RationalWiki:Saloon bar/Archive398

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, (new)(back)

Thoughts on the new duck photos on Reddit?

They kinda of weird. FriedBeef (talk) 07:24, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

What? BeardOfZeus (talk) 07:25, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

I don't use Reddit much, and only for tropical cyclones (its been quiet), so honestly, IDK about those. If the tropical wave off Florida develops (10% chance), I'll be more active there as it would cause substantial damage. Andrew5 (talk) 12:15, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

I do (a few specific subs and an occasional peak at /all just to see what memes and outrage the masses are recycling again). This user is just trollin'. But at least in a dada fashion. I'll allow it. Quack. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 13:46, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

He probs not a troll. Just a guy with weird questions. BeardOfZeus (talk) 04:22, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

I, for one, welcome our new Duck Foto Redditt Overlords!Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 14:30, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Debt Ceiling Crisis

https://news.yahoo.com/mcconnell-offers-democrats-2-month-194023089.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall

Thanks to the Republicans and a few Democrats (vote out incompetence in 2022), we are in the midst of a debt ceiling crisis that could have catastrophic economic repercussions. If something is not done and the US debt defaults, it could cause damage to not only the US currency but other currencies backed by the US dollar. With the current compromise GOP minority leader Moscow Mitch Mitch McConnell is offering would only be a Band-Aid and not a cure. Even if a solution is reached, there will still be economic damage. This should be interesting. --Channel 48 EAS (talk) 21:28, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

It's only news if no one blinks, and after n times of political theater and song-and-dance (since the days of Newt Gingrich! Ah, 26 years of government dysfunction...) no one cares until that event actually happens. I am actually a bit surprised that Mitch McConnell is going through this song and dance routine again because the previous two times McConnell actually got close enough to spook the markets, the fallout ended up temporarily hurting Republicans more than anyone else. I guess the idiotic Randdroids that pull McConnell's strings, and still seem to think that (despite all evidence) somehow the debt ceiling threat will get Congress to balance the budget, have to be humored. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 00:06, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

...I miss Bill Clinton. Never again would a President look at a budget surplus and say "ok, let's pay down the debt". Instead it's all but guaranteed they'd spend it on whatever bullshit their party was pushing for. CorruptUser 14:02, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Vote Libertarian. Democrats don't want to stop spending. Republicans kind of act like they want to stop spending but continue voting to spend almost as much as (and sometimes much much more than) their Democratic "opponents". The Red vs. Blue war they've created is a never ending cycle for people to collect tax payer money to do meaningless shit. ^{— Unsigned, by: 2.23.183.186 / talk}

Microtransactions in Games

I wanted to know what the counter was to their point that it's like "putting quarters in an arcade machine". Because when I grew up we had complete games where you had to unlock things like characters and stages, etc. Now it seems like every new game I get requires me to pay for extra characters or features, or that they deliberately make the game awful and then sell the solution to you. It makes me sad to see what gaming has become and it's turning me off in general. I know it's not like putting quarters in a machine because at least the game in the machine is complete and you're paying for a try at it. I'm not even sure I want to buy another "incomplete" game at this point.Machina (talk) 04:15, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

I have no idea what sort of noise I just heard from the nearest forest, but I understand what you mean, Machina, though I've found a fair few enjoyable games recently that haven't gone that route. Steam Early Access is an iffy concept, and one or two franchises I've enjoyed in the past have taken two years to get to a point since publishing date to get to a good place. Some others, gold (in the old sense of gone gold) from the beginning. "Insert coin carefully" has become my mantra. Kntai (talk) 10:22, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

70 quid for new title these days. 70 fucking quid. thats getting stupid and they still holding back stuff to weasel more out of you. i never pay full price for a game these days. even with all the knobs and whistles included aaa titles dont really excite me. 2-3 quid for something on sale that isnt from a franchise i know what to expect from. any more and it starts to feel like a waste if you bought shit game. and im cheap. its hit or miss quality wise, paid 20p for zombie game i thought might interest the nephew on their next visit for little whiles. not even worth the 20p. utter wank, but 20 pence? i can take a punt. another time, got a really simple looking thing but had couch coop, again for when the nephew visits, cost pound, spent hours playing the thing , was really fun. 70 quid for the new assassins creed game not quite a punt, you kind of know what you getting, which is kind of the problem. AMassiveGay (talk) 11:20, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

The problem I have with AAA titles for almost a decade has been that they're either predictable, trying to become franchises, or are predictable franchises as you said. I can't stomach AC anymore. On the upside, all of this disappointment has led me to having Is There Any Deal? in my stack of tabs. Occasionally I've found good deals like ten bucks for Disco Elysium or Witcher III (which I will say is for me the game to beat for me after it supplanted Baldur's Gate II/first two Mass Effects.) Of course, it helps in being cheap when you only have a five year-old budget laptop like I do. Kntai (talk)

back when i was a kid, never had the cash to buy new stuff on a whim like i can as a grown up with income, and could only expect a new game for the spectrum birthdays and christmas. so id play the shjt out what ever i had. its all i had. hours of entertainment (less loading times which were considerable, ie start the tape go for nice walk come in check the progress and maybe it abut to finish. or it had crashed. fuck you computer). nowadays im bored whats on the xbox, dozens of games installed, twice that library. awww i got nothing i wanna play. whats on sale? fuck it i will watch a movie. whats on netflix? i cant decide. life is too hard. AMassiveGay (talk) 13:30, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Paradox is painful when it comes to obviously planning for DLC, Stellaris costs $220(!) for everything, but the base game is still a full game. Best to wait for anything to be on sale for 50% off or more, plus the base game itself is often 75% off, and once in a blue moon it may even be free. All the DLC and extras really did have a lot of work put into them, because right now, I can't think of a single major sci-fi trope or story that isn't already integrated into the game at this point. Babylon 5's Shadow War? Robot Apocalypse? Extra-dimensional invasion? Invading alien swarm? Jedi vs Xenomorphs? Larry Niven's Ringworld? Genetically engineer humans to be extra delicious? All in the base game. Heck, even Russell's Teapot is an actual event in the game. The DLC lets you play as Necromongers from Riddick, The Borg, The Terminator, overzealous nanny-bots (my favorite, personally), the Zerg from WH40k Starcraft, you name it it's there somewhere.

Absolute worst for DLC? Phuqqing Maxis. Sims 4? Not going to even bother adding it up myself, but even with half the stuff on sale it's currently $560. Their Simcity games take core features from the prior games and made them into an expansion in the new one. In fairness, SimCity 4 was the best city-game until Skylines, another Paradox game, but at least Skylines itself was a complete game without the DLC. CorruptUser 13:51, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Dude, CK2 and EU4 absolutely reamed me. Not having any natural resistance to grand strategy and getting dropped into worlds in which the glorious Roman Empire can be restored to its birthright (or made into something greater and Buddhist or Norse) probably meant around a thousand dollars over the years. Artificius (talk) 22:42, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Ugh, the Paradox Disease. I've managed to get by with their base games aside from the CK2 freebies that were given out a year or so ago. EU IV was free a little while ago: I'm living a good life with it. What really irks me is that two of my favorite settings are under their ownership right now, and I will be so annoyed if they mess them up. One of them they already did—with those DLCs. But I guess it could be worse: Elite Dangerous comes to mind. Kntai (talk) 11:46, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

You think we're warming up, but

Antarctica had its coldest winter on record.Andrew5 (talk) 13:42, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

...and? We've only been keeping records for so long. If we keep records for 100 years, 1% of all places should have a new record each year for "coldest ever recorded" and another 1% "hottest ever recorded". Instead we are seeing relatively fewer new cold records and more hot records, not 0 new cold records. CorruptUser 13:47, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Thats true. Here in the New York metro area, I can say Memorial Day weekend 2021 broke records for record low high temperatures. The first day got to only 51°F (11°C) and the next still only hit 52°F (11°C). Many cities in Texas hit all time lows in February 2021. But none being this substantial. Andrew5 mobile (talk) 14:23, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Experts are urging people to read into Antarctica's winter temperatures with caution, however. One single season of extreme temperatures, whether hot or cold, shouldn't be used to analyze entire climate trends.

“One cold winter is interesting but doesn’t change the long-term trend, which is warming,” University of Washington Atmospheric Sciences Professor Eric Steig told The Post.

--It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 14:36, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

♬ooooOOOOOooooohhhh, If you want to be possessive, it's just "I-t-s", and if it's supposed to be a contraption then it's "I-t-apostrophe-s", scalawag ♬ Rockford the Roe ^{boop my snoot}_{praise Oscar Wilde} 14:44, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

A climate system is being destabilized. There will be extreme temperatures on both sides of the spectrum. --Channel 48 EAS (talk) 21:49, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

This 100%. It's less who's getting warmer and who's getting colder, and more things like how the Arizona/New Mexico fall monsoon is shifting westward and now hits California, or the continuous weakening of the Atlantic current. Semipenultimate (talk) 22:09, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes. In a system in which the temperature has been destabilized by global heathig we would not (or should not) expect to see the same changes everywhere.

We unquestionably see a uniform rise in average global temperatures, and we also see local fluctuations. There is literally nothing to be learnt from one data point from one point on the globe: there is everything to be learnt from multiple data points on multiple points on the globe.Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 14:27, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Met Police Advice and Sarah Everard's kidnapping and murder

Can we talk about how fucking insane the Metropolitan Police's advice is regarding the Sarah Everard kidnapping and murder? Flag down a fucking bus? Yeah, okay so you're a bus driver, and you see a person running away from a police officer, in handcuffs, in what logical world is the response, "Yeah I should definitely let this person on my bus, it couldn't end in a hostage situation." Like all of the suggestions, bar calling 999 are absolute trash for the same obvious reason, and the 999 one is trash because why the fuck would a rouge officer let you call 999?

Like that's the thing here, that these dipshits like Phillip Allott don't seem to get, beyond the obvious bullshit-ness of the idea of pushing the problem onto women. If a police officer was about to fucking murder this person, why the fuck would they just let them call 999, or concede they're right, coronavirus regs aren't arrestable. They are about to commit a serious crime, why the fuck would they give a shit about shit like that?

Also, this statement, about covid rules not being arrestable offenses, is fucking false, given a bunch of women got arrested for coronavirus regulations at the vigil for Sarah Everard, by the fucking Met Police on March 13, 10 days after Everard's murder. The Met Police also concluded their conduct there was justified. So, apparently, you could get arrested, it would seem, Philip. Apparently Phillp Allott, North Yorkshire Police Commissioner should study up on what's an arrestable vs non-arrestable offense.--NavigatorBR (Talk) - 02:37, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

Stinks of the nearly farcical "blame the victim" rhetoric trotted out for years by countless institutions. In this case, it's not our fault we hired a headcase, it's not our fault we allowed him to behave in such a manner. It's not our fault our members laugh about such things in a whatsapp group. No, it's purely the fault of the woman who should have known he was in the wrong to arrest her. Yadda, yadda, yadda. Remember the kettling incident which resulted in Ian Tomlinson being, we might as well not be polite here, murdered by the police? Or Jean Charles de Menezes chased and killed for looking a bit foreign. And the Met tried to blame these people for their own deaths. Fuck the metropolitan police force, and fuck their tactics. Cardinal Chang (talk) 11:10, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/04/wayne-couzens-case-how-do-you-lose-your-job-in-the-police It doesn't help that they had red flags about the guy 6 Years before it happened, and the vetting process that allowed him to even get into that position of power completely failed to notice that he had received those complaints. You'd think they'd keep that on record, or if they did, at least bother to check it. 86.10.101.16 (talk) 07:43, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

And on a different note, look at Paris and the revelation of who Pockmark was, fucking hell. Cardinal Chang (talk) 11:10, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

The only successful change in policing attitudes which are possible are ones which incentivise change. Anything less than that is doomed to fail. A similar change has happened in some country's medical systems and with some airlines. It starts with removing the fear of repercussions if pilots and doctors admit they make mistakes, creating a system where everyone learns from them, rewarding those who make meaningful changes and demonstrating AND enabling the benefits for all when this happens. Some Scandanavian countries have had success with this (for example Norway). Other countries are only just now admitting there "may" be a problem such as Canada and the UK (with systemic resistance to any actual change) while many policing forces in the United States won't even admit there is a problem. When there are no consequences for rotten behaviour, no incentive to change...they will keep looking for solutions that put the burden on everyone else...like the government pouring in more money and the victims having to "be more careful". Change isn't happening because the governments also don't have an incentive to change the policeforce. This is one case where citizens are responsible...for not giving their government an incentive to change the police force. That requires vocalising ones stance and activism in notable numbers. ShabiDOO 11:27, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

@Shabidoo “It starts with removing the fear of repercussions if pilots and doctors admit they make mistakes, creating a system where everyone learns from them, rewarding those who make meaningful changes and demonstrating AND enabling the benefits for all when this happens.” You say “removing the fear of repercussions if pilots and doctors admit they make mistakes”—this seems too general: I doubt that we could remove the “fear of repercussions” for all mistakes, and I also doubt that simply admitting one made a mistake, is going to help remove fear of punishment across the board. Moreover, how do we assess what a “meaningful change” is? Furthermore, a meaningful change won’t necessarily result in “benefits for all.”

“Some Scandanavian countries have had success with this (for example Norway)”—please could you provide some reliable sources for this claim. “Other countries are only just now admitting there "may" be a problem such as Canada and the UK (with systemic resistance to any actual change)”—Again, please provide sources, and what exactly is “systemic resistance” as opposed to say “moderate resistance” how do we identify one of these nebulous predications from the other.

“When there are no consequences for rotten behaviour, no incentive to change...they will keep looking for solutions that put the burden on everyone else...like the government pouring in more money and the victims having to "be more careful".”—This sentence of yours is, in effect, claiming two relations of deductive logical consequence: (1) there is no punishment (positive or negative) for observable behaviour we wish to reduce in the police force Entails (C1) that they will seek to modify the public’s behaviour via new normative policy e.g. new legislation or new permissions for the public; and (2) there is currently no sufficient incentive that could act as a reinforcer (positive or negative) for changing the observable behaviour of the public Entails (C1) that they will seek to seek to modify the public’s behaviour, and not the police’s behaviour, via new normative policy e.g. new legislation or new permissions. However, it is incorrect construe these logical consequence relations as deductive, as they are inductive relations; you can say, at most, that “When there are no consequences for rotten behaviour, no incentive to change” probably entails such and such consequences. However, without statistical evidence and an assessment of your Bayesian priors, this chain of reasoning is, at best, plausible (or intuitive). As a matter of fact, the majority of your reasoning here is just sophistry—plausible but neither valid nor, as this is an inductive argument, cogent. The Judge (talk) 00:45, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

I would normally go to the effort of looking up the sources or articles I read and paste them and responding to the criticisms made, and I am more than happy to admit I am not even close to an expert and could be wrong, but this reeks of the beginning of ridiculous pointless sea-lioning and petty deconstruction of multiple arguments and pointless nick-picking of "terms" to the highest degree I can only roll my eyes. "What is the difference between systemic change and moderate change"? Fuck off. You are quite a clever person "The Judge". ShabiDOO 08:40, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

@Shabidoo True, my argument is incredibly pedantic, but my intention was not to Sea Lion. The only reason I commented at such length, and in such excruciating detail, was because I wholeheartedly agree with your argument (I would like to see these improvements): systemic change is needed and a suitable incentive is necessary to achieve this. My complaint, (which admittedly, I articulated rather poorly) is about how we cash out such changes in respectable terms; my concern is that these ostensibly promising ideas of yours, will not translate easily into workable policy. “You are quite a clever person The Judge”—Oh, I do love a sarcastic compliment. The Judge (talk) 16:30, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

The comment was not sarcastic and excuse my reaction but after having read it again it is hard to understand how you agreed with me. I'll take your word for it. As per changes in the aviation industry and the medical industry, I cannot find the recent article I read, though there is a more dated article that discusses the general concepts before they were implemented (it is from 2014 so it doesn't really cover the changes in practice in the NHS). https://www.newstatesman.com/uncategorized/2014/06/how-mistakes-can-save-lives The general idea is not to create a system where police would not pay a consequence for serious errors (like wanton brutality or crimes like rape and murder), but an environment of accepting fallibility and learning from mistakes. This has radically changed two industries (including one in the civil service where a great deal of trust is placed in people with power) where admitting errors does not necessarily end your career and can help others. Here is a report which briefly outlines reforms in NZ and four Northern European countries including Norway. https://www.gov.scot/publications/evaluation-police-fire-reform-year-4-international-perspectives-police-fire-reform/pages/14/ This article discusses changes in Norway, Finland and a region in Northern Germany, reforming not just police services but the education of police and a concerted effort to demilitarise police including concepts like community policing, de-escalation and demilitarisation. https://academic.oup.com/policing/advance-article/doi/10.1093/police/paab050/6352555 As for how to actually implement it? I have absolutely no clue. But I don't believe anything will change unless governments have an incentive to reform police (something unlikely to happen without activism in notable numbers) and police are incentivised to admit they need to reform and actually reform (something that obviously requires very well formed policies, well implemented, well funded with clear intention of meaningful change). I wouldn't have the slightest clue how to go about implementing it not least of all because there isn't remotely enough research done on comparative policing. I only know that reforms are happening at a glacial pace in some jurisdictions but that it is possible to have police forces that are well educated and trained, know how to deescalate and improve and are less despised by notable numbers in their communities. ShabiDOO 18:26, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Pandora Papers

Jesus Christ, the biggest financial leak in history has just occured. What does everyone here think will happen as a result of these leaks? IMO, I think there will be some big protests, maybe some violent riots or (if we are really lucky) a revolution like the Arab Spring. Beyond that, I don't want to shoot my bolt. An Advocate (talk) 21:14, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

People will gripe, people will groan, and then the system will chug on as per usual. Don't expect anything special. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 21:19, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

I know, and although I can't completely rule out the chance of real change, I think you will be right in the end. An Advocate (talk) 21:25, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

The Panama Papers did cause a few embarrassments and did IMHO help sprearhead a little bit of tax code / haven / etc. tightening such as slow progress on a minimum corporate tax rate. Nothing too big, but it wasn't nothing. Maybe a bit of that will happen here. But if it's a culture that thrives on corruption and inequality, expect nothing but temporary embarrassment and reshuffling.

The big problem here is that, when people hear about it, I do think there is a vague awareness that the rich are behaving naughty here. But the details of how the tax avoidance happens is dry finance talk. And dry financial talk bores people.( For a start, you have to understand what a "shell corporation" is to know what is going on, how many people know of that offhand?) So people aren't probably going to be as pissed as they should be, and certain types will continue to direct their outrage at trivialities such as the supposed "wokeness" of My Little Pony that, in the end, mean nothing.

That being said, it's pretty clear that, for the moment, these top-dog wealthy big wig tax-dodging finance firms have the same lousy IT security practices as, say, Epik. So, unless this situation changes, the leaks probably shall continue... PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 00:26, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

(One interesting side note though as a little "point to ponder": In these days, thanks to meme stocks, a fair bit more people have a little bit more exposure to the World of Finance than in 2016. Doubt it matters to be honest, but perhaps maybe the Superstonk brigade will surprise me.) PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 00:52, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

No - we are inured to the excesses of the powerful - and many of these folk are dictators, "strongmen" or whatever...... in some of their cultures this is seen as desirable in a leader. Nothing will change - greed is eternal. Aloysius the Gaul (talk) 21:37, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

People weren't boycotting Facebook en masse after the Cambridge Analytica scandal. I doubt much will come out of this either. LongStylus (talk) 22:09, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Nothing will come of it. Revenant Raven (talk) 22:23, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

When a government has no incentive to change something, it will not change. No one anywhere is giving any government remotely sufficient incentive to clamp down on blatant massive tax evasion/tax fraud, enormous tax loopholes, multi-level shell companies and tax havens. It won't change until governments are motivated enough to change them. Even the most well meaning party will alienate important supporters, encounter vicious resistance and come acorss serious hurdles to making real changes. I don't suppose any world leaders at the moment are Keanau Reeves with a whole bunch of digital magic tricks up their sleves? These papers may results in perhaps 0.5% change at best. ShabiDOO 23:19, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

As mentioned above, don't expect much grumbling from below. That said, there were some interesting revelations that I've seen so far that might have effect: 1) Some but not all of the information showed criminal activity: that could result in prosecutions 2) The PP data did show that the sanctions against Russian oligarchs did have an effect: costing them money and forcing them into more opaque schemes 3) The UK royals purchased a property in the UK from a sanctioned central Asian dictator (Uzbekistan? I forgot which one) giving him $44 million or so profit. Tsk tsk. The body responsible for the transaction claimed ignorance, but PP showed lack of due diligence. Bongolian (talk) 03:06, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

The basic problem I have with all this is that everyone thinks these leaks will only affect People Who Deserve It^TM. Before anything else, and similar to whoever leaked Darth Cheeto's tax information, this is supposed to be confidential information; there's no "but it affects People Who Deserve It^TM" exception. I have nothing to hide about my tax returns, but I don't want some random loser with an inflated sense of... whatever... to be putting my tax information out there for everyone to see. I'm not sorry, before I can worry about any of the leaked information, I don't want random self-appointed Guardians Of What Is Right And Good deciding the law doesn't apply to them. I would never accept my bank or credit card holders pulling a stunt like that, why would it be remotely appropriate for some random dickhead with some government access to do the same thing? The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 04:42, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

"Let me tell you about the very rich. They are different from you and me." — F. Scott Fitzgerald. Bongolian (talk) 05:53, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Do you know what an offshore shell corporation is? Do you have one in place to shield yourself from taxes? If not, shut the fuck up. And if you do, tell your offshorefincorps to actually practice good IT practices for once so you can avoid taxes with confidence or something. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 12:40, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm perfectly aware of what an offshore shell corporation is, and I have no sympathy for the people caught up in this. Doesn't mean I have to like the idea of people deciding confidentiality laws don't apply to them. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 13:21, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Hackers, one way or another, don't generally give a shit about "confidentiality laws", whether they are breaking into Epik or holding infrastructure hostage with ransomware for Bitcoin or hacking into the DNC or stealing NSA shit. It is my opinion that these tax avoidance firms, who happen to deal with clients that are fairly well off, should be able to pay IT personal enough to, y'know, actually secure their client's information. (Unless the problem is that there is enough "discontent" internally in some of these money management corporations to the point where it's internal employees doing the leaks, ala Snowden. In which case, good luck.) The folks who leaked this indeed are breakin' the law. So are the Epik hackers and Edward Snowden and anyone not state sponsored ala the Putin sponsored DNC hacks. But if you are anonymous and hide behind 7 proxies and are crossing international boundaries (the corporations involved are in Belize, Seychelles, the British Virgin Islands and a few other places) who will find out and how will they prosecute? So when dealing with financial firms especially, in this current internet world, you want to find firms that take IT security seriously, and not invoke cybersecurity by demon curses. BTW governments as far as I know aren't involved, my impression is that the leaks came from offshore financial firms in the line of the now departed Mossack Fonseca. (Any firm involved in this latest leak probably is also likely to become an ex-firm.) PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 13:59, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Maybe it would have an effect on Ukraine (Zelenskyi is also being named)? The latest polls showed that his party is dropping significantly, but he's apparently still pretty popular and even rising. It's still 3 years before the next elections (2 years before Parliamentary elections), but the other presidential candidates could use this as a weapon to lure voters over. Maybe even call for snap elections (I know this happened in another East-European country (somewhere in the 2000's), but I can remember which one it was.)? It could happen. 2A02:1812:2C66:D000:6110:E2BF:496:7587 (talk) 08:33, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia has made a list of people that have been named: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_named_in_the_Pandora_Papers 2A02:1812:2C66:D000:6110:E2BF:496:7587 (talk) 12:43, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Sad to see Ringo Starr on that list. Nothing is sacred. LongStylus (talk) 16:26, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

It's all that Thomas the Tank Engine money, rolling in it he is. And needs to squirrel it away from the Fat Controller. Cardinal Chang (talk) 16:42, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

I wouldn't hold it against anyone who used a legal strategy to avoid taxes, it's what you do. Any fault lies in governments allowing this. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 18:01, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘From a live conversation with Washington Post reporters in response to a question on the relevance of the Pandora Papers:[1]

“”From the start, we understood that even though the data in this trove is vast — nearly 12 million files — it is just a piece of the puzzle, or rather millions of pieces to millions of puzzles. Whether the exposure will bring about change depends on how people react to the stories. Certainly, if you take the Panama Papers as an example, the leaders of at least two countries lost their positions and millions of dollars in unpaid taxes were recouped by countries around the globe.

—Paul Sonne

Bongolian (talk) 20:01, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

A bunch of people might get the sack because of it, as they get exposed. Don't count on it though, best you can hope for is that someone actually does a crackdown on corruption. These kinds of leaks do actually matter, consider that in 2019 The conservative majority government in the UK deliberately tried to stop a report from their intelligence committee in an investigation of Russian influences of UK politics, until "after" the general elections. Even the people who are beneficiaries of corruption are showing us through their actions that these kinds of leaks matter, otherwise, why bother trying to stop them? Why the secrecy in the first place if their appearance means nothing? Clearly, not even the culprits think it is wise to give up any veil of secrecy. So yeah, it matters. What this should signal to these people is that it's only going to get even worse as time goes on, and their gold nest eggs keep on getting unearthed. One can only hope they don't just defer to arrogance as usual. 86.10.101.16 (talk) 07:56, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

A poem for autumn

Lo! I am come to autumn,

When all the leaves are gold;

Grey hairs and golden leaves cry out

The year and I are old.

In youth I sought the prince of men,

Captain in cosmic wars,

Our Titan, even the weeds would show

Defiant, to the stars.

But now a great thing in the street

Seems any human nod,

Where shift in strange democracy

The million masks of God.

In youth I sought the golden flower

Hidden in wood or wold,

But I am come to autumn,

When all the leaves are gold.

—G.K. Chesterton “Golden Leaves”. Sapere aude 12:01, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

OK, I give up first. Why am I reading this?Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 14:39, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

[ec]Nice! Unfortunately, fall will start much warmer then average (and where I live, while the days are somewhat near average, the nights keep getting around 7°F (4°C) above average.) Andrew5 (talk) 14:40, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

i dont think it has anything to do with climate change. its a poem for god botherers AMassiveGay (talk) 19:13, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Being a New Englander I was always more partial to Robert Frost, who we'll happily accept as one of our own even if he has to do the reverse pioneer to get here. One of his two most famous poems inspired the name of a local brewery that now has a huge regional presence, and the other even has a recording of the man himself reading it. Also, thanks to Loreena McKennitt setting The Highwayman to music, I've also gotten a taste for Alfred Noyes, who though he was Welsh married an American and spent a lot of time on this side of the pond; also seemed like one of the relatively few poets who acted like he came from planet Earth. There's even a 78 of him reciting The Highwayman, which someone was kind enough to record and put on YouTube. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:12, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

A question to those of you who have deep knowledge of philosophies

Any of you know where the concept of "Eternity" first originated? I know Plato wrote something about it in Timaeus, but was the idea mentioned by any earlier Mediterranean philosophers? And what about Chinese and Indian philosophies and religions. I don't think Judaism has such concept, because there's a definite begining, where God just sort of popped up I guess. Same for Christianity and Islam of course, but those are moot since Plato preceded them.

Anyway, sorry about the weird question. I just had an earworm today, a Finnish song from 80s with a line "Some madman/-woman has invented eternity". So I started thinking "who was that mad person anyway?" Knight Commander^{In Service}_{To Her}^Goatness 20:50, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

The presocratic Greek philosophers (from whom Western philosophy as we know it emerged) used the term aperion, which can be translated as "without limit" which could be infinite and/or indefinite. For example Anaximander proposed that the origin of our existence was infinite (somehow) and suggested that this extends into the future (eternal motion exists). We know of aperion through the works of Hesiod and greek myth which predates the pre-socratic philosophers. Though the work of the pre-socratic only survives in small fragments and not much of substance can be extracted from it except the environment in which classical philosophy developed. Having said all of this, they absolutely did not come up with the concept of eternity, they were simply the first philosophers to (as they were the first "philosophers" as we define it in the Western tradition). Eternity was already used in ancient Mesopotamian, Egyptian and Hindu texts. I would also be surprised if they weren't also in ancient Chinese texts (though you'd have to look into that yourself). I would guess that the concept of "eternity" is as old as the first "human", however you would like to define that. Once the ability to use abstract ideas and the drive to invent strange explanations behind things emerged...it is hard to imagine "eternity" didn't also. Eternity as we think of it (a universe without spacial or temporal limits) is a far newer game. As for the creation myths of Christianity and Islam, those were borrowed from Judaism which definitely came before Western philosophy, and that was likely borrowed from elements of Mesopotamian and Egyptian religion. TL;DR...philosophically it came from the pre-socratics, as a general concept? Way before any modern religions we are familiar with did. ShabiDOO 22:09, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks Shabi. Now I'm reading the Wikipedia articles on Apeiron and Anaximander. This is how I learn things. Knight Commander^{In Service}_{To Her}^Goatness 22:20, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Seems like you could come to a general sense of endlessness by being a primitive human who had learned to count his nuts and realized that he could count forever if he tried. 86.10.101.16 (talk) 01:20, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Before you think our edit warring is bad

Wikipedia is currently having a lame image war for Hurricane Sam, see wp:Talk:2021 Atlantic hurricane season#Which_image_of_Sam_we_should_use. There were also countless other discussions so much so that it reached wp:Wikipedia:Lamest_edit_wars/Images#2020_Atlantic_hurricane_season. There are many others, see wp:Talk:Hurricane Grace and wp:Talk:Typhoon Surigae among others. Andrew5 (talk) 01:44, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Amazing, there was a fucking edit war over the BR Class 142, one of the shitiest classes of diesel multi-units and absolutely not worth people arguing over its picture. Also this quote from the BR Class 142's talk page, early in the war:

"[Editor A] and [Editor B] please stop reverting each other's edits. It isn't helping anyone. A similar series of events on British Rail Class 153 ended up on WP:LAME, and this could soon be joining it."

I love that it was held up as a threat, and someone followed through on it.--NavigatorBR (Talk) - 04:36, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

That’s not exactly how it worked, but yeah, it did wind up on WP:LAME.Andrew5 mobile (talk) 10:46, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

My favorite, from many years ago, was the silliness at Gadsby (novel). Also on LAME, the discussions have to be read to be believed. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 17:30, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia has long since been going through reprobation, the way the site works was always its greatest strength and biggest weakness. In other words: This is not the first nor the last time something of this scale happens. (Profile) - (Spoke!) 16:28, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

I actually remember participating in a few discussions for image edit wars, such as this one. But it wasn't as bad, it wasn't as multiple and it wasn't nearly as annoying as it seems to be. That one was so lame though, as there was a five minute difference (same day (i think 11/3), one was 0350 UTC and one was 0355.) Andrew5 (talk) 19:09, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

When people claim that a friend or family members died from the COVID vaccine on social media

I noticed something, one person will post contradictory stories in the same comment section of an article pertaining to COVID. It is completely sickening and in extremely poor taste. --Channel 48 EAS (talk) 23:18, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Blizzard alert!

100mph winds, up to 30 inches of snow projected across the Rocky Interior]. Could also bring strong tornadoes, similar to the October 2013 North American storm complex, one of my notable storms. Andrew5 (talk) 19:15, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

When it happened

In the beginning, it is easy to overlook the role of the individual to improve his or her status as a good citizen or of humanity by helping others and in doing so you bring about the common good. It must be pointed out that this kind of person is not for everyone, but may contribute to a person by serving others. In the end, it is important to have people work within the community to improve their own lives by assisting others and in doing so you are helping to build hope. BogWhale (talk) 04:43, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Dr. Markov, is that you? Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 04:52, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Nobel Prizes are being awarded.

Wonder who's gonna win this year? BeardOfZeus (talk) 22:53, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Oh dang some climate scientist winners. My favorite part of the whole article is Parisi standing sassily while on the phone. Probliknaut (talk) 01:39, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

I was surprised when I saw climate scientist were winning this year. That's cool BeardOfZeus (talk) 04:58, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

I have absolutely no idea why that would surprise you. Shouldn't the best and most important science be rewarded?Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 14:33, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

I'd say the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics this year was the single most important in a decade, at least. I'm really glad they won. Austrians and Pos-Keynesians are pissed, which is always a good sign. Angrish and Imbens made a real revolution in experimental economics. Of course, I don't think the more abstract approach of the social sciences will ever disappear, but it's more accurate then ever thanks to these two guys. If anyone wanna know more, check a book called Mastering Metrics: the path from cause to effect. I don't know why it isn't on my guide. Probably because I didn't have time to add it yet. Same reason why I haven't write about the other guy that won the Nobel today, David Card on the minimum wage article . GeeJayK (talk) 02:17, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Will COVID tests end up becoming an important key to ending this pandemic?

Last Wednesday, the White House announced a plan to rapidly increase COVID test availability. This might sound a bit bizarre, but honestly, COVID tests might be extremely important right now to ending this pandemic. I've noticed something lately; most people who are against COVID vaccines generally don't have any problem with producing negative COVID tests. The main obstacle with tests at the moment is costs, but that's primarily due to limited quantity, so increasing test availability should reduce costs to at least an affordable level (probably not to the point where they're free, but far less than the $150 average). So, if anti-vaxers are willing to do that, why stop them? Further, requiring a COVID vaccine while not allowing a test as an alternative can easily spread that conspiracy of the vaccine trying to kill everyone all across the internet. In other words, not allowing COVID tests can actually increase vaccine hesitancy, not reduce it. But allowing a negative COVID test can help extinguish that conspiracy. Idk, it makes sense to me; anyone who wants the shot can get one, anyone who doesn't gets tested, BOOM, everyone's happy and the pandemic dies out. Sounds like a huge win if you ask me. Obviously not trying to bash vaccination here, but remember, vaccination isn't really the ultimate goal; the ultimate goal is to end the pandemic, which vaccination and COVID tests are designed to do. There are a few drawbacks to COVID tests over vaccines, like frequency for example, but I also think vaccines have drawbacks over tests, like side effects. But again, I'm not calling either one of them bad, I just don't think it's a bad idea if COVID tests are a choice for most people, in fact, it's possible that it could end the pandemic much faster. Aaronmichael5 21:42, 11 October 2021 (UTC).

The USA has a lot of people who received a poor education who also place a premium on their rights/privacy. The USA will never catch up with countries with a high vaccination rate and excellent contact tracing. Moving to a high vaccination state is the best you can do. Cygon (talk) 22:35, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Making fun of science deniers is so much damn fun (Thank you Lowbrow Productions)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMAsdQzCSpQ

Jabs at science denialists and Trump. Too funny. --Channel 48 EAS (talk) 17:24, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

I too like to bully those who are weaker, physically, mentally, or socially than I am. 86.10.101.16 (talk) 01:23, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Doesn't leave you with a lot of options then, does it? Cardinal Chang (talk) 21:30, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Racism and Ableism in one go: This is why corrupt cops should be held accountable

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/11/us/dayton-ohio-police-black-paraplegic-man/index.html?utm_content=2021-10-11T12%3A00%3A22&utm_term=link&utm_source=fbCNN&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR1fEFCpLhk5oXACRT-rCrVRfB7_viZKc81z1NP6hClPy874Q8C5_L63ixk

A wheelchair bound African-American was pulled over in a traffic stop. He had a car meant for wheelchair bound people; due to this he needed special assistance to get out. So these corrupt monsters pulled him out of the car by his hair and beat the living shit out of him. Keep in mind that the only thing in his car was money and no drugs (more details in the article).

Playing the Devil's Advocate here- lets pretend for a moment that he did do something wrong like denialists claim. It is up to a court to decide, not the cops. How difficult is it to comprehend? Hold these crooks accountable for their crimes. --Channel 48 EAS (talk) 16:09, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

What is so vile and filthy and immoral and inhuman and sickening is that some police forces, most especially many American ones, completely approve of these cops cruelty and pointless wrecklessness. The Dayton police said it was the right thing to do. Dragging him along the road till his pants fell off. Jamming his face into the pavement. Chucking his shoes into his car. Kneeling on the back of a non-violent disabled person. Unwilling to even pretend to call a supervisor to build trust with a vulnerable citizen. All Infront of his son. They cannot do wrong, will not learn from mistakes and continue to increase the number of people who despise them. They will defend the most outrageous shit short of shooting an unarmed person in the back...and even them sometimes they justify that shit. I would bet an eternity in hell they would not have dragged an old white disabled lady out of the car if she asked them to call a supervisor. I hope he gets millions. And if there was any justice it would come out of the paychecks of these terrible cops and all those who congratulated them for a job well done. ShabiDOO 17:11, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

When a police officer tells you to get out of the car, you are legally required to get out. Whether the officer had "probable cause" is something that gets decided by the courts, not you. Your attorney can argue the "fruit of the rotten tree" doctrine that would exonerate you from any criminal charges if the officer didn't have probable cause. He wasn't just "incapable" of getting out, he refused to let the officer assist him out. Then when they tried to grab his arm, he still tried to stay in the car. It's disturbing, yes, but the officers weren't technically in the wrong.

EDIT- I'm currently trying to find what officers are supposed to do with disabled suspects, because it's pretty obvious his car was modified for disabled people so it wasn't like he was making it all up. I'd hope there's a better way than dragging someone by the hair and throwing them to the ground... CorruptUser 19:30, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

You'd hope? Yes there is a better way. Almost any other way is a better way. Unfortunately this is just another sad example of American cops on a violent power trip. "Gun, badge, pretend they're on TV." Republicans are doing almost nothing to address this (unsurprisingly). Democrats are way too disorganized and chaotic (even by their own normally low standards) on this issue to even come close to a solution. Some of them are taking the phrase "Defund the Police" a little too literally, not realizing that they're advocating for anarchism. There is one party that has an organized, rational, and easily achievable solution. I'll just keep quixotically hoping they get the chance.

Oh, and in case anyone missed this atrocity: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/police-pepper-spray-9-year-old-girl-rochester-n-y-n1256313 — ^{— Unsigned, by: 12.23.183.186 / talk}

Any time a story of this manner is shared I always read the article and find out, "gee this isn't quite the incident acab types make it out to be." --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 20:47, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

As for pepper spraying a girl, this is a consequence of our system defunding mental health services and then leaving this gap behind for cops to fill in. Cops are trained to deal with neurotypical adults, but people with mental health struggles, especially children, operate in a whole nother realm of logic, which police are horribly underequipped to deal with since that's not their job. Social workers should've been called instead but I also cannot say the police committed exactly an atrocity though they did use way too much force here. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 21:06, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

The fact that numerous Americans consider violently jamming a disabled person's face in the pavement, kneeling on a disabled person's back, pulling them out by the hair and so on, as opposed to investing what may turn out to be a small amount of patience and extra time to avoid this (which is what is expected of police forces in many countries in the civilised developed world)...all as a reasonable response, or at the very least "technically allowed" is insane. It is absolutely deranged. The guy could have been terribly belligerent, verbally abusive and unreasonable...and what these pigs did still would have been reprehensible. I cannot square the endless American narrative of freedom from a controlling government and justifying people arming themselves to the hilt to remain free from undue mistreatment, while applauding police to do shit like this to non-violent citizens. It is grotesque. ShabiDOO 22:21, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Based on events ranging from Waco to the 2021 U.S. Capitol riot, IMHO the type of people you are describing typically are indeed absolutely gun-ho about the American "warrior cop" ethos that leads to bullshit like this... until they end up on the "wrong" side of law enforcement. Then they quickly become the ACABers they like to complain about. I don't care if it's technically correct either, both videos seems to at best indicate some poor decision making on the officers' part. Both situations, particularly the paraplegic, could probably have been de-escalated. This is not "ACAB" moment, because anyone who has visited another developed nation knows that American police are "exceptional", in that they are way too often an asshole when there is no need to be one. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 23:15, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Shabi, it doesn't piss me off all that much for the simple reason that this arrest isn't excessively violent in comparison to most arrests where the suspect is resisting. I suppose that says a lot about the US, but the US really does have a crime problem that isn't comparable to Europe. Blame the poor social safety net. I really can't think of a reasonable situation where a random guy has $22,000 in cash right after leaving a known drug den that doesn't involve something illegal, but innocent until proven guilty and all. CorruptUser 03:35, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure if social security are the main explanation for the higher crime rates in US. I'd usually run a regression, but I'm too tired for that, so let's just make a quick analysis. The top three OECD countries by public social expenditure are France, Finland and Belgium. Nonetheless, Finland and Belgium also have the highest homicide rates in Western Europe (disregarding Lichenstein). Meanwhile, countries with a lower social security spending, like South Korea, Switzerland, Ireland and even Chile have lower homicide rates than US. I agree, this is a very problematic model (we're only analyzing two variables, and in a very poor way, and spending a lot=/=spend effectively, as the Medicare and the Medicaid show us). But while I agree that poor social security leads to higher criminality rates I think there are other variables that are as important as social security. GeeJayK (talk) 04:25, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

There's also the lack of social mobility. The US is sadly becoming less and less mobile than years ago, and if your options are to work 60+ hrs a week at a job paying $10/hr in the hopes that you'll get a promotion to $11/hr, versus make that much money dealing drugs in one afternoon, drugs becomes a logical answer. CorruptUser 04:50, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Nice guess, but I don't think this is the answer either. Social mobility in US is higher than the average OECD. A better guess IMO is inequality. This World Bank paper is 20 years old, but it's very good. I know there are few other similar, more recent studies, but I haven't read any of them. You can skip the methology section if you want. GeeJayK (talk) 05:20, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Quite sure that communist regimes have worse crime problems too. If anything, inequality is a symptom or perhaps has similar causes as crime, but not in itself the cause. CorruptUser 05:38, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure I'd use that last sentence (which sounds like a topic sentence) as truth and veracity, but I fully understand what you mean. Previous convictions for what's been used for, well, since at least 3000 BCE seems absolutely bonkers. So fair points. Thanks for indulging me. Kntai (talk) 12:28, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Humor the "I just created a new account to troll the Salon", it actually might be true ending the War on Some Drugs actually might help reduce a wee bit of the "warrior cop" bullshit in America. Let me know when America becomes less racist, though, seems like many indicators (ranging from the election of Angry Baby to a simple browse of your local racist Nextdoor "community") shows we have a long way to go. Also (throwing my own non-sequitor) let me know when cops actually embrace gun control, because America's gun permissiveness is part of the problem and my general experience tends to be that, polarization being the way they are, many cops tend to be more on the pro-NRA side of things (occupational hazards be damned). PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 13:21, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

From what I understand, petty drug laws are only on the books as a way of side-stepping the normal legal system. Note; I'm not justifying drug laws, rather explain the reason we have them.

Detectives are expensive. A weeklong trial is a week's salary for the Judge, DA, court reporter, public defender, bailiff, police spending time as witnesses, etc, to say nothing of the maintenance of the facility. The average murder trial costs $600k, not including the detective work involved, and if the DA goes for the death penalty, double that amount. For something like burglary, it's less expensive, but we are still talking a six-figure price tag. We could spend that every time a burglar is arrested with no guarantee of a conviction... or... well that burglar had 1 ounce in his apartment, it's much easier and cheaper to prove possession, so we offer a plea deal for a drug charge and then done. That's one of the confounding issues when talking about "oh, most criminals are in there for drugs". No, most criminals have plead down to a drugs charge. CorruptUser 13:24, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Christopher Columbus's Crew

Was Columbus's crew multi-racial?

In the Renaissance Era, and probably up until the modern day, sailing was a job you did when you didn't have options. In the late 15th century, Spain was in the middle of ethnically cleansing itself of all the Moors (and Jews) from its territory, and had announced another round of genocides to be conducted on August 1st 1492, which was just days before Columbus set sail. Even though it was a successful voyage, literally half of the crew died.

Of course, after the voyage was pretty much one of the biggest if not the biggest events of the millennium, Spain would be all too happy to White-wash the crews history and pretend they were all upright Spanish citizens.

So, what fraction of Columbus's crew, if not the man himself, were not ethnic Europeans? CorruptUser 18:59, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Per an old Orlando Sentinel article it was mostly Spaniards and almost all Europeans. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 19:17, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Interesting... they did have a token Black guy... CorruptUser 19:38, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Actually the new generation of young Spanish people (and to a lesser yet still notable extent the last two generations) have a pretty high degree of awareness of their brutal colonial past, do not make apologies or justifications for it as even still some British historians do (i.e. we helped make India better) and engage in little historical flowering. They direct this mostly at their own national history within the peninsula, glossing over their civil war and the Franco era, oppression of regional cultures and other modern occurrences that inconvenience their national narratives. I never met a Spaniard that wasn't embarrassed by how savage Spanish colonialism was, and gaining knowledge that these ships had multi-ethnic crews would, for the most part, be seen as a positive. ShabiDOO 00:05, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

During the age of sail, literally half of all the sailors (and pirates) were Black, or Mulatto, or Mestizo, etc. Like I said, sailing was something for people that didn't have options. As for Columbus, the Pinzon brothers made up two of the captains of Columbus's ships (and a first mate). They had dabbled in piracy throughout their career beforehand; not the nicest fellows. It's not a settled debate, but many scholars believe that at least one of the brothers contracted syphilis during the first voyage, and spread it to Europe. CorruptUser 15:27, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Does it matter or not if the crew was multi racial? I mean all that matters is that all the crew were humans and not aliens from planet Xenu. BeardOfZeus (talk) 23:57, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes, because erasing the contributions of Black/Brown/Asian/Whatever people, good or bad, effectively says to all modern Black people that they were never major players on the world stage and implies that should remain the case. History needs to be taught, warts and all, but it does need to be honest. There have been Sub-Saharan African artists and scientists, culture and music and civilizations. They've been involved in the Age of Exploration one way or another too. Africa was a source of slaves, but many parts were also a destination for slaves, others had been involved in the slave trade and some had nothing to do with it. Some nations had achieved great things and had committed horrific atrocities. But all peoples have been involved in the world. CorruptUser 00:11, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

And it's also helpful to note that not just Africans have been slaves. Pretty much every culture had some form of slavery or fairly close equivalent (hell, look at the root word for "slave" in pretty much every non-Slavic Indo-European language, and even Basque for goodness sake), if you read 1001 Arabian Nights you'll notice frequent clarifications for "black slave" and "white slave". Same with the Ainu people who I enjoy reading about (I even learned to play one of their traditional instruments). It's not as if having historically been subjugated means your culture isn't worth talking about. That said, it's important not to overcorrect too; a lot of Lithuanians have a... creative... interpretation of the Polish-Lithuanian union, which was (depending on who you ask) a shameful capitulation or the plot of some evil Polacks to subjugate the fatherland Lithuania (a line that's also conveniently misrepresented along with the poet who wrote it). The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:27, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

In many ways Greco-Latin slavery was less onerous than American slavery, at least in the cities and away from the industrialized agriculture the Romans developed. The most valuable slave in Rome was an educated Greek; the Greek could teach the language, which in many contexts carried much higher prestige than Latin, and was a part of the education of every Roman of rank. Hard to see that working in the American South. Now, sub-Saharan Africa was unfortunately somewhat cut off from the cultures of Europe and Asia. Before the caravel, it was separated by an impassible desert. Later, add hostile Muslims to the area's hazard. When Egypt was lost to Western Europe, there were not all that many ways to get there, and the trade and cross pollination did not happen for a long time. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 04:13, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

For sure, in antiquity a slave in the right circumstances could achieve some degree of status. But the Ottomans were hardly willing to let the Slavs they conquered achieve anything of the sort, nor were the western Europeans who ended up dealing in them to a surprising degree. Given how very much the world owes to West Africa, especially in mathematics, it's too bad the desert prevented them from greater influence; the Diabate family notwithstanding (if you've never heard it the kora is one of the most astoundingly beautiful instruments you'll ever encounter, and now 3 generations of Diabates have simultaneously preserved its tradition and expanded it into vast new styles of music), it's a shame how little recognition the intellectual contributions of the people there receive. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 05:12, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Ottoman slavery was far more brutal than US slavery. Most male slaves were castrated; there never was any intention of letting them have any children of their own. One of the most utterly BS claims about slavery in the old world (overgeneralizing of course because it varied) was that unlike the New World it wasn't inherited. That's a half-truth, because in the Old World, the father of the slave's baby was almost never a slave himself. In the New World, while sex-slaves and rape by the masters was common, the father was usually another slave.

Slavery also varied throughout the New World. The 13 colonies were not the initial focus of colonization; there were too many natives fighting back, the main trade goods were furs which the natives were already providing without the need for major settlements, etc. It took literally a century after the discovery of the New World before Europeans made serious efforts into colonization there. By then, slavery was already rife in the Caribbean, in spite of the "1619 Project"'s name. While the colonies did import directly from Africa, the majority of slaves were actually imported from places such as Haiti and Jamaica, simply because the colonies were so much further away from the African coast than, say, Brazil. CorruptUser 13:51, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Classical slavery (Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greece, Rome) was quite varied. Depending on the location, era and how you were enslaved (and even your gender, how attractive you were at the time, your health and stamina etc) you could end up worked to death in a mine or have it relatively easy with the right to own property, get education and buy your freedom. You could have been a sex slave or you could do challenging farm work some months and then spend the winter relatively idle. Some places and epochs, your kids became slaves, sometimes not. Over time rights for slaves developed. Slavery in Muslim kingdoms ranged from something like the previous description to pretty unimaginably brutal/horrific with zero rights. Slavery in the Americas was mostly brual/horrific, was for life, was inherited with absolutely zero rights (with a few exceptions in some Spanish and French colonies towards the end). Some slaves depending on their circumstances had it easier than others. None the less, all slavery is morally repugnant and no form of slavery should be, in theory, more acceptable than any other. In other words, while some forms of slavery are less barbaric and less cruel, it is all unnecessary and a form of outrageous violence, both physical and psychological against another human. ShabiDOO 15:20, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Side note, we really should have an article on the 1619 Project here. I'd help out anyone who wants to start a draft. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 15:46, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Every time Ken turns up in RationalWiki.

When you block him also don't forget to send him my essay: User:BeardOfZeus/RationalWiki obsessive compulsive disorder BeardOfZeus (talk)

I think not. The best advice is BRAT: Ban, Revert, And/or Troll-collapse. Bongolian (talk) 07:27, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Andrew Yang now has his own political party

Yang has now started the Foward Party How serious should this be taken and should Yang still even be considered a Democratic outlier at this point?SensaurC-137 (talk) 03:11, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

New Article? Revenant Raven (talk) 05:25, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Given that Yang had a maximum of 15% of the vote in the NYC mayoral race (4th place), it is: not serious/grifting/Russian stooging. Bongolian (talk) 07:00, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

I like option C: standard neoliberal bullshit designed to siphon votes away from the left. 2A01:388:3F5:161:0:0:1:90 (talk) 08:27, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Yang strikes me as a bit too Silicon Valley-broish to do much of that, with positions in the left-to-libertarian-to-business-oriented-right-wing cloud that occupies that space and a bullshit artistry that isn't quite good enough for politics, given how he flubbed the NYC mayor race. If he were more competent, we could probably stuff him in the Michael Bloomberg / Ross Perot column where which party benefits and does not benefit depends on the circumstance. But so far he hasn't been. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 13:37, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

At this stage he'd probably do more harm by siphoning off casual Republicans who are looking for a serious sounding alternative. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 15:44, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

This doesn't sound good

Welp, Pamela is projected to cause high flooding across much of Texas, up to 10 inches in a few hours. Andrew5 (talk) 18:24, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Isn't climate change wonderful. It's like things get progressively worse with each year. Revenant Raven (talk) 19:34, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Just like sequels in a movie franchise. Cardinal Chang (talk) 22:00, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

How do you identify "beggin the Question"

I am really confused as to what exactly Begging the Question/Circular reasoning is in the wild. It is very difficult for me to differentiate between arguing for a certain point and assuming that certain point is true, or have I got it all wrong? Any help, Thanks. An Advocate (talk) 02:36, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Have you looked at our Circular reasoning page? It gives several examples, albeit all within the fundie Christian realm. Bongolian (talk) 02:55, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I already checked, but that is a problem when you are debating, well, anyone who is not a creationist. I am having difficulty distinguishing begging the Question from real argument, and I am asking because I am not sure when to call something out as it. An Advocate (talk) 03:49, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

From Buddhism, you should seek to emancipate yourself from the circle of rebirth and death because rebirth is a form of suffering. See what the argument does there? It presupposes existence is inherently suffering, and if you've ever had a good time in your life you'll know that existence is not inherently suffering; that breaks the entire argument down. Even taking it to another level, if you want something and can't get it you suffer; what if it turns out that the thing you wanted in the first place would've made you suffer more? This can easily happen, such as wanting a Red Ryder, carbine action, 200-shot, range model air rifle, with a compass in the stock and this thing that tells time; turns out that if you get it you'll shoot your eye out (har!), so you'll suffer less if you just don't get it in the first place. (As an aside, given the apeshit crazy nature of Buddhism in Southeast Asia and especially Burma, I'll never understand why Buddhism largely gets a free pass from people claiming to be antireligious; at least when I display Buddhist iconography I make it explicitly clear I only appreciate the form, not the message, but hey). The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 04:01, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Sorry if I am misunderstanding, but that seems more like an argument by assertion that exsistance is suffering. An Advocate (talk) 04:30, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

I have to admit that I often find this one tough as well. While looking round the net I found this which I thought was useful.Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 07:17, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

It's not just assuming that a proposition is true (argument by assertion), it's constructing an argument in support of a proposition which itself relies on the proposition being true. If your discussion hasn't gotten to the point of "this is true BECAUSE X," then there isn't even the potential for begging the question. It's usually not as blatant as "X because Y because X," but if in "X because Y because Z," Z depends on the same state of affairs as X, it involves the same underlying circularity. So identification relies on examining arguments and checking for recurrence at different levels. 96.60.168.60 (talk) 09:09, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

”Begging the question” occurs when a conclusion (i.e. something you need to prove or support with evidence) occurs as part of the premises that are used to derive said conclusion. For example, take this argument against abortion

P1: An unborn baby is as valuable as a newborn

C1: Therefore, killing an unborn baby is equivalent to killing a newborn

This argument begs the following: it presupposes that from ‘two babies having the same value’ one can infer something about the relation between ‘killing an unborn baby’ and ‘killing a real baby’. Leucippus^{Sapere aude} 11:08, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

It’s important to note that not all forms of circularity are bad, that is, only vicious circularity is bad. After Russell’s Paradox some mathematicians (Russell, Poincaré, Weyl) responded with excessive strictures on circularity, culminating in the “Vicious Circle Principle”. However, Ramsey and Carnap showed that there are forms of circularity that are relatively harmless; for instance take the sentence: ‘John is the tallest man in the room’ which seems to define ‘John’ by reference to a totality (of men in the room)—but the totality that defines John also requires that John be a member of the set of men in the room—which is circular. Carnap and Ramsey, however, suggest that sentences of this sort aren’t problematic as they don’t presuppose that John actually exists, rather, sentences of this sort simply enable us to pick out an entity from a collection. Leucippus^{Sapere aude} 11:39, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Often begging the question are formed in a way which makes it difficult to frame them in the classical P1, P2, C, frequently with a missing premises...where the conclusion and the premises often rely on one another as evidential support, are variations of one another or a foregone conclusion. For example:

• This restaurant makes the best chilly dog because all other restaurants don't make chilly dogs as well as this one
• Allah must exist because Allah dictated the Quran and the Quran says that Allah exists
• This road isn't very safe because this road is dangerous.

They are generally very easy to identify but sometimes they can slip through. Even the best of us do it (sometimes leaving out an essential premesis which would avoid the fallacy) and sometimes we overlook begging the questions (especially when you are biased to accept an argument): Fox news is bad because its news is of low quality. That may be true but this argument begs the question and should be reworked (preferably with strong arguments and evidence). ShabiDOO 12:55, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

@Shabidoo It would seem that the fallacy originated with Aristotle’s method of dialectical reasoning (he called it the fallacy “asking for the conclusion”): Aristotle would start with a thesis already in mind, then Aristotle would give some of his students some premises that support this thesis, and finally, he would give another group of his students the task of arguing against these premises.

However, the students tasked with arguing against those premises weren’t allowed to simply ask for the conclusion Aristotle had in mind, they had to get there by drawing inferences from the premises and seeing whether a contradiction occurred. Leucippus^{Sapere aude} 16:52, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Some of the examples given above aren't begging the question. "This road isn't very safe because this road is dangerous," is a tautology, not a fallacy. It's a restatement of the proposition, not a failed attempt to support the proposition. 96.60.168.60 (talk) 11:27, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Does anyone know what's going on with Trump v. Twitter?

On July 7, Trump filed class-action suits against Twitter, Youtube, and Facebook over being banned from those platforms. The Youtube and Facebook cases have proceeded with just the usual preliminary sparring, but the Twitter case has the green ink brigade out in force. So far, there's been an amicus brief filed by "De Factor Attorneys General, Special Forces of Liberty, and Warriors for Christ", an attempt to establish a sub-class by someone who failed to consult with his co-plaintiff (or even establish that his co-plaintiff had been harmed by Twitter), a sovereign citizen filing a "Notice of Joinder and Mandatory Judicial Notice", and someone filing thirty pages of COVID-related nonsense. Has this lawsuit been circulating on fringe sites or something?

If you want to watch the excitement, Court Listener has the filings available. The sovereign citizen's filing in particular is a work of art. --65.101.119.25 (talk) 20:57, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

I haven't followed too closely because honestly from what I can tell it's a pretty pathetic beg-a-thon with no legal standing. Trump and his biggest fans clearly have troll-like needs for conflict and stirring up bullshit, else wise one would think they wouldn't bother with this. Trump's attempts at setting up echo chambers to promote himself have failed precisely for that reason. The docket link was nice to see because clearly some people have way more time on their hands and don't have a great idea on how to spend it. (QAnon, or using the Internet to look up delicious recipes, handy fix-it techniques, and maybe learn a few artistic techniques so you can retire like Dubya and do some "outsider" style painting? Well, some people choose poorly.) PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 22:39, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Even if he wanted to, his fans wouldn't let him. Trump is probably going to botch Republican's successes in 2022, if he runs in 2024 he will instantly lose. But the GOP can't back away. Andrew5 (talk) 01:09, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

The second link that was provided was to to a filing made by one "Kenneth-Wayne Leaming", who was sentenced to 8 years in prison about 8 years and 5 months ago for militia and sovereign citizen-related charges ("three counts of filing false liens against federal officials, and one count of harboring federal fugitives and being a felon in possession of firearms")[9]. Wayne?[10] Bongolian (talk) 19:48, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Note: the above-mentioned filing actually bears the marks of freeman on the land pseudolaw (peculiar naming, e.g., "Jack-Parick: Dorsey"), not sovereign citizen pseudolaw (immunity from the law). Bongolian (talk) 17:41, 12 October 2021 (UTC) However, the original sentencing document on Leaming identifies him as sovereign citizen.[11] Bongolian (talk) 17:53, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Can't tell if the Motion to Appear and Motion to Block Donald J. Trump from Twitter Forever is from a wingnut or a troll, but it's certainly a comedy piece. --65.101.119.25 (talk) 20:39, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

The User Illusion

I came across this in a TV show I was watching but I'm not entirely sure I get the idea. Is it similar to that the brain constructs reality based on input from the senses?Machina (talk) 04:47, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Consciousness can be seen as a completely deterministic thing. The brain takes inputs from the environment and then reacts entirely predictably to produce an output based on its current state (I believe this is true because all that we are is in our brain, simulate the brain and you predict perfectly what someone does). There could be an illusion in the philosophical sense if we can't take for granted that our senses are telling us the truth of the world. I think Hume touched on this, but there's probably a bunch of philosophers (it's not something I major in) that no doubt talk about how reality could be a big illusion. This is a popular one with Rene Descartes' demon, nihilism (nothing can be guaranteed to be true) even from an empirical standard I don't think you ever have absolute, 100% certainty in reality, but most scientists will take the consensus for granted and try not to dwell on the too spooky ideas that it's all just an illusion and they aren't going to wake up in someone's basement tomorrow. 86.10.101.16 (talk) 07:20, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

The idea is actually pretty straightforward, as confusingly as the wikipedia article is written. User interfaces on computers are often mockups of real world objects that are "illusory" in the sense that a folder on your computer is not a folding piece of paper that contains physical documents you can handle, but kinda, vaguely, sorta, resembles one. It's not an illusion in the sense that it's fooling anyone. A more appropriate and common way to describe it is probably "visual metaphor".

The weasel word "Some philosophers of mind" mentioned actually only refer specifically to Daniel C. Dennett, who claims that words, mathematics, and other abstractions, grant human beings specifically a way of framing our senses as metaphorical representations, which he terms user illusions.

“”from which we have a limited, biased access to the workings of our brains, which we involuntarily misinterpret as a rendering (spread on the external world or on a private screen or stage) of both the world’s external properties (colors, aromas, sounds, ...) and many of our own internal responses (expectations satisfied, desires identified, etc.). [...] Thanks to this infestation of culturally evolved symbiont information structures, our brains are empowered to be intelligent designers, of artifacts and of our own lives

His conclusion is basically to reinvent the idea of social constructs. Nothing earth shattering. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 15:42, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Another reality/illusion post, which is really just a light version of the pointless discussions we have had before. I sincerely hope this isn't nudging open the door to what will elevate into solipsism brainrot again. ShabiDOO 21:27, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

The term "illusion" requires some disambiguation. It can denote the sensations corresponding to an object that itself is fanciful. Normative sensory data can be distinguished from fantastic or illusory data, that is, if one assumes the fact that "the world exists," is a sure bet. An analogue to Pascal's wager, the empirical case, applies here. One can assume that the world exists as we generally experience it and therefore it would be possible to enjoy a life of confident exploration and intellectual stimulation prompted by sensory data. If on the other hand, one assumes the world is an illusion, one must lead a life of uncertainty: since nothing is real, nothing can be certain, apart from the sadness one may feel by choosing to assume the meaninglessness of life.UncleKrampus (talk) 22:11, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Flu shots

being offered a flu shot. normally i wouldnt bother and i dont consider myself at risk, though doctors seem to disagree hence being offered the jab, but coronavirus has made me reconsider this stance. at the the same time i dont want to deprive anyone of the jab who is genuinely at risk. should i take it? leaning towards yes, personally. AMassiveGay (talk) 12:15, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Always. You're not depriving someone at risk of the jab. You're eliminating virus's a pathway to someone at risk. It's a good time to get the jab, too, since all the COVID protocols have tightened down on the strains that usually go around the world. Think of it as maliciously sciencing against H1N1 and its ilk with a permission to laugh like an evil-doer. Kntai (talk) 12:36, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes. This.Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 12:39, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

done AMassiveGay (talk) 13:25, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Me and my family got our flu shots today. Oddly my oldest brother always has some sort of reactions to vaccines in which he gets rundown and tired. --Channel 48 EAS (talk) 17:09, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

It's always recommended to get a flu shot. Even if you're not exactly at risk, it's better to spend a short time on an afternoon and get possibly moderately stuffy than catch the flu and be miserable for days. Also the shot is indeed an epic way to kick the hell out of these goddamn disease specks. I remember how satisfied I was to get the Jansen shot because it was revenge. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 22:26, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

It's not always recommended. In certain cases it's actually contraindicated-- for example in my case. I had Guillain Barre Syndrome when I was forty (that was twenty-four years ago) and the doctors note that the flu vaccine is one of the few things that have a chance to cause a relapse. And trust me, once you've felt your entire body's voluntary physical responses shut down you never want a relapse or the slightest chance at one. Kencolt (talk) 15:36, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

So that's "always recommended unless you have some very specific known medical contra-indication" in that case.Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 16:04, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Got an idea for a Conlang and I got started on the language dictonary

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1o1JanigV1qcHhJ-GAhYzXrBUQF-E4aFFYe2QxR17i1Y/edit?usp=sharing

Kinda got inspired by the Dutch and Afrikaans languages. I call it "Sayspeak". I started the construction last night. --Channel 48 EAS (talk) 17:07, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Good luck Rationalzombie94! ℉℧ℂⓀ (talk) 00:38, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Ditto. Good luck! Kntai (talk) 10:18, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Curious to find out what the realizations of 'dk, gy, wk, bk, hk, su, qk' are. Do you know IPA? I am a relatively experienced conlanger with 4 reasonably complete conlangs under my belt, and I'd be happy to help. Good luck! Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 12:53, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Making all the numbers rhyme is probably not a good idea. It'll make communication more difficult if you're telephoning somebody with low audio quality. I know in Chinese, there's different names for 1, 2, 3, ... 9 for military use, since some of the numbers rhyme normally. LongStylus (talk) 13:48, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

I admit that I could use a little help with it. --Channel 48 EAS (talk) 19:05, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

I agree that rhyming numbers aren't a great idea. The military adopted Alpha Bravo Charlie to avoid the similarity on sound of letters like 'C, D, G, T'. But I guess the first question is what do you mean to do with your language? Is it supposed to be an auxiliary language like Esperanto? Or is it world building for fiction, like Dothraki or Klingon? The latter project doesn't involve nearly as much work as the former. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 04:41, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

i got two belgian buns and they look like boobies.

that is all. AMassiveGay (talk) 11:07, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

got me some nice biscuits for me tea too. winning. AMassiveGay (talk) 11:08, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Sipping Constant Comment, w/o any pastry. Sad. -RipCityLiberal (talk) 15:56, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

sitting down with the remaining belgian titty bun, cup of tea, and more nice biscuits. and when i say nice, i mean nice biscuits. which are nice and they got coconut in em. life is good AMassiveGay (talk) 19:00, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

I wonder if your buns have squid inside, a favorite food of those seabirds. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 20:37, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

dont you ruin my simple pleasures with double entendre AMassiveGay (talk) 20:51, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

But I thought this was 'Carry On Rationalwiki' (whether or not involving 'Fork Handles'). Anna Livia (talk) 23:32, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Are we done with face masks?

because i am seeing less and less of them in shops and on the tube. still got mine on. AMassiveGay (talk) 09:01, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Going to depend on where you are. In Spain the incidence is now very low and total vaccination is almost 80%. In northern Spain where I live there are about 50% of people wearing them in the street and 100% in shops and tube. I was in Seville in the south recently and there were a lot fewer masks to be seen. (But a lot more tourists too.) I still wear mine.Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 09:15, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Still mandatory on public transport in ireland. Cardinal Chang (talk) 11:30, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

If a vaccine-resistant Covid-19 variant crops up, masks will grow more popular again. Much of the world is unvaccinated so such a variant could pop up. The pandemic's course is unpredictable. It is like being on the ocean and not knowing if a rogue wave will sink your ship. But the pandemic will end. We just don't know when. Hannam (talk) 11:39, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Not done in Oregon. Some rebellious non-wearers and partial-wearers, but a good chunk do still try their best. The strangest phenomenon though has to be the menfolk who wear their masks on their Adam's apples when they see a MASK REQUIRED sign, cruising around with their mask-wearing friends as they shop for groceries. Kntai (talk) 11:41, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

kind of riles me a little seeing people with masks on, but not on properly, like their mouths afe covered but their noses are not. is it really so onerous to put the thing on correctly? selfish pricks. AMassiveGay (talk) 12:10, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes. This. It's so stupid. You have all of the inconvenience of wearing a mask and none of the advantages.Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 12:15, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

More than riles me up since I'm at risk due to medication. I mean, come on—you can finally as an adult to pretend to be a ninja or cowboy in public and you're just going with selfish jagoff instead? Kntai (talk) 12:19, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

In Scotland they are mandatory on transport, shops and public buildings. Even in restaurants and pubs you have to wear them when not seated (and you must be seated). Maybe one in two hundred people wear them with their nose poking out and I sometimes say something like "Could you cover your nose" and if they are stupid I ask "do you breathe through your mouth 100% of the time?". Proof of vax is required for large events now. As far as I know there is little controversy about this except with a few sociopathic business owners and the typical small group of crazies you will find everywhere. This is a LOT better than what I saw in London where at least 5% of people didn't wear it at all on public transport and I even saw mask-free people passing the ticket gates with security saying nothing, even some staff at a COVID testing centre didn't wear masks. It was extremely shocking how indifferent and reckless people were in England, especially after seeing how strict and responsible people were in Belgium and Spain. With my underlying condition, I felt extremely unsafe there, especially in London. ShabiDOO 12:20, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

living in london, im glad i've had my booster shot AMassiveGay (talk) 12:33, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

I've pettily taken to flipping the bird here because trying to explain to Americans that their outrage at their abled selves needing to wear a mask so someone less abled doesn't die is all falling on deaf ears. Might as well insult them in ways they don't understand. 2020 June I was out at a farmer's market, and a bunch of people sitting over at one of the free speech zones (yes, really) had a banner saying "why should I have to wear a face diaper for a disease with a 99.9% survival rate?"

They were of course, cap-wearing, sunglass-equipped dad dudes sitting in camping chairs. Eager to get my booster soon, before my next meds. Kntai (talk) 12:37, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Anyone not vaccinated or with underlying health conditions should not come to the southern US anytime soon while this pandemic is going strong. I'd say only about a quarter of customers in a grocery store are wearing a mask at this point in Florida, and that's with the state's shitty vaccination rate. Less when visiting Louisiana, and that's with an even shittier vaccination rate. It shows in the COVID death statistics, of course. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 13:33, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Coronavirus cases due the coronavirus delta variant sweep through a population fast and then decline real fast and this is happening in Florida where coronavirus cases are on a big decline.[12]

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Winter is coming on the north part of the USA too. So that will be bad for coronavirus cases as people are inside more with windows being closed.

If you are able to work from home, have your groceries delivered, and homeschool your children, you can ride out the pandemic anywhere in the USA. Hannam (talk) 13:47, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

So it's not so big a problem if you are reasonably well-off and employed in a job where you can work from home. I am sure that will be a great relief to everyone who isn't in such a fortunate position.Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 14:00, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

There is a worker shortage. A job is a rental car away in a low coronavirus state. Hannam (talk) 14:20, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

pure unadulterated dogshit AMassiveGay (talk) 14:25, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

if the onset of winter has such an effect on coronavirus, i am wondering why the flu is not similarly effected by what is considered to be 'flu season' AMassiveGay (talk) 14:04, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

speaking of which, the onset of flu season would surely see an increase in deaths as a result, would it not? AMassiveGay (talk) 14:06, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

roll on winter its masking up that keeps infection down AMassiveGay (talk) 14:10, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Fully true. As a climate nerd, the coldest state is Alaska with an average temperature of 27°F (-3°C), and other north states with cold climates like Montana and North Dakota also have COVID, and New York is also quite cold. Right now masks are required in schools and certain indoor facilities require it, but it’s not a statewide law. But I have a feeling it will get stricter as temperatures continue to plummet. New York’s yearly temp average is cold too, and the border might close again. Andrew5 mobile (talk) 13:56, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Florida is also the warmest state at 71°F (22°C) average. But winter isn't here just yet, with my location being well above average. But even then, right now, our average low is only 49°F(9°C) and the high is 65°F (18°C), comparable to that of early May. Andrew5 (talk) 14:00, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

I just travelled from AZ to Portland OR (actually I am at PDX as I write this). Amazing to see folks in my part of AZ be asshats about masks then see so many people here being responsible. @Kntai I only really witnessed a handful of dudes not wearing masks and nobody was belligerent. Granted I was just in OR for 2 days. Probliknaut (talk) 21:20, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Arizona is about 50% blue and 50% red, but the Republicans their are extreme, Donald Trumpists (although Trump did endorse the vaccine). Oregon is at least 55% blue and no more then 45% red, so it makes sense. However, if you go to eastern Oregon it will flip. (Also, look at the weather. Phoenix's average lows are equal to the average highs in Portland). So in AZ, people are reasonable around Phoenix and in Maricopa County, and possibly in Tuscon, but are unreasonable everywhere else. Andrew5 (talk) 22:06, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm glad PDX is treating you well and is doing alright maskwise—it was a fun place to live. @Probliknaut ​Yeah, eastern/southern Oregon are where people get very "MY RIGHTS," and if you visit Salem (which is a tiny blue drop surrounded by red farmland) I understand the right-wing circus tends to be in town most weekends, especially around the Capitol building which is basically the area with anything of interest. Meanwhile, Baker City in eastern Oregon has from what I've been told an emergency plan in case of nuclear war, the arrival of the triffids, or whatever would lead to the fall of the US—blow up the passes around BC, through which I-84 runs, and sit pretty. Having been there once, I wonder what the hell they'd do with their time... Kntai (talk) 06:25, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Well eastern OR (as well as ID, WY, MT, ND and whatnot) are being punished with a big blizzard. Further south had a big tornado outbreak over the last few days. Andrew5 (talk) 16:03, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

That sucks, so no to punishment. I don't wish that on anyone unprepared for cold climes. The February chill that hit the Willamette Valley bad this year was an eyeopener in terms of how prepared folks are. The previous years I'd been blinking in disbelief at how squirrely Oregonians/Portlanders drive in less than an inch of snow. Moreover, it got bad enough with the droughts this year that the ODT had to remind people that rain makes roads slippery. Veering off-topic here, however. Kntai (talk) 09:13, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

We're certainly not done with face masks in Taiwan. It's still obligatory to wear one at all times whenever you step outside your own home, both inside and outside. Still, there was never a full lockdown here. Non-essential shops never had to close. And, apart from the masks, which were never a really uncommon sight here, even before the pandemic, things are almost back to normal. Spud (talk) 11:24, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

That's all great to hear. No surprise about the masks being a common thing before the pandemic; it's a good thing, remains a good communal policy in my opinion. Otherwise, is the drought finally over? Kntai (talk) 11:35, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

I could picture this

https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/environmental/cwd-creeps-into-two-new-swaths-of-the-bridger-teton-national-forest/article_60a5834b-2252-50b0-8571-bd5b89b308aa.html

Recently a vicious disease has been spreading among deer and elk. The disease in question is the prion infection Chronic Wasting Disease or CWD for short. Chronic Wasting Disease is similar to Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy or Mad Cow Disease in Cattle and Kuru in humans. Prions can be transmitted by genetic mutation, sporadic development and infection. Eating meat contaminated with prions can transmit them to other animals and people. Prions cannot be destroyed by standard decontamination methods as with viruses, bacteria or parasites.

With science denialists screaming about their freeedum from getting live saving vaccines and wearing masks to protect against COVID, here is what I can picture in a scenario with a prion disease; keep in mind that the CDC strongly discourages people from eating infected deer meat-

Hunters who would likely deny the very real Chronic Wasting Disease. They would likely claim that Chronic Wasting Disease does not exist or that it is not as bad as medical scientists say or that they have "natural immunity" if the disease jumped to humans. If deer hunting was banned temporarily to prevent possible human infections, the hunters would probably ignore the ban and probably attack workers from the Department of Natural Resources who would enforce the ban.

Maybe I have become cynical? --Channel 48 EAS (talk) 23:38, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

As long as they aren't trying to sell it (and if they did they could be sued) it seems like they'd only be shooting themselves in the foot yet again. You're correct though, but this has been the position of people who don't like what science tells them for a long time. If they're dead set on eating something they're not going to listen to something some people in white coats told them over the pond or across the street. You have to invest time into those communities to change that, you could save their life if you could convince them. But if you have ever directly talked with an anti-vaxxer, you need a lot of patience. I think the real danger is the big companies who have money to leverage propaganda campaigns and harm people on a mass scale, these are in another league compared to your local elk hunter who can't accept that his food is contaminated this season. Some examples of companies interfering:

• Asbestos historically, and Asbest in russia, and the companies in it that deny science for profit.
• Lead in gas.
• Tobacco.
• FDA was pressured to alter their findings.
• Climate change (do I need to cite a source here?)

Profit > Anything else. What I think though, is there may be a financial incentive to intentionally dumb people down so they will more willingly buy your shit. If I were a morally bankrupt businessman who wanted to keep my snake oil sales high, I would be invested in destroying education and science itself. 86.10.101.16 (talk) 01:38, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Honestly, if they could find a way to transmit the disease to white-tailed deer around here I'd be for it. Thanks to the various Indians who got here first their natural predators are long extinct, so the fucking buggers are way overpopulated for their own good; they're a menace on the roads and wreak havoc on almost anything anybody tries to grow around here, plus (along with white-footed mice) are such tick reservoirs that Lyme disease gets its name from being discovered during an outbreak in Lyme and Old Lyme. They'll even wander into the outskirts of cities, for reasons that elude me. It's so bad that, exactly the opposite of what everyone outside this area believes, people from northern New England come down here for their deer hunting. I enjoy eating venison, there's an Ainu dish I like to make with it, but damn are medallions expensive (ground it's somewhat more reasonable) and it doesn't seem like many other people here share my taste for it. Obviously I'd prefer a better method of culling, but if it works it works. I'm not sure why any hunters would deny any of this, it's not in their financial interest to get prion disease or transmit it to anyone. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:29, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

What I would like to know about CWD is how it spreads among the herds. Typically prion diseases (as far as I am aware) are not contagious like viruses. You would need to actually eat part of the infected nervous system in order to get the thing into your body. So there would be a potential danger to humans who ate the infected animal.

But do deer and elk eat each other? For that matter - what about the wolf population? Presumably they catch/scavenge those populations. So a few questions here.Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 09:38, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

indeed. mad cow disease only came about from feeding ground up sheep infected with scrapie to cows. however, scrapie appears to to be infectious through cuts, and can be passed on to offspring. something similar could be happening here i guessAMassiveGay (talk) 09:53, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

apparently lambs can pass it to one and other, and scrapie free flocks can be infected from a contagion in the environment. AMassiveGay (talk) 10:00, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

the above curtesy of wikipedia AMassiveGay (talk) 10:01, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

i dont believe prion disease would a particularly helpful mode of culling tbh. a pretty dumb one with potentially awful consequences i'd imagine. AMassiveGay (talk) 10:05, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

i wouldnt fancy eating the flesh of such deer either, if i was the hunting type AMassiveGay (talk) 10:07, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Interesting. As you say, Wikipedia tells us that scrapie can be transmitted in other ways. Thanks. Something new to learn every day!Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 14:18, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

The CDC has a brief page on transmission of CWD, stating that it is likely transmissible through bodily fluids as well as through the environment, including contaminated food and water. Other sources seem to confirm this, and the prion has apparently been shown to remain infectious in the environment for at least 2 years. 𝒮𝑒𝓇𝑒𝓃𝑒 ^talk 23:51, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Indeed. Looking at your links, two years is the minimum - though there seems to be little or no evidence of transmission to humans. In fact, the probability is that we have been eating scrapie-positive sheep for a long time without any major human human infection. (BSE was clearly a different case.)

But now I'm wondering about prion evolution. I had assumed (evidently erroneously) that it was not infectious in the classical sense. But as it seems that it can be transmitted, then presumably more transmittable variants would be at a relative "reproductive" advantage, and presumably be subject to the usual evolutionary pressures.Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 14:47, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

To be clear, my thought is a last resort; I'd much rather more people develop a taste for venison and start picking off more of them. White-tailed deer are a serious ecological problem here, since there are weird limits on shooting them with guns I'd much rather do the next best thing and have bow hunters take them out (I have no qualms about throwing rocks at them myself). Not that I'd feel sorry for them wasting away, I've seen enough rabid animals and animals in "humane" traps (I despise those, and anyone who uses them in my presence gets to watch me do it the right way with a hammer) to worry about that, but if there's a better way I'd be happy to avoid New England being the next England for a prion disease outbreak. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:51, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

The conservative's anti-science stance is ultimately killing them now, how that affects the future votes

For a while now conservatives have been getting increasingly anti-intellectual (I say increasingly, because at some point even Margaret Thatcher was a leader in promoting climate change awareness (that is until it became more politicized and she threw climate science under the bus because it was being used to criticize the excesses of capitalism), I've long held the view that when you reject science, it can end up having conseqeunces. In an outbreak, those consequences are fatal.

But what does this all mean for their voterbase? Surely there is a particularly faulty reasoning going on from a political standpoint when your main source of votes is the most vulnerable to COVID, and yet you are filling their heads with nonsense and discouraging them from getting a vaccine to save their life. It's as if the republican strategy is to win by burning their own fields.

Being an anti-vaxxer is essentially a strong predictor that you're voting conservative. More on that.

The problem is that, when you have a party that is corrupt to its core, where a large portion of them are getting their pockets lined to repeat an anti-science narrative. That the influencers of this party are telling them to distrust science, and why wouldn't they? If they listened to the facts, they'd be out of the job on several fronts like climate change, COVID, effects of growing wealth inequality, it seems like eventually the republicans should be burning through their voterbase little by little.

It doesn't help that there is a divide in how republicans view education, let alone actual achievement academically. This was a long time coming though, sabotaging education is a conservative tradition at this point. And is becoming an identity issue, they probably realized the experts weren't reporting the facts they'd like or were even critical of them and decided that maybe education wasn't so good anymore.

I actually feel sympathy for the poor republican voters who haven't gotten an education, the ones who dropped out, or couldn't make it and are lost (the people the system has failed) in a confusing world to which the people around them explain it to them by filling their head with bullshit, and elsewhere in the world, similar conservative cranks explicitly saying things like we don't need the experts. What is the uneducated supposed to do unless someone comes to save them? Accidentally come across disconfirming evidence? And then there is the problem of when they go on like that for years, and just reject things because accepting they are wrong would be too costly (now the people you talk to know you're a fool and the smug liberal was right!) 86.10.101.16 (talk) 06:27, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Merck is coming out with an oral antiviral that will make it easier for the antivaxers to get through the pandemic. Cygon (talk) 15:16, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Thing is, it's not just conservatives in elected positions who are "anti-science," but also every day citizens who vote. Heck, it's not even just conservatives who are "anti-science" as I have known people who are very liberal supporting conspiracy theories and anti-corporate bullshit (i.e. "you can't trust vaccines because they are made by greedy capitalists!!!!" or "education is controlled by rich capitalists!!!!!"). If Biden and Trump didn't both make COVID political, vaccination rates would be higher right now. And for that matter, I have no doubt that vaccination rates would be higher if Trump won re-election because only the hard-core anti-Trumpers and hard core anti-vaxxers would refuse the jab. Currently those folks are refusing it along with the MAGA people. Another thing I'd like to add is there are a lot of "educated" health care workers and their unions refusing/protesting vaccine mandates in the USA, such as paramedics and EMTs in the City of Chicago and SEIU members at Columbia Presbyterian Hospital in New York (despite the union's national position of being in favor of mandates). There are also teachers in New York opposing vaccine mandates. So if union members in deep blue states are opposed to the vaccine or vaccine mandates, and everyone opposed to the vaccine or vaccine mandates are going to vote conservative, the upcoming election is probably going to be very kind to the Republican party. 71.215.94.171 (talk) 01:21, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

You may want to search for the time when Trump was actually booed for suggesting that, gosh, wasn't the vaccine his administration helped create a good thing? Tis funny. "Conservative" really isn't the best word to describe the bulk of the anti-vaxx crowd, "gullible enough to believe a conspiracy theory" is. And while the conspiracy theory crowd these days has shifted heavily towards the right populists, there remains a solid bloc of the conspiracy theory crowd on the left that also are anti-vaxx (no one would call the Nation of Islam "conservative" for instance, and the New Age crowd has not completely disappeared). Anecdotally of the conservatives I know, I would describe the situation as "split". Those more grounded in reality are pro-vaccine. Those who babble Facebook conspiracy theories and fall for every quack cure pushed no matter how ridiculous it is are anti-vaxx. The anti-vaxx conspiracy idiots are loud but the majority of Republicans actually are vaccinated at this time. There's a significant share of idiots, but not all of them are. So I don't think one can make any electoral assumptions based on nutpicking at this time. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 03:16, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

COVID anxiety (Yup, this is a god damned rant)

Getting close to two years of this madness and it is driving me insane. I think that the science denialists and right wing terrorists (My philosophy is to call it like it is) have been the worst fucking part of this mess. I just want this pandemic to end already. Just getting those thoughts out there. --Channel 48 EAS (talk) 16:52, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

BeardOfZeus (talk) 04:25, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Everyone suffering because nature is being an asshole I am prepared for. Humanity having to team up to fight a disease is sad, but understandable. The tragedy is this could be over right now if the population hadn't been so brain washed by right-wing scumbags that they refuse life saving technology. MirrorIrorriM (talk) 14:35, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Might want to remember this behavious when you're writing your next story. I still chuckle at the end timers who used to boast about how prepared they were for the collapse of society only to see them panic at the first lock down, and have a hissy fit over wearing a face mask. Cardinal Chang (talk) 14:43, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Back in high school I always thought it was nearly impossible to despise right-wingers any more but antivaxxers, one of the worst specimen of idiotic, I didn't even know existed until college, proved me wrong. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 14:49, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

From what I remember, the antivaxx crowd existed, but were a rather small sect, and more mixed politically. Generally the type of crazy people you'd find later ranting about how water fluoridation is a Communist plot and the like. It's amazing to see this become "mainstream", and shows the power of propaganda outlets like Facebook and Fox News. Yes, the pandemic has also demonstrated how a certain part of the prepper crowd is wasting their money. You can probably get better "survival gear" type items at, say, REI, but no, some have to buy into the Infowars/Jim Bakker type bullshit... PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 15:07, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

The pandemic is taking a toll on the U.S. governments ability to get things done. Politico just released this news: ‘The president’s decline is alarming’: Biden trapped in coronavirus malaise. Cygon (talk) 15:09, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Nah, that's just good ol' fashion partisanship in its typical inaction, both between the cult of Angry Baby and Democrats and also within the Democrats between "the centrists", "the progressives", and "who the fuck bought off Kyrsten Sinema?". A fair bit of writers are still expecting the Biden bill o' sausages to eventually be made. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 15:20, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm sure antivaxxers existed before my knowledge. I was rather naive at the time. They were jaw-dropping to me at the time. I was also especially shocked learning about the belief in chemtrails when I always understood contrails as interesting plane clouds. What other crazy belief went under my plumber schnoz? That dew in the morning is government secretly spraying stuff to mind control you? It's as plausible as "chemtrails". --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 03:23, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

The biggest problem for Biden right now is the independents who are a key voting block. Cygon (talk) 15:37, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Article corrections

Can I get some pointers? I want to make corrections to the article https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Talk:The_Venus_Project I tried to drum up discussion on the talk page but didn't have any luck. I wrote an essay and the feedback I got seemed to be positive. I went ahead with some corrections but the corrections were rolled back. I'm not sure how to proceed. It's a difficult article to make corrections to since there are a lot of misunderstandings in it. Hansen128 (talk) 05:03, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

I haven't looked into them very much, but I don't think their project deserves the degree of hostility it has received here. It's just a commune people can join, which has a guiding founder just like many other massive real-estate projects led by architects, so it's odd how the first sentence dismissively and loosely calls it a "cult." I haven't heard of any manipulation or oppression of "members." No one is tricked into joining nor prohibited from leaving. Whoever wrote that must think all of the hippie communes were cults? SolidaritywithAll (talk) 05:26, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

I know nothing about this subject, though the article certainly has a pretty negative take. But, like many of our more political articles, I'm not entirely sure why we even have it. Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 12:21, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

A quick skim of stuff seems to indicate that the Venus Project is largely a "utopian city/society" type vision. It vaguely seems a little New Age-kooky, and vaguely seems "out there". "Mostly harmless" overall, however I'm seeing some testimonial blogs from ex-TVP members indicating that the competence to actually implement this vision seems non-existent, so keeping your money and time away from it seems wise, particularly since the founder who actually thought all this stuff is now dead. I wouldn't have prioritized making this article either, personally. OTOH to the OP I think the problem with your edits is that it looked like whitewashing, there is a lot of utopian crap on that website (no matter what they say) that has no real implementation plan (a lot of "buzzword bingo" but nothing concrete). I guess they put together a few demo buildings, but I guess it hasn't impressed too many people. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 14:12, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

I can see why you thought that my edits were whitewashing. That wasn't my intent. I'm trying my best to portray The Venus Project as accurately as I can. It sounds like the primary question here is "What is The Venus Project's plan"? The plan is to build updated cities utilizing a high degree of automation and technology. Cities will be configured in order to optimize human health and be sustainable as possible. But there are those buzzwords again that you probably don't like. I know the Newcomers section recommends against posting YouTube videos but in this case I think it's the best way to show you what is being proposed.

https://youtu.be/KphWsnhZ4Ag?t=1967 (32:47-42:47)

Hansen128 (talk) 23:39, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

Virginia Governor Race

So apparently, Virginia has a really high chance of electing a Republican governor. Biden's approval rating among black citizens has plummeted since he took office back in January, which is troubling because minorities are usually a key voting block for democrats. This is why "He's not Trump" isn't enough. Putting Trump aside and ignoring him (difficult to do, I know, but just try), Biden has been at BEST a mediocre president and it's showing in his approval ratings; he started out with ~60% when he took office and is now down to the lower 40's, a few polls even have him in the upper 30's. I think people are starting to realize now that just because someone isn't Trump doesn't automatically give them a free pass. If Virginia does end up electing a Republican governor, the "He's not Trump" card will probably be the culprit. Aaronmichael5 16:29, 16 October 2021 (UTC).

As somebody who thinks the Democrat (McAuliffe) will win, I still agree with most of your criticisms. On the whole more is needed more than "vote dem because we aren't evil" to carry the day.-Flandres (talk) 18:53, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

So do I, but unfortunately nationally it's tough to do much quickly with a thin majority in Congress, particularly when the other party is fully obstructionist, the current Democrat party encompasses a wide range of views. Biden also doesn't even have the charisma of Bill Clinton (let alone Barack Obama or Ronald Reagan) to help prop him up. One thing that really drags Biden (and is a ding on him and his "old school" wing) is that IMHO there is too much clinging onto old-school procedurals like the fillibuster or the debt ceiling, which in turn drags down much legislation. In this era these things have been politicized and have lost their purpose. So they really need to be canned. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 19:09, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Joe Biden's approval has slipped below 45%. His dissaproval rating is rapidly moving up to 50%. McAuliffe is relying heavily on Biden which is problematic. Polls still indicate a 2.5% lead for McAuliffe, however. But his lede is rapidly diminishing. The VA gov race will be a good prediction of the 2022 midterms. Time change coming up November 7, Andrew5 (talk) 20:13, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

I actually don't think it will be too indicative of the midterms. For one, governor races are much less, if you will, "nationalized" than congressional ones-they don't hinge as much around national issues. Furthermore, Virginia does not have the voter suppression laws we are seeing in all too many GOP run states. We don't know how those will affect the election yet.-Flandres (talk) 20:20, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

While I generally agree that voter suppression is an issue, I also can't help but think some of the people losing their shit over it are just slightly overstating their case. In what other time was it possible to show up at a polling station 24 hours a day for weeks/a month before Election Day to cast a vote? If you can't get your ass to a polling station or, gasp, mail a ballot, at some point it's not anyone's fault but your own. I live in one of these "majority-minority" places where people are consistently shrieking their heads off about being a targeted area for "voter suppression", yet last year I went to vote in person at "peak hours" on Election Day and the line was an apocalyptic... 2 minute wait. I showed up, proved who I was (granted in CT driver's licenses/non-driver's IDs are fairly ubiquitous, but the DMV isn't that hard to figure out if you can get off your ass and show up), and voted. Is it too much to ask that, if you want to vote, you try to get off your ass to cast your ballot? The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい)

I submit that Connecticut is a wee bit different politically from states like Florida, Arizona, Georgia, and Texas (where these laws are being discussed). Your anecdotal experiences in CT are not particularly useful in this discussion.-Flandres (talk) 20:34, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

True, though this is also the place that for 3 years managed to accidentally exclude 60+% of its potential black and Hispanic jurors through a couple clerical errors; don't give us too much credit here! That said, yes, Connecticut is in a very different place, but there's a small if annoyingly loud fringe still losing their minds over "voter suppression" despite the remarkable lack of evidence. The protester in a Martha's Vineyard shirt pretty much summed it up, talk about a self-own. I still can't quite get why having to prove you are who you say you are is such an issue, though, you have to do that for other constitutionally protected rights (such as buying a gun, when you go on trial for something), I can admit that people here actually care enough to get off their asses to obtain some form of ID that makes this a non-issue. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 20:48, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

I wasn't referring to I.Ds. I was referring to the sorts of laws passed in red states just this year that make it harder to vote (SB7 in TX is a famous example)-the ones Biden condemned nationally and wants to pass some sort of new voting rights act to counteract. Since we haven't seen an election with those in place yet I just don't think we can predict the midterms. We don't know how much influence those laws wield because they are new. In fact, we technically don't know if they will be in force by November 2022, though that is fairly likely.-Flandres (talk) 20:56, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Ah. Yeah, that's definitely more of a concern. Now there's the sort of thing that can properly be considered, at the very least, unhelpful in terms of actually doing anything useful during elections. If I could do anything about it I would, but from here I'd just encourage as many states as possible to go the direction we have; things seem to be working well enough for us. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 21:02, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

The supply chain problems are getting worse and that will drive up inflation. It will also affect Christmas shopping. Joe Biden's approval ratings are facing some stiff headwinds. Presidents with job approval ratings below 50% have seen their party lose 37 House seats, on average, in midterm elections.[13] Calspiceo (talk) 13:33, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

It's been nice and warm here over the NE, but

Weather reality check projecting heavy rain, gusts up to 75mph, and temperatures to return to near normal, after being like summer. Where I live got as high as 78-79°F (26°C) and well above average which is 64°F (18°C). Many other cities, such as DC, are going from the mid 80s down to the lower 60s. (Upper 20s to mid teens ° C). Time change coming up November 7, Andrew5 (talk) 20:31, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Being the rare New Englander who actually likes the cooler weather, I'm dying for it. Partially because the foliage has been pathetic so far, even up at Mount Greylock, but also I'm sick of the warm weather. I'm a total George Henry Durrie type guy, snowscapes are my favorite scenery to work with (he painted them, I photograph them, the colder and harsher the more I like being out in it). The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 20:52, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

I, too, like cooler weather. I want a high of 65°F (18°C) and a low of 45°F (7°C), but I do occasionally like warmer or colder. The heat has been really uncomfortable and I have a lot of long sleeved shirts I wanted to wear but it’s too cold so I have to wear short sleeves. I almost even had to wear shorts on Friday and I don’t like them at all. Halloween here should’nt be like last year tho which had a high of 47°F (8°C) and a low of 32°F (0°C). Andrew5 mobile (talk) 01:20, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

65/45 sounds absolutely lovely. Was cooler here in AZ for a few days but we’re past being able to keep our windows open. Bummer since my wife is super eager to break out all her newly knit sweaters! Probliknaut (talk) 01:44, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Looking at Phoenix, today will have a low of 65˚F (18˚C) and a high of 89˚F (32˚C). (Btw, 65/45 is ideal, today here was 63/52 (17/11˚C)). Dew points are quite low though. Yesterday got to 93˚F (34˚C). That was the hottest where I live got to all year! However, while Phoenix did get down to 50˚F (10˚C) at night, the lowest high was only 71˚F or 22˚C. Anyway, Friday at 6am MST (13:00 UTC) appears to be 55˚F or 13˚C so thats a good time for your wife to wear one.

The cold front spawned ten tornadoes across Ohio and Pennsylvania, curious if it will get a section in the Tornadoes of 2021 article. Probably will especially as there was an EF2 thrown in, but we'll see. It was nothing like Ida or the July 28-29 one though. At least here, 28-29 didn't work immediately but temperatures plunged down to 57˚F or 14˚C evantually. Ida made it go from the mid 80s (high 20s) and warm nights to a point where it also got to 57 so...Time change coming up November 7, Andrew5 (talk) 20:16, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Roblox

I want a page on Roblox. SociableFish (talk) 23:44, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Goody for you. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 23:46, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

I suppose it could be made as a fun page, revolving around comedically absurd connections to woo and conspiracy theories (might be able to work in a roblox vs. minecraft joke, given our article on Notch). Not sure who would be willing to put in the effort for a such tenuous joke article, though. 71.188.73.184 (talk) 23:52, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Sometimes video games get articles such as Ethnic Cleansing (video game) but that is relevant to the RW mission. --Channel 48 EAS (talk) 23:59, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, same for video game designers that go conspiracy whack-a-doodle (Markus Persson of Minecraft fame for instance). Don't see that issue with Roblox. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 00:24, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

i played some dumb roblox game awhile back, and the avatar you get assigned was random -either boy or girl - you didnt get to choose. not an issue, its a video game after all. between each round of the game all the players were put in this virtual lobby were your avatar could wander and around and thats its really, just wander around with all the other players. i noticed when my avatar was female, lots of the male avatars would be constantly pushing up against mine, grinding on them.

very much does not need an article, very, very few video games do, but way to go gamers, fucking virtual sex pests. AMassiveGay (talk) 01:16, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

If there is some justification in the RW Mission Statement then any subject is ok. If you just want something on your favorite game then, no.Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 13:18, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

If it’s not missional, it can be made at Fun:Roblox. Andrew5 mobile (talk) 17:11, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

I really don't see how it's missional, just weird kids doing weird stuff. The Roblox community is infamous for its hookers and infighting, but that's not missional. There are a few racists and cranks, but the same goes for any online video game, League of Legends and Warframe has them too. (Profile) - (Spoke!) 21:25, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Vent: People actually voted for this man …..

“You’re a nasty piece of work”—Eddie Mair hits the nail on the head. If you feel optimistic about the future of humanity, just reflect on the fact that supposedly “educated” humans in a “developed nation” have voted for this narcissistic piece of shit. I fear that barring substantial changes to human biology, it is inevitable that humanity will extinguish itself. Narcissists, like Boris Johnson, are irredeemable—we have an abundance of evidence concerning his narcissism, and his inability to change—, …!

Leucippus^{Sapere aude} 18:21, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

What's more worrying is, it's blatantly obvious he's not fit for any public office, something that became clear during his nightmarish turn as Mayor of London. And yet people voted for him. Why? Christ only knows. It was during that period of recent history when it seemed he would be a disrupter. A rule-breaker. Someone who wouldn't do the same as previous PM's. You know, that same idiotic, masochistic belief that Trump or Bolsonaro or that fucking headbanger (To quote Olen Steinhauer, back when the rest of Europe hadn't a clue about him) Viktor Orban. And would you believe they've all been pretty much national embarrassments. PR seems to trump (no pun intended) over ability and policies. Even Ireland has a similar case with Leo "My self satisfaction ratings are at an all time high!" Varadkar, Irelands first openly smug Taoiseach (then, now Tánaiste) to quote Oliver Callan. The rather ridiculous thing about Boris' voter base is, they want foreigners out and yet he's a fucking Yank born of Turkish descent. Cardinal Chang (talk) 19:33, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

"That's humanity" to be honest... lots of assholes questing for power, and lots of assholes who admire assholes merely for being assholes propping them up. Even now in the world, there are "leaders" out there committing worse atrocities than Trump, Johnson, Orban, or Bolsonaro have ever done (I'm thinking folks like Xi Jinping, the often awful despots in sub-Saharan Africa and the Middle East, Rodrigo Duterte's "extrajudicial killing" network, etc.) Humanity chugs on in spite of these assholes, and even on occasion some humans behave surprisingly not like an asshole. And often the assholes "dig their own hole", e.g. the asshole behavior comes back to bite them badly... as we've seen with Brexit and during the COVID-19 pandemic. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 20:24, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

All valid points, but I referred to Trump, BoJo, Bolsanaro and Orban because people voted for these bastards. Cardinal Chang (talk) 20:34, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes, although people voted for these guys for other reasons (ranging from racism to concerns about corruption), unfortunately there are a lot of assholes out there, particularly of the boorish variety who think that the character of a man is how much of an asshole they are. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 20:47, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

What's wrong with Boris Johnson? For one he's trying to stop climate change and he also finally got Britain out of the hellhole that is Brexit. As leaders go he doesn't seem so bad. He definitely not in the same camp as Trump or Bolsonaro. BeardOfZeus (talk) 23:04, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Boris was one of the principal architects of Brexit and helped animate anti-EU insanity simpy to cure his boredom, get attention and drive his political career despite fully well knowing how deeply beneficial remaining in the EU was and how costly leaving the EU was, is and will be. He is the worst kind of politician, not because he lies and does snakey shit to keep his career going (they ALL do), but because behind that, he didn't start out with nor vaguely tries to realise any benevolent or meaningful goal behind any of this, and more so...he will resort to a rather high degree of sneaky bullshit to achieve anything. Yes, he isn't as destructive as Trump. Trump should not be some kind of metric by which you judge others. "At least x isn't Trump" shouldn't be a statement anyone has to make. ShabiDOO 23:59, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

It's true that Johnson was part of the "Vote Leave" campaign during that vote in 2016. However how do you know that Boris Johnson knew "fully well knowing how deeply beneficial remaining in the EU was and how costly leaving the EU was, is and will be."? He has managed to get Britain to finally out of Brexit (as agreed by a democratic vote). He's also have done great strides in getting climate change in front of Britain's agenda (compared to Scotty from Marketing). BeardOfZeus (talk) 00:15, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

I do consider Boris less of a dumbass than Trump / Bolsonaro, but in my opinion your viewpoint on Johnson and his role in Brexit is... pretty charitable. His early Telegraph columns are considered by some sources to "plant the seed" for Brexit-level Euroscepticism in the 1990s. Once he "got political", while not quite Trump as far as asshole behavior goes, he tends to be part of a chaotic cloud (similar to Trump in this way) that seems to be more engaged in internal power shenanigans than any governance. Johnson barely avoided a no-deal Brexit (kind of kicking the can down the road, though) and it's pretty clear that his Brexit-related immigration policies exasperated some of the recent UK shortage issues that have been in the news lately. Yes, to his credit, he's not like the other two on climate change and actually acknowledges it, he didn't spew the bullshit on COVID-19 that the other two did, and he doesn't have that faux masochistic wimpiness bullying thing going on that Trump and Bolsonaro have in spades. So it's not all bad. But it's not all great. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 00:49, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

BeardOfZeus (talk) 01:03, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Not sure how stupid a stance on covid this is, but here's Boris in fine moron form https://news.sky.com/video/coronavirus-i-shook-hands-with-everybody-11948548 Cardinal Chang (talk) 04:43, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Boris wasn't totally to blame for the initial COVID response, because he was actually listening to his advisors. Who were making the decisions based on their view of UK politics instead of letting the PM himself do so, at least if they had let Boris be the one to get people to lockdown by really driving that point home, instead of saying that "the UK is essentially too spoiled to accept these measures", they could just wash their hands of that issue and say. "Well, at least we told them what should have been done. It's their fault if they didn't listen". But on Brexit? Well, he wasn't being dishonest, right? It was one of the funniest moments of all, it also caused Nigel Farage to outright lie too. "I'd never have made that claim". It's just so satisfying when a gaslighter gets caught redhanded and the veil disappears. 86.10.101.16 (talk) 06:38, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

I don't know what planet you're on, but on the day Boris was shaking hands with everybody, SAGE advice was to not do so. https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/boris-johnson-boasted-of-shaking-hands-with-coronavirus-patients-on-same-day-officials-urged-ban-new-documents-show Cardinal Chang (talk) 11:20, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Was that directed at me, because the source I posted also mentions him shaking hands on the 3rd, it's from Reuters. What it also goes into is how the advisors to him behind the scenes also knew full well that it was going to be bad, but their reports downplayed it or excluded their true beliefs about what needed to be done because of what they thought of the British public. But the interviews and documents also reveal that for more than two months, the scientists whose advice guided Downing Street did not clearly signal their worsening fears to the public or the government. Until March 12, the risk level, set by the government’s top medical advisers on the recommendation of the scientists, remained at “moderate,” suggesting only the possibility of a wider outbreak. “You know, there’s a small little cadre of people in the middle, who absolutely did realise what was going on, and likely to happen,” said John Edmunds, a professor of infectious disease modelling and a key adviser to the government, known for his work on tracking Ebola. Edmunds was among those who did call on the government to elevate the warning level earlier. From the outset, said Edmunds, work by scientists had shown that, with only limited interventions, the virus would trigger an “overwhelming epidemic” in which Britain’s health service was not going “to get anywhere near being able to cope with it. That was clear from the beginning.”

That quote about unnecessarily panicking people was from Edmunds, one of the scientific advisors, not Boris. This is finger-pointing among the scientists who were advising the PM. 86.10.101.16 (talk) 21:59, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

But he said: “I do think there’s a bit of a worry in terms you don’t want to unnecessarily panic people.” whats important to remember about boris is that hes a product of eton and a public school system as was Cameron. together they bookended brexit. ive said it before, but eton rifles still depressingly relevant. AMassiveGay (talk) 12:01, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

This came to mind; "Why public schoolboys like me and Boris Johnson aren’t fit to run our country" Kntai (talk) 12:11, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

public school twattery explains so much about british politics. look at laurence fox, for examples. absolutely fuck all to say, but insistent on us all listening to the nothing-at-all he has to say. AMassiveGay (talk) 12:54, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

OpenDemocracy on the mopped haired laundry basket made human https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/boris-johnson-made-politics-awful-then-asked-people-vote-it-away/ Cardinal Chang (talk) 14:47, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

This sums my frustration and despair in a more sane fashion: Covid Report: Read it and weep “Johnson still retains dazzlingly high support in the polls …….!” Leucippus^{Sapere aude} 16:20, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure that they have got that "dazzlingly high support" right. This is his approval rating according to YouGov - or more accurately his disapproval rating. While the position of the Conservative party is like a mirror image. Which is kind of weird.

Uff, that long-term trendline. I don't think anyone really expected Boris to last long, as soon as David Cameron left everything went to shit for the party, Theresa May was short-lived as well. It'd almost be funny if we weren't currently in the middle of a pandemic during Brexit whilst truckers are on strike over shit pay due to the Brexit fiasco. All this because a bunch of white anglos were getting upset at the idea that immigrants were 'taking their jobs', I'm sure this is a familiar theme elsewhere. If you understand this mentality, I think you've cracked the mind of the 'economically concerned' voter. BumblingBuffoon (talk) 15:09, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

I no longer live in the UK so perhaps someone who still lives there could tell me if I have misunderstood - or explain it.Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 16:16, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

essentially covid happened. boris has pretty much been the face of covid uk's covid response, and i imagine you'd could match his peaks and troughs to particular phases of the pandemic. hes also the face of brexit and id imagine his popularity is going to dip further when the shit thats causing and will cause can no longer be blamed on covid. the tories as a whole have benefitted because for much of the pandemic it was the only show in town and labour took the decision to to support the governments measures rather than use it asa means of attack and has essentially been invisible for a large part of it. they are also still reeling from the nadir of corbyn, still reeling from activists who cannot see beyond their own arses and would rather carry on pointless in party conflicts than move forward, with labour not sure what it stands for, with voters no idea what it stands for, no clear message for them to get behind. tories however, the party of brexit, theres no uncertainty or ambiguity for there voters. its brexit all they way for them, and thats votes for the tories. its still too early for the negatives of brexit to sway them, and i have my doubts labour have enough time before the next election to make themselves heard with a strong and distinct message to make them a credible alternative to the tories. we are essentially without functioning opposition, and people are fooling themselves if they think fuck ups from boris will mean labour victory. AMassiveGay (talk) 16:51, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Alleged Rape by Trans Teen at School

Basically, this is all Wingnut media is discussing right now. The full details keep changing, but here's what I pieced together so far.

• Teen, Trans, allegedly rapes girl in High School bathroom
• Teen is arrested, given ankle bracelet, until court proceedings
• Teen attends new High School, allegedly assaults a second girl
• During school board meeting father of first alleged victim creates scene, whole place is circus
• RW media is claiming massive conspiracy to cover it all up

I don't know what exactly happened here, but "male rapists fake Trans status to rape our girls while the media covers it up" is pretty much the right wing boogeyman regarding Trans rights and all. I don't know what we should even do with this sort of story. CorruptUser 20:03, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

I would take that story with a grain of salt. Chances are the media source distorted what happened to make it appear that the trans person was the bad person when it could have been the complete opposite. I will not say that something like that cannot happen but it is very unlikely. --Channel 48 EAS (talk) 20:12, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

I don't know why some people resist believing that there are perverts in this world. I don't know why a pervert wouldn't pretend to be trans-related if it provided them with some advantage. "Unlikely?" Maybe, but how would I test that without depending upon some kind of religious faith? Ariel31459 (talk) 20:17, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Here's a NY Post article on it. Trying to find sources better than "Fox" or "Daily Mail". CorruptUser 20:21, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

WaPo and Newsweek. Focusing on the "trans" part seems iffy, the WaPo story ignores that part entirely. I would too if the detail was just "wearing a skirt", that could mean anything from "fake news" to "faking it" to "transvestite" to "Scottish" (ducks). Apparently a previous offender, which is the more worrisome aspect. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 20:35, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Kind of like the Wi Spa fiasco (which is very much not a hoax, the person behind it is a repeat offender and was already wanted for indecent exposure even before that situation) and the Yaniv fiasco in Canada, you had to know someone was going to try to abuse these protections. People fake having cancer, fake their own deaths, fake being paraplegic for goodness sake. There seems to be a strange aversion to even considering taking that into account when trying to come up with reasonable policies on this, and I don't know why. Even from the standpoint that the real problem is "predatory men" (dubious, since if there are predatory men and women why would it be impossible for anyone else to be predatory), that's an argument for making sure antidiscrimination policies don't allow predators to weaponize them as a tool for carrying out abuse. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 20:44, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

The rightwing media is focusing on both the Trans status and the alleged coverup. As I said, the story couldn't be made more into a more scaremongering tale unless the alleged rapist was also a Black Muslim who uploaded videos of the assault to Hillary's email server hosted on Hunter Biden's laptop in the basement of a Benghazi pizza shop. CorruptUser 20:58, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

there are despicable people from all walks of life and that includes oppressed minorities. there actions should not define the groups they belong to and its unfortunate a groups enemies will attempt to do just that. at the same time i dont think it is entirely helpful to deny their membership of a group when it becomes a liability. it is not required a oppressed group to be saints to be afforded the same rights as any other, and should never be so. AMassiveGay (talk) 21:08, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Of course, but the issue I'm seeing is that instead of the issue being "shitty school district tries to make sexual assaults disappear as they have always done", the narrative is now "shitty school district tries to make sexual assaults disappear to push the Gay Agenda". CorruptUser 21:16, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

questioning of a rapist's trans identity does nothing but feed into that. its not the line to takeAMassiveGay (talk) 21:20, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Read the Newsweek link -- the accuser was a shit-stirrer who previously got arrested in a June school board meeting repeating "critical race theory" and "transgender" talking point babble. It is entirely possible that the assault itself did not happen, from my perspective. Innocent before proven guilty and whatnot.

The whole bathroom issue is a manufactured controversy anyways. There is an actual possible solution that would avoid all this mess. If you Google transgender and bathroom articles before 2010, the solution advocated was "gender neutral bathrooms", as the goal was avoiding the assault and harassment that is too common. Single stalls in this manner would also be useful to other individuals that may have issues with multi-stalls, such as the disabled and families with small children, so it could be rather helpful for a lot of people (and indeed already exist to some extent in many places). A pity it had to blow up the way it did because now it's a cultural identity badge one way or the other. (I wonder what actual transgender people think, I rarely see what their opinion is on the mess.) PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 21:36, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

all that tells me is they are a prick. its not the line to take. AMassiveGay (talk) 21:50, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

their trans identity should be an irrelevance here. right wing media making claims to its importance to a rape case is only reinforced by engaging them not by questioning its relevance to case or to trans people in general but by questioning the rapist's identity, whether thats self declared, presumed, or entirely dubious and false. thats something only rapist can answer and speculation only distracts from the one salient factor - that they raped someone. AMassiveGay (talk) 22:35, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

This hurts my heart reading those articles. There's nothing I hate more than mischaracterization and the usual right-wing pundits are pushing the alleged rumors of misconduct about a trans teen only to push their transphobic agenda. So cringe, I wouldn't take any of this seriously. (Profile) - (Spoke!) 22:36, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

#BelieveAllWomen UpperZero (talk) 22:40, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

I don't know if it's a dogwhistle, but I am known around here for not trusting anyone on words alone, this includes women. Believe nobody, facts are more important to account for than allegations. (Profile) - (Spoke!) 22:45, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

ignoring the above derailing, what is it we are saying here? trans people cannot be rapists? it the message that all this puts out and its a ludicrous one. AMassiveGay (talk) 22:49, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

@AMassiveGay Yes, they can, like anyone else, but here it is an allegation, it isn't proven true and this might be nothing more than a fluke. (Profile) - (Spoke!) 22:52, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

feel like you are missing the point here by a long way. AMassiveGay (talk) 22:59, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

I am more disturbed by Channel 48 EAS stating that instead of the (alleged) transgendered rapist, it is the (alleged) rape victim may be the "bad guy" here.

Also, I visted some right-wing sites for my research into this, and they are not so much saying that they are covering it up, but moreso (at least the ones I checked) that what they have been saying for some time (that transgender or fake-transgender people) are creeps/rapists has been vindicated. An Advocate (talk) 23:03, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Why are we speculating on this? What happened was a crime took place. Whoever committed the crime should be put to justice and shouldn't harm anyone again. Right wingers are scum for even bringing up trans identity like that's relevant (it's not). Why is there lengthy discussion on this? --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 23:24, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Because, Luigi, There seems to be some idea that transgender people can't be terrible people such as any other, even to the point where the victim of the crime is the real bad guy in this story. Sickening, at least to me. P.S., in my notes I read that his dad said his son/daughter wasn't even trans and just liked women's clothes, but the link I have is dead as a doornail. An Advocate (talk) 23:31, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

My nose's stuffed with straw. Who actually suggested we should give sympathy for this person? I've seen assholes on Discord who were excused for their assholish attidue because they were in an unstable country and experienced violence, but I'm not seeing any suggestion here. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 20:48, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

i believe it was the comment from rationalzombie (going by channel 48 here) above. i dont think they quite thought through what they were saying. AMassiveGay (talk) 21:23, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

RationalZombie's little snide is the second comment in this chain. An Advocate (talk) 22:40, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

Well I'm not the only person with brainworms then. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 22:58, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

Reading back, I definitely worded myself very poorly. I was angry with Channel for apologizing for a rapist because of their gender. His quote in question; "Chances are the media source distorted what happened to make it appear that the trans person was the bad person when it could have been the complete opposite" (My reading of it here is that Channel thinks the victim was the "bad guy" here). It made me so angry I just typed faster then I could think, it seems. An Advocate (talk) 00:37, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Well, now the story involved Soros. Because of course it must... CorruptUser 22:13, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

What would be more easier to learn (as an English speaker)

• Frisian
• Afrikaans
• Flemish

I am considering taking a crack at these languages. Even though many consider Scots (not Scottish Gaelic) as a separate language, I see it more as an English dialect so I won't count it. --Channel 48 EAS (talk) 23:21, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Hands down Afrikaans. Flemish is just a dialect of Dutch which minimal differences from standard Dutch. I lived in Flanders and learnt basic Dutch (flemish dialect) and the accent is way easier to pronounce than those from Holland (unless it is West Flemish which is yikes). Dutch is easy. Afrikaans is quite similar but MUCH easier. Frisian would be the hardest to learn because of the serious lack of resources and opportunities to practice. It is a neglected minority language barely spoken by people who even live in Friesland. Afrikaans lacks verb conjugation and other verbal forms (meaning you only need to learn two or three forms for every verbs, just like English, only there are very few irregular verbs). It also has no grammatical gender, like English, which seriously cuts down on having to learn if a noun is common or neutral like in Dutch (and all the changes you have to make with articles/demonstratives). Their spelling is less silly and pronunciation is a little easier. There aren't as many resources to learn it as Dutch but there are sufficient resources. As for use: Dutch is spoken in Netherlands, Belgium, Suriname and a few Caribbean islands. Afrikaans is spoken in South Africa and Namibia with a very small number in two other African countries. Practically all people who speak Dutch are fully fluent in English. A small number of those who speak Afrikaans may struggle in English making them of limited use for travelling except as something fun to try out and a way to please locals. For work, Dutch would be far more useful. Far more literature, philosophy and cinema is in the Dutch language. There is VERY little literature/cinema in Frisian. If you learn Afrikaans first, learning Dutch after will be a total breeze. While Frisian is closer to English than any other language, Afrikaans is simpler and with more resources and speakers it is, in my opinion a better option. Having said that, consider following through with shopping around for languages and start learning one. Pick up duolinguo and start learning vocabulary, look up an online language exchange. At the VERY least, try to learn the numbers from 1 to 10, and memorise ten key words (please, thank you, hello, goodbye, sorry/excuse me, woman, man, key, room, table) and five key phrases (how are you, where is the station, I don't speak much Afrikaans, do you speak English? my name is X). Do that, and you have done more than the overwhelming majority of of those who start to learn a language, and you can definitely go somewhere from there. If you cannot do that in a week, drop it and come back when you have more patience and time and interest or pick another language. Consider finding a ballance between languages you find interesting/attractive and those that have some use. ShabiDOO 02:18, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

I tried learning Spanish, French, Dutch, Greek, Portuguese and Esperanto through Duolingo. I either lose interest or I cannot grasp it. As for the interest, I can never stay focused. With Greek, I also tried through Christian Leadership Institute a few years back --Channel 48 EAS (talk) 02:38, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Learning a language takes a lot of effort, even for an easy language. You progress on a logarithmic scale. For example, in English, if you know 75 words, you'll understand 50% of a given text. To get to 80%, you need about 2000 words, to get to 90%, you need about 6500. [14] So that's why you feel you're making a lot of progress when you start learning, but then you experience a plateau later. You have to be exposed to the language a lot, and that involves changing your lifestyle even. Change the interface languages on your phone and computer to the target language, browse social media in the target language, even think in the target language. LongStylus (talk) 04:43, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

There are methods you can use to solve your fleeting interest in things, procrastination and hopping from one thing to the next. ShabiDOO 17:10, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Possible right wing pundit channel gaining traction?

I was browsing YouTube and the algorithm seems to have fed me a political commentator, if you're unfamiliar, that's a self-label that people like Sargon liked to use. I haven't seen this one around before, the account was created 2020 In January. It seems to repeat the same right leaning garbage about "society is being destroyed by X" and "men are weaker 'now' than ever" traditionalist dogwhistles. It also seems to attack Biden and Vice.

Vice is a left-leaning site and is not one of the best ones (this makes it a good target to appeal to a right-wing audience, by way of cherry-picking). In the reddit moderator video there were vague complaints of 'mods banning for minor reasons' which kinda smacked of appealing to some sexist troll being an outright misogynist and getting banned for 'just joking'. Also would appeal to those who were browsers of r/TheDonald (it even focuses quite a bit on spez). Anyone else spotted some new pundit names popping up recently? 86.10.101.16 (talk) 10:20, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

72% of YouTube's U.S. audience is men.[15] As a whole, men are more apt to vote Republican. Like all search engines, YouTube's search engine favors what is more popular. And video has a bigger impact on people than text. Calspiceo (talk) 13:45, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure that source you linked is indicating that 72% of youtube is male, rather it is saying of U.S internet users, 72% of men and women use youtube. Pew also checked user demographics here, they have a nice breakdown by age and educational attainment too, along with others social media sites. 86.10.101.16 (talk) 16:40, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

The source obviously doesn't say that, this is because this came from a troll who often does not understand the links it posts. A marketing agency puts the ratio at 56% male, 46% female which seems similar to other links I see. It also says that 89% of YouTube users come from outside the US, so who knows how you can translate that into a pro-Republican blurb instantly. Generally speaking, the top Youtube only personalities tend to either be comedians and/or video game players, or very young children playing with toys. This ignores, of course, top channels that often are music and little kids entertainment (nursery rhymes etc.) Even restricting to top news channels on Youtube, there is nothing Western based until CNN at #13. Fox News (at #40) actually is bested by infotainment / gossip program Inside Edition (at #30). Draw your own conclusions... PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 15:33, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Side bar proposal

Knowing that several article categories have side bars, I have two ideas for a side bar- COVID-19 and the Trump presidency. There are numerous pages for both so I think that they are warranted. --Channel 48 EAS (talk) 22:44, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Better to stick to more general topics, I think. tRump gets way more attention than he deserves anyway.Bongolian (talk) 23:29, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Agreed with Bongolian. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Try our pumpkin spice lasagna!} 02:34, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

We should avoid current events and focus on the big picture. Maybe in ten years Covid and Trumpp might deserve a sidebar, but not now. —cosmikdebris ^talk stalk 02:46, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

No, I still think the topics are too narrow. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Try our pumpkin spice lasagna!} 03:12, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

AIDS and cancer both have some controversy and a significant amount of woo about them, and we don’t have sidebars for them either. I like CD’s outlook in that we should take the longview. Probliknaut (talk) 14:09, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Dummy here. What's a sidebar? MirrorIrorriM (talk) 15:38, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm rather with Bongolian and the Duce here. Sidebars aren't for topics so much as categories. Taking Trump as an example, we're talking about a single topic-- a single human being. True, there's rather a lot to say about that single human being, and the article is a long one, but it's still a single article about a single topic.

The same goes for Covid-19, which is a single topic (although there are multiple variant strains). Now, postulate a topic like "Pandemics". There's been a few in history, and if someone was to collect a lot of them, write missional articles on them. and successfully argue for the need to collect them all into a single grouping, we might need a sidebar for that category-- or we might not, since not all categories have or need sidebars.

Just my two cents... Kencolt (talk) 16:44, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

I don't think Trump is as relevant as people think he is, yeah he was bad, but in the grand scheme of things, was he as bad as Bush? It's comparing rotten apples. Given time passes he'll be forgotten like the others, so there isn't much reason to immortalize him above those. BumblingBuffoon (talk) 16:59, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

The reason why Trump was uniquely bad compared to all of the other presidents was because no other president in U.S. history made so many attacks on democracy. You have to remember that this is the only president to have staged a fascist coup in the U.S.. Plutocow (talk) 17:00, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

It's worth pointing out that more than a handful of people basically blame Bush for enabling the Trump presidency to even exist in the first place. You can see the same line of reasoning on this wiki even. (Ctrl+F 'Trump' in that article.) I don't think Trump should get his own special notoriety bar on the front page (a category bar is a different thing, I was thinking of stuff like 'what's happening in the clogosphere' because my brain is bad), it'd be more damning for someone like him to not get another pedestal to sit on considering his narcissism. BumblingBuffoon (talk) 19:21, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

I would argue that beyond the frequency of those attacks, the most dangerous feature was instead the number of attacks on different aspects, all at once, unified only by a cult of personality.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 17:21, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

I would oppose a COVID-19 and Trump sidebars because, unlike Wikipedia, we do not have super many articles, for the same reason I would oppose a weather one, bu I will support a category.Time change coming up November 7, Andrew5 (talk) 17:28, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

This is interesting

Anyone have an opinion of this? ^{— Unsigned, by: 2001:8003:ddb1:c600:3151:6c30:3a76:d70c / talk / contribs}

Yeah, Joe Rogan is full of shit as usual. Over to you, Haaretz:

"COVID in Israel: Slight Drop in Severe Cases, 70% of Serious Patients Unvaccinated" - September 24, 2021

"COVID in Israel: The 17% Unvaccinated Make Up 60% of Deaths This Week" - September 27, 2021

"Unvaxxed 10% of Israelis Are 73% of Serious Cases, 65% of Deaths" - October 1, 2021

What's also important to note is that at this point according to the stories 83% of Israel is vaccinated. All things equal, you would expect that if the vaccine did nothing, 83% of all serious cases would be vaccinated people. Instead, it's nearly the reverse: unvaccinated people are 70+% of all serious cases. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 23:14, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

So you Kent Keith and Joe Rogan is lying then> (I'm 2001:8003:ddb1:c600:3151:6c30:3a76:d70c by the way.) Nommny (talk) 23:18, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Joe Rogan is another one of those people who says that they're on the left, but in reality they're very supportive of people on the right. He probably knows what people want to hear, and what they want to hear is that their theories about why they shouldn't get vaxxed are true. If he went out in front of an audience who he relies on to say "get the vaccine, anti-vaxxers are insane conspiracy theorists", what do you suppose that audience would do if they consisted of those people? I don't like Joe Rogan at all, he's a transphobic piece of shit that platforms right wing grifters. I don't think it is beyond him to lie, when he isn't just wrong. BumblingBuffoon (talk) 09:32, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

I don't think Rogan and his guest knows they are "lying", they have a preconceived notion about the COVID vaccine and are grasping onto a number without thinking very much. Call it the "broscience effect" you see in your bro bodybuilding boards (where someone discovers a small scientific trial with a few positive conclusions and now it's the supplement du jour for "MASSIVE GAINS" etc.), these folks seem to just be not thinking through the whole data. I haven't found the exact UK statistics in the Rogan show, but Reuters broke down a similar claim by US Senator Ron Johnson. Apparently the UK has a similar situation where 80%+ of the people are vaccinated. Unlike Israel more vaccinated deaths seem to be occurring in the UK then unvaccinated deaths, so I imagine Rogan's statistics aren't wrong. But also note that compared to Israel (which is going through a bit of a wave now), the deaths per day in the UK have dropped a *huge* amount compared to the previous "wave" (from around 1000/day in the previous wave around February this year or so to around 100-150/day in this one). Vaccine rates were very low in the UK in February 2021, something might be different, eh? Unfortunately this vaccine only works decently to prevent the virus, it isn't perfect. This Kent_Keith account is outright in the anti-vaxx rabbit hole, which I guess is a natural for a previously full-on Brexiter. When your account's previous pinned tweet is "Vaccine Whistleblower: New vaccine causes sterility in 97% of women!", a post made on November 18 2020 (before vaccines were widely available), and made by former Infowars employee David Knight on Bitchute, you know you've got a quality sucker. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 23:46, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

I think you mean that if the vaccine did nothing then 83% of serious cases would be among VACCINATED people - you slipped an un-noticed "un" in there?? Aloysius the Gaul (talk) 03:21, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes, thanks for the catch, edited and corrected. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 13:01, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

This is interesting as well, Covid 19 Deaths before and after mass vaccination programs. Official Country by Country data as per John Hopkins University.. 2001:8003:DDB1:C600:3151:6C30:3A76:D70C (talk) 23:43, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Bet you can't explain that. Nommny (talk) 00:02, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Someone missed the memo on the low percentage of vaccinated people in many developing nations currently, which includes as most of Africa. But if you want to believe, there's nothing I can say that will change your mind. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 01:08, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Unconvincing, honestly. Still haven't changed my mind. Nommny (talk) 05:02, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

We're not responsible for your low intelligence. Scream!! (talk) 10:23, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

To be fair, it is difficult to grasp the interactions between mask wearing, social distancing regulations, schools and business being open and closed, vaccination rates in the countries involved, the impact of new variants. It would be interesting to see the source data behind the graph, but it goes by kind of quickly. Perhaps our poster could get us the source information in respect of these variables in each country?Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 16:55, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

As our user is presumably still getting data, I went to the John Hopkins site which is the alleged source of the information. I couldn't seem to find anything produced by them which produces that result but maybe they know a way to do it. I did however find this. As they presumably find John Hopkins a reliable source I thought they might find it interesting.Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 18:39, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Need help with uploading an image

This discussion was moved to RationalWiki:Technical support.

Debumping thread. -- Techpriest (talk) 09:57, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Every time I see the word "conspiracy" or "conspiracy theories", I immediately think of this:

BJ SNOWDEN Conspiracy Rockford the Roe ^{boop my snoot}_{praise Oscar Wilde} 15:37, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

And planned obsolenscence was one of those. (Profile) - (Spoke!) 00:19, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

On a related note (a different genre, though), every time I see "crazy train", as I did on the QAnon page, I am reminded of the Streets of Rage 3 music track with that name. --ApooftGnegiol (talk) 01:06, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

In the words of Jigsaw: You wanna play a little game?

Alright guys, time to play a game. It's called Guess this moron's IQ number. The closest guess to the actual answer wins and will be hailed biggest goat of RationalWiki. Go. Aaronmichael5 18:38, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

200. An Advocate (talk) 18:43, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

85 Cardinal Chang (talk) 21:46, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

3. Wait, you meant IQ, that'll be his Glasgow Coma Score once doctors take him off the ventilator. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:10, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

New featured article: Vagina steaming

Tell your friends! It was on Articles for Demotion for a few months and nobody objected on talk, so I gilded it.

What other silver-level articles are really just a short push away from gold? Someone tried a few years ago to elevate Moon landing hoax to cover status. That should be easy to get up there.

But yeah: we need more cover articles that aren't from 2007. So you know what to do - David Gerard (talk) 23:46, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

I would support Moon landing hoax demotion. I gave it a fairly thorough work-over in June. Bongolian (talk) 00:28, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

China becoming more aggressive

10 Chinese and Russian warships sailed in between the Japanese islands yesterday. As of right now, I do not believe this action violated any international laws, but the hundreds of warplanes being flown into Taiwanese airspace most certainly do. My guess is that the naval activity around Japan is connected to the Taiwan Strait issue, and could be a kind of warning to Taiwan-U.S. allies in the region. I'm also aware of numerous naval vessels sailing through the Taiwan Strait, which is definitely a response to the heightened aggression on part of the PRC. Anyways, it legitimately looks like we could be heading into a fourth Taiwan Strait crisis here. Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 03:55, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

The CCP just wants to make a show that will play well on tv at home. They don’t want to rock the boat too much in the South China Sea. It’s not in their interest to get into an actual fight. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Try our pumpkin spice lasagna!} 04:15, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

While I'm not disagreeing with you're idea, none of what I've mentioned involves the South China Sea. That's an entirely different theatre of activity and aggression. However, considering Hong Kong, it is evident that the CCP is willing to make substantial transformations to their surrounding geopolitical milieu. So I will agree and disagree with you by saying that if the CCP does take over Taiwan, it would be a semi-bloodless political takeover like Hong Kong, and that it is possible that they are firmly intent on accomplishing this. Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 04:25, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Taiwan borders the South China Sea. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Try our pumpkin spice lasagna!} 04:50, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

If they try to take over Taiwan, there will definitely be blood. Plutocow (talk) 04:32, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

@Plutocow How so? How do you think their takeover of Taiwan would be different from Hong Kong? Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 04:36, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

For one, Taiwan is an entirely separate country with its own government. Hong Kong has limited autonomy but is still owned by the PROC, while Taiwan has its own military. And when you consider that 90% of Taiwan opposes the PROC's attempts to gain control over them, they are definitely not going to just allow China to take over. Plutocow (talk) 04:39, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Taiwan is also a US interest and is separated from the mainland by a wide strait. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Try our pumpkin spice lasagna!} 04:48, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Duce. This is a show-actually triggering war, given the inter-connectedness of the modern global economy (and that's just for starters) would take a insane (note that I did not say "bad" or "evil" but insane) leader coming to power on one or both sides. That's possible in the future but isn't true right now.-Flandres (talk) 04:52, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

@Flandres What kind of message could the PRC be trying to send with this behaviour, and how do you think the situation will evolve over the course of this century? Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 05:36, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

PROC wants China restored to its rightful place as the Mifddle Kingdom - by which is means it is the center of the world and everyone else is arrayed around it. It has a stranglehold on the South China Sea- unless someone actualy starts shooting to remove those islands they will never leave. It sees USA as fundamentally weak and able to be manipulated through money-politics and trade, and it is taking its chance to step into the gap. Going to take some pretty big changes in the world for it to fail I reckon - nothing about the USA at hte moment inspires me to think they can usefully stop them. Aloysius the Gaul (talk) 08:13, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

CCP planes did not fly into Taiwanese airspace - they are flying into the "Air defence zone" - this is an area much larger than the actual airspace in which Taiwan has an interest in air defence and wants to identify any aircraft in it - it even covers part of mainland China - eg see https://www.ft.com/content/858e24a9-1370-4b1e-853f-845eaf7d25c6 - CCP planes flying on most of it are NOT in breach of any international law. Aloysius the Gaul (talk) 08:13, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

West Korea got too much going on at one time, India, Tibet, Taiwan, and a growing international relations problem amidst the Covid pandemic. Oh, and a shitload of corruption that is undermining its political stability along with a growing wealth divide. I don't think it is in a good spot to try anything too aggressive. BumblingBuffoon (talk) 10:43, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

The one thing that might be able to stop China is its impending demographic crisis, which could leave much of China looking like Detroit. Plutocow (talk) 21:43, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

They could try a reverse one-child policy, where every family must have one child. /s LongStylus (talk) 21:51, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Couldn't a belligerent power, when faced with an internal crisis, react by becoming even more aggressive? Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 03:15, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

That sounds a lot like Rally round the flag effect. That's a fairly big speculation to make for me, but the reality is that conflict will not benefit China. BumblingBuffoon (talk) 11:54, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ China has exactly what it wants from this situation already: a propaganda enemy to unite their people against and a nice military show to keep their citizens watching tv rather than asking difficult questions. Escalating to actual violence would earn them nothing and cost them a hell of a lot. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Try our pumpkin spice lasagna!} 23:34, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Oy vey

8 feet of snow possible on West Coast.Time change coming up November 7, Andrew5 (talk) 13:39, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

You do know that the USA isn't the whole world and that this is an international wiki, right? These are the times for clock changes for most of Europe for example.Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 15:03, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

I always thought that Europe was the same time as USA, I just thought that it was that they were 3 1/2 weeks later. I knew the USA went forward in 2007 by a week but I didn’t think Europe wouldn’t follow suit. When I get back home I’ll fix that. Andrew5 mobile (talk) 17:07, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Here is Australia. There are other places which don't do the daylight saving thing at all. The world is a surprising big and complex place and it is sometimes a little irritating when citizens of the USA assume that everyone does things the same way as the US.Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 19:50, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

@Bob M I changed my signature to reflect it's USA only, bearing in mind what you said. I'm not worrying about AZ or HI though. They are only 2% of America's population and I'm not making it any more complex. (Btw, Australia also has a time change on October 3). American time change coming up November 7, Andrew5 (talk) 20:29, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

WHATS THIS ABOUT AZ NOW?! Kidding. I am very thankful I don’t have to deal with daylight savings like the rest of the US. Hey @Bob M isn’t it great getting to just have slightly shorter or longer days without needing to mess with all your clocks? Also @Andrew5 I am thrilled for the implications of all the west coast weather what with the horrendous drought we all face. Probliknaut (talk) 22:27, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

FL (at least the ET part) shouldn't have DST, nor should GA. I personally oppose DST except from early September to early April. But I do like the fact that sunsets are still 6:04pm, inspite of 7:12am sunrises. Before DST day lengths are 7:30am-5:43pm, then it goes to 6:31am-4:42pm. Early sunrises can be lethal when they can be avoided. When it goes foward, it goes from 6:08am-5:58pm to 7:06am-6:59pm. It's weird how it works. American time change coming up November 7, Andrew5 (talk) 23:28, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Should we have an article on the Mad Cow Disease or BSE epidemic in the UK

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meYnivLLl-A (Documentary)

It would be related to medicine and complete government incompetence during the time Margret Thatcher was PM of the UK. Just a thought. --Channel 48 EAS (talk) 01:12, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

It exists: Bovine spongiform encephalopathy. Bongolian (talk) 00:24, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Uh, your youtube link goes to a channel called Mad Cow Disease Videos 2, the actual video is blocked in the UK, on inspecting the channel we get some very suspicious videos linking BSE to vaccines and growth hormones, as an alternative to 'conventional' explanations. In linked video, it is suggested that hormones were used to "create a breed of super cattle", which is inferred from a 1999 Article in the observer here. BumblingBuffoon (talk) 13:58, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Didn't know that. I was simply looking for documentaries. --Channel 48 EAS (talk) 16:15, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Article on Vladtv YouTube channel?

Been wondering if Vladtv YouTube channel is worthy of a Rationalwiki article? For those unfamiliar Vladtv is essentially the hip hop version of the Joe Rogan Experience. Like Joe Rogan, Vladtv features many urban celebrities and rappers as well as a vast number of fringe and crank perspectives from scam artists,homophobic bigots, misogynists, and even the occasional Nation of Islam or Five percent nation member for good measure. The channel also features (ex)mafia members and some of your favorite adult film stars;) Would this be worth consideration?SensaurC-137 (talk) 12:06, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Given how this summer we deleted a lot of YouTuber's pages, I'd tilt no for now. American time change coming up November 7, Andrew5 (talk) 14:05, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Looks like a hip hop / Black entertainment news site. I wouldn't object if RW's hip-hop article was updated with the homophobia / transphobia / misogony issue that hangs over that genre (such is not unknown in other pop genres, but hip-hop's had decades of some of the worst cringe stories IMHO, like that DaBaby incident mentioned in the Chappelle thread, although it also has counterexamples like the recent success of Lil Nas X). I'm not seeing a reason to include this site in particular. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 22:45, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

I also want to mention that this channel is features a vast amount of conspiracy theorists which I believe is in line with RW’s mission(although i guess that should go without saying considering it has given Nation of Islam members a platform and is quite popular with currently 4.2M subscribers though admittedly its not as popular(or politically oriented) as The Rubin Report or the aforementioned Joe Rogan Experience podcast …. and did I forget to mention that Vlad has interviewed some of RW’s favorite adult film stars;)SensaurC-137 (talk) 00:56, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Would you rather

Sit nude on an ant nest for 3 hours OR	6	Vote
Be forced to walk naked around Beijing for 3 hours	24	Vote

BeardOfZeus (talk) 01:15, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Do I at least get some Beijing street food? Probliknaut (talk) 03:09, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

No glass please. BumblingBuffoon (talk) 13:05, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

What type of ants and would anyone be watching? There are some pretty benign ants near me, but people can see. 82.46.167.158 (talk) 17:28, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes, this does need some clarity. Where I used to live in the countryside there were non-stinging black ants. No real problem sitting on top of them on a sunny day in the Welsh countryside.

With regard to the Beijing one. Are you going to pay for my airfare and hotel bills and cover any legal problems? What sort of hotel are you going to arrange for me during my stay? If the conditions were OK, I could probably get behind that one as well.Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 20:08, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

i look good naked so why would walking about the place nudey dudey be big deal compared to a physically unpleasant and potentially painful experience with ants? and what is the significance of being in china? midday in the sahara, or anytime of day in arctic would be more problematic. AMassiveGay (talk) 20:38, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

What did the ants do to deserve this? --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 22:14, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Where I'm from, all ants are considered evil. BeardOfZeus (talk) 02:56, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Walking naked around Beijing for three hours? Is that some kind of "white monkey job?"UncleKrampus (talk) 21:07, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

This is how you skate

Grayson Fletcher is from surfing royalty (son of Christian Fletcher)—and it shows, utterly laid back, style with ease. Leucippus^{Sapere aude} 21:27, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

The extent of my boarding experience is from Tony Hawk games. It is always baffling to see real-life people successfully doing this stuff. Probliknaut (talk) 03:52, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I used to play Tony Hawk’s “Proving Ground”—decent game, though spectacularly unrealistic. With regards to skateboarding, I used to skate in my teens but gave it up mainly because I was less-willing to seriously injure myself than others were. I do envy those for whom skateboarding seems to comes naturally and ‘reckless abandon’ is an alien concept. Leucippus^{Sapere aude} 21:16, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Any free online counseling services for LGBT+ people?

Due to my lack of trust in mental health professionals in my area due to it being Trumpland, just need to know of online counseling services. --Channel 48 EAS (talk) 00:07, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

You may find these useful: LGBT National Hotline 888-843-4564 (https://www.glbthotline.org/national-hotline.html), and The Trevor Project, which has phone/texting/chat support (https://www.thetrevorproject.org/). You can also find a list of support services here: https://lgbtqia.ucdavis.edu/support/hotlines. Bongolian (talk) 02:13, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. --Channel 48 EAS (talk) 21:16, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Idea for modernizing RationalWiki's UI

Hi everyone. I just woke up so this isn't going to be as fleshed out as I would like it to be. but I was thinking we could add something similar to where in Wikipedia when you hover over a hyperlink to another article, it displays an infobox about that article just above the link. Thanks all. KinneticSlammer (talk) 08:21, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

It used to: We're waiting for someone to update the system. Scream!! (talk) 10:21, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

It's been a few months now. Anyone know how much time it might take? — 𝗦𝗾𝗿𝘁-𝟭 ^{talk stalk} 16:25, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

No fucking clue and it's getting embarassing. -- Techpriest (talk) 22:29, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

@User:Techpriest Excuse me, but maybe Kinnetic meant this and this? — Exaskliri _(they/them) (talk | contribs) 11:38, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes I know what Kinnetic meant. The thing is, our preview boxes are a gadget, but it's just an import from wikipedia right now. It likely broke on a mediawiki update (enabling it throws an error about regex in the console), and since MW update for RW is still on the to work list, even though I've been banging on about it for nearly a year now, there's no ETA on getting it updated. -- Techpriest (talk) 21:53, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Richard Dawkins’ Mum helps young man come of age.

we now know the source of Dawkins’ prejudice Leucippus^{Sapere aude} 22:20, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

I don't understand, what is Dawkin's prejudice? I mean, Dawkins is a pretty open and accepting person. BeardOfZeus (talk) 22:35, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

It’s a stupid throwaway joke, relating to Dawkins’ prejudice towards people with Down’s syndrome. Leucippus^{Sapere aude} 22:45, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

He only like people with 46 chromosomes per cell? Yikes... BeardOfZeus (talk) 22:49, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Some people with more than 46 chromosomes are actually more or less healthy. See XYY syndrome. More accurately, he is an ableist, not a 46-chromosome chauvinist. LongStylus (talk) 01:06, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Not to mention that humans really should have 48 chromosomes, but there was some error way back in our history and two simian chromosomes got merged into the largest non-sex chromosome. CorruptUser 01:35, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

And a chromosome with a tremendous amount of absolutely useless genetic material just floating around. On the plus side, it does make humanzee/chuman hybrids impossible, so that myth is rather easily dispelled. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:54, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Not impossible per se, just much more difficult. Horses and donkeys have different numbers of chromosomes (64 and 62), yet mules are a thing. The only experiments confirmed to be done were done in 1920's Russia. Reading further, human sperm won't penetrate a chimp egg's membrane, but they will penetrate those of gibbons and gorillas. It's unknown if chimp sperm can penetrate human eggs. It's also unknown just how far the fetus would develop, most likely the mother would detect something wrong and the fetus would abort. Such experiments tend to be a bit unethical, of course, and no scientist wants to be known as the next Dr Harry "monkey-raper" Harlow.CorruptUser 04:35, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Richard Dawkins is a cranky, old man who ruffles the feathers of feminists, Muslims, Down's Syndrome parents, transexuals and others. His parents had some foresight when they named him Richard - because he is such a big dick. He's arrogant, overconfident and dickish. Riggs (talk) 00:30, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

And yet for a man who has in the past stated support for "free of speech" although he was describing "freedom of expression" considering he's British and not a yank, and his many statements of publish and be damned, he seems to have been rather threatening in regards to anything that shows him in poor satirical light. For example, Dan Rhodes' novel, "The Professor Who Got Stuck in the Snow", in which Rhodes' original publisher balked at publishing for fear of libel, leaving Rhodes to self publish it at first before an indie took over. Cardinal Chang (talk) 18:53, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Although my favorite Dawkins story involves him wrestling naked with his postman. Cardinal Chang (talk) 18:53, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

The trollish and reactionary way Dawkins handled losing his 1996 Humanist of the Year award was also embarrassing. He didn't show any humility at all. 47.145.125.78 (talk) 21:04, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

I might be Non-Binary and not trans like I thought (sorry if seems like I am bugging people)

For the last several years I have been confused about my sexuality and each time I think that I figured out the right label I end up being wrong. After taking a quiz, it mention that by my answers, I might be non-binary. I admit that I don't feel comfortable being in a men's bathroom but the thought of being in a woman's bath does not make me comfortable either. I also determined that I would not be able to handle transition for psychological reasons.

Is anybody in the same boat as me? I have been looking for the right identity and have not truly found it. --Channel 48 EAS (talk) 20:38, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

nothing is set in stone. you try one thing and it dont work for you, no problem, try a different thing. its called experimentation and you have your whole to figure things out. not always easy but c'est la vie.

just dont do anything you really dont want to do. AMassiveGay (talk) 21:07, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

also, dont listn to what a quiz tells you. listen to what feels right for you and dont get hung up on the whole trans/non binary/gender queer/cis labels. AMassiveGay (talk) 21:15, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

I just got done watch a video about Non-Binary and it seems right to me. --Channel 48 EAS (talk) 21:20, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

go with that then it that feels a better fit. the label dont really matter though. just be you AMassiveGay (talk) 21:23, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

I just wish we could agree on what "sex" and "gender" are. Personally I think "sex" should be biological characteristics whereas "gender" being more how you generally behave or interact, e.g., "Man/Woman" would be your sex whereas "Alpha/Beta/Sigma" would be possible genders. I also believe genderfluid and transgender are very much things under this system, though transsexual isn't quite at 100%, but I also don't think it'll matter once we figure out how to upload our brains to machines anyway. CorruptUser 21:27, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

EC i only go by gay because its the closest fit and saves time rather than have to explain to anyone and everyone my specifics. kinda wish 'gay' was as broader term as it used to be. labels can be very limiting, theres no sense to me to apply those limits to ourselves, plenty of folk will try to do that for you as it is. AMassiveGay (talk) 21:28, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘You can try transitioning online (i.e. by using a different name and changing your pronouns) before doing anything in real life and see how you feel about it after a while. Just advice from someone who is non-binary (though I myself am not out openly IRL, mainly because there is a lot of bigotry in my area and I don't want to do so until I am fully financially independent). Plutocow (talk) 21:39, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

I, a straight person, can only offer some general advice. Take it if you want:

When you are having a moment of deeply questioning your identity, you should first take stock of your current beliefs, the evidence supporting them, and how much you are willing to risk on these. After this analysis, I suggest you experiment with your prefrences and just go where guiding genius takes you (following your own guiding genius is something I suggest everyone to do). Then, take stock of that new data, and continue as necessary based upon continuity, consistancy, and sense.

I hope I have helped you in someway. Good luck. An Advocate (talk) 22:38, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Years of confusion has been awful but the concept of non-binary seems like the right identity. I appreciate the support. --Channel 48 EAS (talk) 00:48, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Labels are an evil necessity in this world. We hang then on our sexuality, our political beliefs, our religious beliefs (or lack thereof) and many other things. And we need them to describe ourselves to other people, fill our forms or whatever. But they grossly oversimplify complex things.

The important thing is to find a label which must fits you - but then you should not try to fit yourself to the label. You are you, and the label is just a crude approximation of one part up you.Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 08:05, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

I think one user, radio-silent for at least a year now named Forpsionics can expand upon what you said, Bob. They asked whether or not you could define with one trait, using sexuality as an example. They come to the conclusion of "no". A single trait or even a collection of traits like sexuality according to Forpsionics can not accurately or even acceptably measure an individual. An Advocate (talk) 18:42, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

an acceptable measure of an individual? no. but sexuality is pretty big defining trait. it effects who your friends are and it effects who your lovers are and it effects how people see you and treat you, for many it effects how the state treats you and thats to say nothing of the primal driving force sex can be, and were it takes you and your sexuality.

is your sexuality all you are? no, but you'd be mistaken or lying to say it isnt a big part of someone and their lives even if you dont realise it AMassiveGay (talk) 19:43, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

as such one shouldnt get too bogged down with applying a label to ones self that is limiting or restricting or just plain wrong for you AMassiveGay (talk) 19:46, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

I think that is the most valuable point to take out of such discussions, one should not get bogged down by a label. People sometimes think, often when they are young, that they don't know who they are. The theory is, if there were a word for it, one could look up the definition and recognize oneself. This sort of thing works for some people. One eventually comes to understand oneself, though there probably is not a single word to describe that understanding.UncleKrampus (talk) 21:22, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm myself a transgender woman and before I thought so, I thought I was non-binary. It's OK to change your mind the more you know about yourself. Bhp99 (talk) 11:44, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Besides time change, this whole thing is kinda running me down. I would talk to a therapist but because I live in the Trump zone of Michigan, I have zero trust in health professionals in my area on this kind of thing. --Channel 48 EAS (talk) 23:22, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

@Rationalzombie94 Why not? Do you think you know more than a health professional? BeardOfZeus (talk) 23:25, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

I never said that I know more than a health professional. I said that I don't trust them with said information. I mentioned that living in tRump land, it could be a risk to my safety. --Channel 48 EAS (talk) 00:22, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Maybe your afraid the health professional might say something you don't like. BeardOfZeus (talk) 00:26, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Right-wing health professionals do exist, such as Jordan Peterson (although he's no longer treating patients). I wouldn't bet my money on them, to be honest. LongStylus (talk) 00:12, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

It took me a while to tell anybody of my mental illnesses long before this issue and it took much more time to come clean about being sexually assaulted in middle school. Telling a health professional in an area that is a far right stronghold is a huge risk for me. It was never a matter of not wanting to see any professional. --Channel 48 EAS (talk) 22:39, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Something I've been considering...

Should we have a place to list talkpage votes? I've seen talkpages at times devolve into matters that could be settled with a simple vote, but because not enough parties are aware of it, the votes usually don't end up going anywhere and are subjected to the usual bickering and wheelwarring. For reference, other wikis tend to have these as well (I'm shamelessly borrowing this from the MarioWiki talkpage proposals), and we already have centralized places to discuss page deletions and article demotions. -- Techpriest (talk) 21:50, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Possibly. We'd need to update the CS if we do. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 00:36, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

That wouldn't be needed. We didn't update the CS for Cory's AfB (articles for brainstars) page. -- Techpriest (talk) 18:29, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

The CS explicitly covers votes pertaining to the community. An amendment should be made to allow for and govern this in case of future conflict. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 21:13, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

I thought it was AfD, Alternative fur Deutschland Articles for Demotion? Putting "afd" into the searchbar gives "articles for deletion" and the ribbon does have it as "brainstar candidate articles". Umm... yeah, it's my mess. CorruptUser 21:39, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Pansies

Cute trick, using Yahoo news to hide the link to an article from Fox News. Shame I already know that trick since I use Yahoo news as a jumping off feed. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 00:38, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Oh the "poll" in question redirects to a keyword search of articles on Fox's site. Nothing hinky about this article, nuh uh... _{This is one of the sloppiest hatchetjobs I've seen in my life.} ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 00:54, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Won't give the article any traffic (Google is easy to use if you must view Fox News bullshit!) but the article in question conveniently left out Gerald Ford who in reality has the worst post-WWII drop at this point in the presidency, if that means anything. As I don't think this site is very plussed on Biden these days, I'm not exactly sure what point this troll is trying to make, other than it's too stupid to not see through right-wing propaganda sites. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 03:14, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

i seem to remember a certain dogshit troll was adamant trump was going to to be re-elected. finger on the pulse that one. AMassiveGay (talk) 12:37, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

The only polls I remotely trust would be those at project 538. They were the only major one to even suggest Trump had a real chance in 2016. Anyway, Biden has about a 7% deficit in popularity, meaning for every 7 people who at least tolerate him, 8 people don't. But popularity polls never capture just how intensely someone is loved or hated. For instance, Reagan never went more than a smidge above 2/3 support at any point in his presidency and was usually at 50% but his supporters were so vocal you'd think he was the second coming of Jesus. Obama was lower on average than Reagan but he had diehard fans. Trump was a bit less popular than Biden is now, but his opponents were beyond vocal about it. Likewise, few are happy happy that Biden is President, but the people who don't like him, absolutely hate his guts. CorruptUser 14:18, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Ultimately, one flaw in Democracy is that "one man, one vote" can never properly take into account how much people like or dislike various candidates. Candidate A who is absolutely adored by 49% of the people and tolerated by 51% of the public will lose to Candidate B who is utterly despised by the same 49% but only barely more tolerated by the 51% than A. If a candidate isn't getting any votes from Group X anyway, there's absolutely no harm on election results by forcing all the drug dealing, prostitution, and waste treatment facilities to Group X's side of town while raising their taxes, especially if you it lets you court more votes from Groups Y and Z, but if Group Y is already in your pocket anyway it's all going to go to Z. This is one of several reasons I have conspiracy theories about the US government's near-complete dismissal of both poor rural Whites and poor urban Blacks. CorruptUser 16:02, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Guess where this is?

Any chances?

BeardOfZeus (talk) 00:36, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Australia?American time change coming up November 7, Andrew5 (talk) 18:20, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Since the post below indicates you’re an Aussie, ditto. Somewhere in Australia. Why? Probliknaut (talk) 03:49, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

But where in Australia? BeardOfZeus (talk) 04:25, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Honestly I can’t even guess, without cheating. Don’t know international geography. But the borderlines and water near Punkah look like a profile of a face. Do I win? Probliknaut (talk) 22:29, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Presumably somewhere in southern Australia, the one straight border going north and the other going south is a giveaway. But not 100% which border it is. (I do find this entertaining, I grew up using a GeoSafari and kicked my geography-major uncle's ass in world geography just before I turned 6; Sporcle and travels around New England are my outlets now). The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 00:50, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Fun fact - Australia lost a war to emus in 1932. Andrew5 mobile (talk) 18:37, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

@Andrew5 That was actually the Western Australian government that did that, not all of Australia. ^{— Unsigned, by: BeardOfZeus / talk / contribs} 06:06, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Irish/British Cultural Question

In the Blogs there is a YouTube clip of Claire Byrne interviewing Nigel Farage. In it they cut to a clip of Nigel saying something which from the context of the video must have been offensive. As an American with no knowledge of Irish/British history, what did he say? (Apologies if this sentence is offensive) it sounded like he said "up the Rye", but I don't know what Rye means in this context. The only thing I can figure is it might have something to do with the River Rye in Ireland, but it didn't look like a battle was fought there or anything from the Wikipedia page. Can somebody provide context to a clueless person? 😅 MirrorIrorriM (talk) 15:51, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

I assume you’re referring to this video: Farage said “up the RA”, which is an abbreviation of “up the IRA”, it used to be voiced by Irish nationalists/republicans as a way of supporting the IRA; it would usually occur in a longer sentence e.g. “up the IRA, I may not have agreed with their methods, but at least they were ours (I.e. Irish)” . The reason it’s controversial coming out of Farage’s gormless mouth, is the fact that it shows how utterly clueless he is about Irish history and culture. Leucippus^{Sapere aude} 16:46, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Adding to what Leucippus said, there is also the utter tone deafness of Farage, a politician of a particular class in the UK in which the 'RA would have, in all likelhood, target. Akin to Richard Spenser or Milo Yanniopolous raising a cup of whatever beverage is at hand and jokingly going, "Cheers to Anti Fascist Action." or Gunter von Drenkmann raising a toast for financial gain to Der Rote Armee Fraktion!! Essentially highlighting anything and everything Farage was haranguing Claire Byrne about to be utter drivel, that he clearly doesn't care about but will spew forth with passion. Cardinal Chang (talk) 17:12, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

the long and short of it is farage is a public school has-been desperately striving for some relevance. he wasnt supporting the ira as far as i know, hes just a fucking a idiot who said it because someone paid him £80 to say it (something to with that bastion of journalistic integrity GB news, i believe). not sure he even knew what he was saying. i suspect the truly offensive part is invoking 500 years of the struggle against british rule by saying that its wasted and pointless since they are now under the yoke of tyranny (unsaid but bit implied by the language he uses) of the EU. this is his same tactic of invoking the spirit of the blitz, which he equally doesnt understand (he sees it as the last time britain was 'great' and the power of the empire against villainous europeans, little realizing it marked the empires last hurrah as it ended -it was effective dead before the wars end - and ushered in the welfare state and the post war concensus - things a thatcherite tory hates). it works too well in the uk for people nostalgic for the 'good old days' that you'd need to be in your 90s to remember but the same tactic i'm guess wont fly in ireland particularly from someone from and misty eyed for the empire that subjected them. my question is why did they give air time in the first place. just let him fuck off please. AMassiveGay (talk) 19:41, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

He's been working on and off with a tired little troglodyte named Herman Kelly of The Irish Freedom Party, in an attempt to stir up interest in Irexit (Yes, that's the fucking portmanteau they use.) No comment on Herman working in the past with the outright fucking fascist Justin Barrett, lovingly called "Litler" by Antifascist groups in Ireland Cardinal Chang (talk)

I thought it was called "Ireleave", like the Italian "Italeave". An Advocate (talk) 22:26, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the responses. Irish/British relations have always been really confusing to me. MirrorIrorriM (talk) 23:38, 25 October 2021 (UTC)