RationalWiki:Saloon bar/Archive94

This is an archive page, last updated 11 March 2011. Please do not make edits to this page.

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, (new)(back)

Goat rotation

Here are the instructions you need. DogP (talk) 17:18, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

This is both helpful and interesting. A must watch for anybody with a serious interest in goat rotation. ^EXTERMINATE 17:27, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Great. And here I sit with a goat that needs to be rotated 45deg. Now what am I supposed to do? --PsyGremlinKhuluma! 18:50, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

You may only rotate goats by 37 degrees. 45 degree goat rotation is something only a crazy person would do. DogP (talk) 19:38, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Yarr, ye all be crazy lubbers says I. Тy^Talk. 19:41, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

I thought that the movie started with an interesting and promising premise, however the director did not manage to fully explore all the nuinsanes of the subject. Sen (talk) 02:37, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

It got a 24-hour standing ovation at Cannes, IIRC, actually. Blue (pester) 04:59, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't beat this classic. MDB (talk) 11:48, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

handy edit button #

What if I wish to rotate my goat in an anticlockwise fashion? Where are the instructions for THAT? C®ackeЯ 20:06, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Don't do it Cracker. It's very bad feng shui. The goat might even explode under those conditions. ₩€₳$€£ΘĪÐ^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 07:11, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

THIS IS A SCAM DON'T BUY!!!

It says right there "How to rotate a goat by 37°", but in actual fact it really only shows you the initial and the final state. The actual rotation process is TOTALLY MISSING!!!1 I'm totally suing this guy for material and moral damages. Also, I'm not sure what a "Roatation" is. Should that read "Goatation"? --Idiot numbre 188 (talk) 10:11, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Microfinance

Again, maybe not the right place for this but whatever. I'm personally quite interested in microfinance and I'm kind of curious as to what anyone with more business knowledge than I do thinks (or anyone without any business knowledge, so... really everyone). I'm just a student, I'm hoping to pursue NGO work in the field after I graduate, bla bla bla, all of that. However, I've read the criticism of organizations like the Grameen Bank and the positives, and per usual I'm curious. Thoughts? I don't know if there can be a specific "rational" perspective on this, but is there a way for this to coexist with various social/religious beliefs, etc? άλφα^Talk 17:57, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

I know, maybe I just need to go find myself a business forum or something like that, but I like the community here and besides, I'm already here, so... there. άλφα^Talk 17:58, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

No expert in this, but from what I've read it seems like it depends on how it's implemented, like all things. It seems like a pretty good idea in some cases. In others, financiers swoop in, seeing The Next Big Thing^TM, and then leverage it to hell into an unsustainable bubble. Much like our own economy. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 07:18, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

VOTE TO ELECT JEANPAUL THE MASTER OF RATIONALWIKI

FOR

1. JeanPaul (talk) 01:06, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
2. 1:08, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
3. -- ^{Spirit of the Cherry Blossom} 01:08, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
4. --PsyGremlin話しなさい 01:09, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
5. Sen (talk) 01:09, 25 February 2011
6. ^EXTERMINATE 01:12, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
7. C®ackeЯ 01:18, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
8. User:Nutty Roux/sigtalk 03:04, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
9. Tmtoulouse (talk) 03:12, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
10. Seems like the only logical choice really. - π 03:17, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
11. I thought he/she already was...? ~SuperHamster Talk 04:14, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
12. About time someone took some responsibility around here. That will be $314. ħuman 05:34, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

AGAINST

1. --The Emperor _{Kneel before Zod!} 02:43, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
2. Blue (is useful) 03:33, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
3. Тy^Talk. 01:10, 25 February 2011 (UTC) oh why not?
4. Blue (pester) 04:30, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
5. Blue (pester) 04:30, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
6. Blue (pester) 04:30, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
7. Blue (pester) 04:30, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
8. Voting works the way I say it does! Blue (is useful) 04:30, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
9. Тy^Talk. 05:02, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
10. Тy^Talk. 05:02, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
11. Тy^Talk. 05:02, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
12. Тy^Talk. 05:02, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
13. Тy^Talk. 05:02, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
14. Тy^Talk. 05:02, 25 February 2011 (UTC) Sends in the clones.

GOAT

1. Jesus, don't you people have respect for tradition anymore? --JeevesMkII ^{The gentleman's gentleman at the other site} 03:00, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
2. Indeed. Tetronian ^{you're clueless} 04:38, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
3. Seeing as I was asleep when I apparently voted above, I'm now spoiling my ballot. --PsyGremlinKhuluma! 05:24, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
4. Seeing as I was asleep when I apparently voted above, I'm now spoiling my ballot.07:26, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
5. I voat to elect Jean Paul Goatier the Master of RW. ωεαşεζøίɗ^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 08:14, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Silly

This vote is silly, because as anybody who has taken the secret oath knows, Trent is only the leader here because the Cabal of the Followers of the Mighty Lord Jerboa let him think that... Lord Jerboa ^{BOW before me, peons!}

You look tasty. Are you edible? Тy^Talk. 14:36, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Time Cube revised

Yes, I have only myself to blame, but I'm currently on page 2 and apart from Ray calling himself the "cleverest man" and "I have demonstrated absolute irrefutable proof of 4 simultaneous 24 hour days with in a single rotation of Earth," I have yet to see any actual description or proof of his thesis. All he seems to be doing now, is ranting against "dumbass educators" for - I assume - not teaching his theory.

I would read some more, but my eyes are bleeding. --PsyGremlinHable! 07:35, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

And it took you more than a decade to find out? Meh. (talk) 09:55, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

What are you on about, strange person? --PsyGremlin話しなさい 10:01, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Meh. (talk) 10:05, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

I'd forgotten how bizarre that page is. Sure, we all remember the disjointed fonts being used, and the utter length of his repetitive descriptions of his "wisest human" status, but what I didn't remember was how anti-black and anti-Jew he is. Some of his quotes are priceless, though. And, apparently spelling isn't a part of being the wisest human, either. Aboriginal Noise ^{Oh, what a lovely tea party!} 20:34, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, the wisdom of English spelling is questionable, I'll grant him that. --Idiot numbre 188 (talk) 21:30, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

"I didn't remember was how anti-black and anti-Jew he is." If I remember, before 2008 it was only his crank time cube theory on the site. I don't think the racist conspiracy theories started popping up until Obama got elected, at which point there was a bunch of black uprising FEMA concentration camp style stuff on there. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 21:58, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Ah, the Time Cube. Teach the controversy, Psy! Corry (talk) 00:39, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Georgia Legislator: Investigate Miscarriages

Despite the fact I'm generally pro-choice, I thought the claim the "legal authorities will investigate miscarriages" was little more than rhetoric, like the wildly hyperbolic claims you hear right-wingers make about various Obama proposals.

I was wrong. A Georgia legislator is proposing just that. MDB (talk) 11:37, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

There is no position so crazy someone wouldn't advocate it. - π 11:44, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

"Yeah. We know you're devastated about losing your child. But hey, look at the bright side! Extra attention from the Police! I know that would help you in this trying time for you and your family." Republicans, don't fail me now. Quaru^{chisel - You can't explain that!} 14:59, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

"There is no position so crazy someone wouldn't advocate it." Crazification factor Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 19:57, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Custom skin

Please go to Forum:Custom skin. -- Nx / talk 07:22, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Final Fantasy XIV

I don't know if anyone here had the wonderful experience of trying out the open beta and early start of Final Fantasy XIV, but anyone who did knows just how appallingly bad that game was at that stage. So bad that for the first time in my life I actually cancelled my pre-order. So bad, it made you wonder if the game developers had ever seen a MMO or, for that matter, a computer game. So after 6 months what's happened to FFXIV - the PS3 release, which was meant to be around the same time as the Windows release got pushed back to March of this year, the reception of the game was so negative that the production team was almost completely changed after the release of the game, apparently the subscription service still hasn't been activated, Sony's had to extend the free play period indefinitely in compensation and, something I find personally delightful - to buy brand new on Amazon - £8, something like £35 on Amazon back in September. It really makes me wonder how a games company like Sony could fuck it up so completely.-- ^{Spirit of the Cherry Blossom} 21:39, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

MMORPGs are bad, mkay?

Ever since FFVII, my interest sharply declined. I did manage to get a hold of FFIII, though. Pretty fun. Occasionaluse (talk) 21:46, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, enjoyed FFXIII. Much better story-line than XII, but also too linear. But alas, that's going to be the fate of almost all HD games of that graphical quality from now on I fear. It just takes too long to render the graphics for all the side jaunts you used to get in games.-- ^{Spirit of the Cherry Blossom} 21:58, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Oh, and while I remember — Guild Wars, might change your mind about MMORPGs, on account of the fact that it does very little of the traditional MMORPG stuff.-- ^{Spirit of the Cherry Blossom} 22:07, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

It amuses me that something called Final is now on its fourteenth edition. Totnesmartin (talk) 09:10, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

It's a bitch when you make your "final" project and it turns out to be a success. "Okay, FINE then. I'll make a damn sequel, but be warned - this is DEFINITELY my last one this time!" ...and 20 years later. ^postate 13:37, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, according to Uematsu, Square really was going to go bankrupt. FF was it's swansong, turned out to be a life saver. Good thing it did, otherwise no Vagrant Story.-- ^{Spirit of the Cherry Blossom} 15:53, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

My only experience of FF was watching one of my friends play it on the PS1 (don't know which one it was), and all it seemed to be was walking around for a minute, whoosh! You have to battle with this monster. Turn based fight, you win. Walk around for another minute, whoosh! You have to battle with this other monster. Repeat ad nauseum. Just seemed fucking irritating to me. Crundy^{Talk nerdy to me} 15:08, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

FF was always more about the storyline than gameplay. When they tried it the otherway round the product always sucked. It's why 7,8, 10 and 13 were so good, but 9 and 12 sucked. If you are into the RPGs though, and haven't played it before — Vagrant Story. Seriously good game. Dated now (11 years old, and I remember buying it at release like it was yestereday), weird and good.-- ^{Spirit of the Cherry Blossom} 15:53, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Real men play table-top pen&paper RPGs. Тy^Talk. 15:14, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

They do, when they have friends to play them with. *sob*-- ^{Spirit of the Cherry Blossom} 15:42, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Q_Q I know the feeling. Тy^Talk. 15:44, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

(damn EC) I love pen & paper. But play console RPGs when I can. I've played every FF since 4. Not tried XIV yet. No extra cash for MMO's right now. But I've enjoyed most of them. I even played XI for about 3 years. Quaru^{chisel - You can't explain that!} 15:54, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

I stopped caring for the newer titles after FF10. I personally hate 12 with a passion. But I agree though, story in RPG's is more important than gameplay. Persona 4 has the best story of any RPG I have ever played (Persona 3 is a ripoff of Neon Genesis Evangelion). Right now, I'm playing Disgaea 3 and beyond limitless level-grinding, the story is pretty funny. Prinnies rule, dood!--Thanatos (talk) 00:13, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Would you eat breast milk ice cream?

If so, you Brits should have at it. --Leotardo (talk) 15:41, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes.Тy^Talk. 15:43, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

No.Quaru^{chisel - You can't explain that!} 15:50, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

I'd be somewhat hesitant without knowing who it came from, but yeah. Occasionaluse (talk) 15:53, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Technically, isn't all milk breast milk? Just different mammals.-- ^{Spirit of the Cherry Blossom} 15:55, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Probably. But they're very different. And I'm lactose intolerant, so maybe my opinion on the matter shouldn't count. Quaru^{chisel - You can't explain that!} 16:04, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

I can't see that there's a rational reason why not. I can see plenty of emotional ones for those squeamish about those sorts of things but that's different. Hmm... I've just thought of a rational reason - I bet it's bloody expensive. Jack Hughes (talk) 16:37, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

USD23/cone for the flavor they call "Baby Gaga" --Leotardo (talk) 17:19, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

I heard about this a while ago on Radio 4's Food Programme and why not? I was breast-fed as a baby. Any antipathy to it is purely social and irrational, probably because human breasts have become so sexualised. When I was working in a big office a couple of years back, I installed a small fridge by my desk and one of my co-workers was pumping milk for her new-born and storing it in the fridge. We always used to joke with her about adding it to our coffee. Генгис^{Is the Pope a Catholic?} 17:46, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

The only qualms i'd have would be that cows and equipment are rigorously checked for possible disease & stuff. Are similar checks carried out on the human providers & equipment? I've had breast milk within the last ten years - it doesn't taste the same at all - a quite different flavour. 18:05, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Doesn't taste the same as what? Were your humans fed on finest Yorkshire grass or strawberry Pop Tarts? Also most women don't let their nipples hang round near their anus so the hygiene side is not quite so critical as with cows. However, it is important that women observe basic cleanliness like hand washing and wearing a clean nursing bra each day. Washing of the nipples should be done gently and with a light unperfumed soap - the Montgomery Glands exude natural oils which prevent bacteria breeding and you don't want to disrupt them too much. But if it's clean enough for a baby to consume then it should be fine for an adult. As to taste of the ice-cream, isn't most ice-cream flavoured to some degree anyway?  Lily ^{Inspirate me.} 18:25, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

I think the "ick" factor has nothing to do with the benefits and safety of breast milk; it's that beyond infancy humans find consuming anything produced by the body of another human to be unpalatable. --Leotardo (talk) 20:24, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

ORLY? Wẽãšẽĩõĩď^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 20:30, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Depends on the woman FairyCupcake (talk) 18:30, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

I've got to say that this story is a little hard to swallow. Sorry about that. I was under the impression that there was a shortage of real human milk at hospitals - are they really going to find mothers who are going to donate milk so that a shop can sell it at a huge profit?

OK, it could be legit - it mentions real names and a website and <sarcasm> everything on the net is usually true </sarcasm>, but it smells funny to me. And, of course, it's great publicity for somebody.--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 19:07, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Reminds me of dogs milk. Or possibly dog's milk. --JeevesMkII ^{The gentleman's gentleman at the other site} 20:00, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Besides the ick factor, I seem to recall that human breast milk isn't all the great tasting. Certainly, if you took a swig of it, thinking it tasted like cow's milk, you'd be in for a surprise. But I could be wrong - it's been months since I was last breast fed and the memory isn't what it used to be. But on the whole - no. Blerg. And given the price of a cone = approx R250, I'd rather have the damn fine meal in a restaurant that could buy me. --PsyGremlin말하십시오 20:44, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

There is a fairly high risk of transmitting HIV through breast milk (it is not mentioned on the risk chart). Milk fat will only give you atherosclerosis which may kill two out of every three people (heart disease and stroke), or maybe cancer if it makes you fat. Unicow (talk) 20:33, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

WIN AN OVERLAND ADVENTURE TO LIBYA AND EGYPT

A friend of mine who's on the Lonely Planet UK mailing list showed me this, their monthly competition for Feb 2011. Nice timing, LP. Weaseloid^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 22:59, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, you can't say it wouldn't be an adventure. --JeevesMkII ^{The gentleman's gentleman at the other site} 01:50, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

First read as "Lousy Planet" - David Gerard (talk) 10:34, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm holding out for an all-expenses paid weekend in a cylinder of methane and hydrochloric acid. Mmmm, ethnic. Concernedresident ^{omg!!! ponies!!!} 22:15, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Yay for voodoo

CNN: "Candles used in voodoo sex ceremony caused a fatal five alarm fire after they tipped over and ignited bed sheets in a Brooklyn, New York, apartment, authorities said Friday."

Lesson: Don't do voodoo sex ceremonies. ~SuperHamster Talk 02:50, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Wasn't planning on anyway, but thanks for the heads up. Тy^Talk. 02:54, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Lesson: avoid synthetic fabrics (Richard, are you listening?). ħuman 07:14, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Hang on - voo doo sex? Is that just an excuse to fuck a teddy bear? ^{ONE / TALK} 21:22, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Stick a Blondie tape in a Teddy Ruxpin. Damn that's hot. Concernedresident ^{omg!!! ponies!!!} 22:17, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Can i add a recipe?

I wanna add a mac and cheese recipe, since i see there is a "Recipe:" prefix for the wiki. Is this ok? Rationalize (talk) 03:26, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes. We love recipes. Тy^Talk. 03:37, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

I've been here for over a year, and until now I had no idea that there was a "recipe" namespace. Awesome. PACODOG^{woof, bitches} 04:44, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Most are good. Some are disgusting. Тy^Talk. 04:45, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Ok I added it :). It's good. Any Qs/improvements, let me know. Rationalize (talk) 04:51, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Needs sprinkles. --Idiot numbre 188 (talk) 11:09, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Lmfao. Rationalize (talk) 12:19, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Icewedge

So, I was bored. And decided to look through CP's marvelous block log, from early 2007. I see there was one vandal(s) who used the name Icewedge.. Who is that? Just out of curiosity. Rationalize (talk) 16:20, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

user:Icewedge. Тy^Talk. 16:21, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Why's he blocked :S. Rationalize (talk) 16:26, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Old school cabal member. Vandal. I don't know any more. Тy^Talk. 16:30, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

He's a sysop, so he could unblock himself whenever he likes. History-wise, he's one of the Evil Vandal Gods the CP sysops are still scared of (along with other big names like Trent, Ames, etc.). From what I remember, Icewedge did a fair chunk of vandalism, and other random people picked up his name in a "No, I'm Spartacus!" way whenever they wanted to do some drive-by vandalism there. But take my recollection with a grain of salt - I don't think I ever interacted with him in a non-trivial way and I didn't keep track of him, so these are really just my foggy memories of 2007. --Sid (talk) 17:21, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Even the fount of all knowledge doesn't have much to say. Totnesmartin (talk) 17:24, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Ah, the young ones. sterile baby-sitter 17:44, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Ahh, The Young Ones Totnesmartin (talk) 18:36, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

You kids... there's a reason there is a range block in the middle of Alaska - some 15 year old kid who 3 1/2 years ago pulled some cool mediawiki exploits on CP (which we then learned how to do to each other here, and how to undo them), then he got bored and after we went RW 2.0 wrote Alaska and the awesome Evidence against a recent creation. He's a good kid, well, I guess young man by now, and every once in a while pops in to say "hi". ħuman 08:41, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm not him. Just wanted to clarify that. SJ ^Debaser 11:36, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Wait, Alaska actually exists? --Idiot numbre 188 (talk) 12:00, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Of course not,it's just a figure of speech. Blue (is useful) 05:32, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Olbermann's blog

Somebody wants to WIGO this, go nuts. Not sure if it fits in CP or blogs.

Right Wing Site “Conservapedia” Writes: “Wonder why you’re hearing so little about the Oscar winners? Because the conservative film The King’s Speech ..."

gets the KO treatment. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 03:33, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Most disgusting...

So, based on the breast milk thing above, what is the most disgusting thing you've eaten?

• Mopani worms - --PsyGremlinKhuluma! 20:46, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
• Sweetcorn. SJ ^Debaser 20:52, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
• Crayfish brains Тy^Talk. 20:55, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

I have eaten nastier things, but they aren't usually considered food by any stretch of the imagination. Except by Byron Hall. Тy^Talk. 21:09, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

• Brawn or possibly tripe neither of which have "stayed down". 20:59, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
• Well, I've never had straight durian, just blended as a pastry filling. It was pretty good, as were chocolate covered ants. Tripe was unimpressive. Probably some of my mother's cooking, which is why I took over when I was 10. Never had balut, or any interest in having balut. Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 21:06, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
• Brussels sprouts. And I'm pretty sure the "chicken" that I ate before getting really ill in Dar es Salaam was actually rat. P-Foster (talk) 21:12, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
• McDonald's "Chicken" Nuggets. At least most of you knew what you were eating. That being said, they were tasty (but knowledge of what they are/aren't is disgusting). Thunderkatz^Ho! 21:16, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
• Bell Peppers. I don't know why, but they are the worst tasting thing I've ever eaten. And I eat crazy shit. Including crayfish brains, alligator, and almost any wild red meat you can think of. Quaru^{chisel - You can't explain that!} 21:18, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Alligator is wonderful. Тy^Talk. 21:30, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

• The Space Shuttle. --Idiot numbre 188 (talk) 21:25, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
• Well, I don't have to eat this but my wife eats pretty strange stuff. One of her favourites is sangrecilla which is nothing more or less than pure congealed pig's blood. It's not mixed with bread or rice or anything else like black sausage - which she also enjoys. Then there's pigs' trotters. A bizarre dish which seems to be mostly gelatine. What else - tripe, brains (though those are hard to get hold of these days), garden snails. All very Spanish.--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 21:39, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
• Haslet. Bloody disgusting. 2nd place: faggots.-- ^{Spirit of the Cherry Blossom} 22:14, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
• I've eaten brain before & didn't mind it - mild white meat flavour with the texture of scrambled eggs. Black pudding, haggis, faggots & haslet are among my favourite meat dishes. I don't much like eating stews & curries with bones in them, mostly because of the unexpected texture of lumps of bone-marrow. I have once or twice chickened out of eating things I'd intended to try (tripe, grilled insects, silkworms) but I'm about to go on a trip to China with someone who has a reputation for sadistically introducing visitors to some of the more alarming local specialities, so we shall see. Really, the most truly disgusting food experiences I can think of are the rather mundane ones, like biting into an apple & finding it's full of rot, or eating a spoonful of porridge & discovering the milk I've made it with has really gone off. ΨΣΔξΣΓΩΙÐ^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 22:21, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Porridge made with milk? Ugh!. 22:25, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

'faggots & haslet are among my favourite meat dishes.' You're sick. You're a sick, sick, sick, user.-- ^{Spirit of the Cherry Blossom} 22:27, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

• Milk that has gone off is truly stomach churning. Генгис^{Is the Pope a Catholic?} 22:33, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

As the milk at one of my grandmother's is usually spoiled, I have grown used to it. Spoiled ricemilk on the other hand, is truly vile.Тy^Talk. 22:37, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

• Food. Meh. (talk) 22:38, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
• Silkworm larvae were pretty disgusting, but living scorpions may be considered worse by some people. I thought the latter were delicious though.--^talk 05:42, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
• A freshly-aborted pig fetus in France (no lie). --Leotardo (talk) 14:49, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
• A Blue Bols and Milk cocktail that we invented at university and drank as a bet. –SuspectedReplicant retire me 15:15, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
• If we're counting drinks, Unicum, a Hungarian spirit, is pretty damn nasty; like a savage bitter version of Jagermeister. But the prize has to go to a bottle of "Confucius Family Liquor" I picked up in Beijing airport. Similar to Unicum but with a bunch of weird undertastes & aftertastes. Щєазєюіδ^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 18:36, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
• Interestingly, a glass of water. I was expecting lemonade so was prepared for that taste, and when something else hit my tongue it was just "BLEUGGHH!!!". Strange that. ^postate 18:55, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

The psychology of taste can really throw you off balance - unusual colours can distort your perception - but I know what you mean, I had a similar experience drinking a mug of coffee which was meant to be tea.  Lily ^{Inspirate me.} 07:44, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

• Some Philippine liver recipe. Some high-profile guests used to rent cottages from my parents and invited us over for some big potluck. I thought it was some type of chocolate...--Thanatos (talk) 00:25, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
• A roll at a restaurant... that had a human hair baked into it. MDB (talk) 11:48, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
• Jambalaya at a restaurant ... with a hair band in it. That went back tout de suite. For some odd reason, that restaurant didn't stay in business very long. ... of liberals? (talk) 19:59, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Citation needed

So our defense secretary has just resigned, finally. I guess most of you haven't heard about this story, but over here, it has completely dominated the news for more than a week now. It was found out that he had plagiarized huge parts of his dissertation, but he tried to weasel out of it by claiming that he had just forgotten to supply the necessary citations. On more than a hundred pages and concerning large parts of what's supposed to be his own argument, sure. Yet, up until a few a days ago, it looked like he'd get away with it because he'd apparently succeded in convincing the majority that he wasn't a fraud and had just made a few mistakes. It took a huge uprising of academics and scientists to finally turn the tide against him and remind people that a convicted liar is probably not the best person to head a ministry. So it's nice to see justice has caught up with this peculiar fraud and the system works, at least sometimes. Röstigraben (talk) 11:06, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

'that a convicted liar is probably not the best person to head a ministry'. Strange, I thought that was a job requirement for both kinds of Ministry. Ah well, you Germans must be used to a slightly more honest form of politician and clergyman than us Brits.-- ^{Spirit of the Cherry Blossom} 14:58, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Usually, politicians will avoid outright lies - when they're in a tight spot, it's much better to stay vague, sidestep the issue or refrain from commenting at all. What makes this case special is the sheer chutzpah of casually telling the nation that he accidentally assembled hundreds of plagiarized pieces into a 400+ page thesis. And almost got away with it. Röstigraben (talk) 15:56, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Were there meddling kids involved? MDB (talk) 18:50, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Indeed there were. They even set up a wiki much like this one and painstakingly documented every single one of his plagiarisms. LArron has written about them here (in German), so that we might be inspired by their exploits. Seriously, these guys were a major factor in bringing him down. It's yet another nice lesson about politics in the age of the intertubes. Röstigraben (talk) 19:31, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Classic commentary

I know this will fly over the heads of our heathen Merkin brethren, but I think those amongst us of a more civilised bent will appreciate the most unfortunate piece of commentary since, "The bowler's Holding; the batsman's Willey."

“”Tendulkar hasn't tasted Swann's balls yet, he might not like them.

--PsyGremlinFale! 11:07, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

It would take some doing to beat Johnners' finest. In the Business section of Friday's Independent it would appear that a financial services company took out an ad in The Economic Times of India with the headline Sundaram Mutual's Golden Showers.  Lily ^{Inspirate me.} 12:24, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

FLOL-- ^{Spirit of the Cherry Blossom} 14:44, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Can't forget this little gem! Totnesmartin (talk) 14:51, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Excellent! And that golden shower one is made of win "Next time you want to invest, look for the golden shower!" --PsyGremlinKhuluma! 14:56, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Then there's Kerry O'Keefe (ABC Radio, Australia) with his Frog in a Bank joke, plus his endless anecdotes and that laugh. Ahh, it's a shame that summer is over down here, no more cricket on the radio.RagTop^{Gone sailing} 04:36, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Don't forget how Ian Botham couldn't quite get his leg over. Crundy^{Talk nerdy to me} 11:21, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Or "Every Prime Minister needs a Willie" CS Miller (talk) 20:56, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Never let it be said that the U.S. Army lacks a sense of humor. During the Vietnam War, for a time, I ran the computer center for the main drug screening analysis laboratory for the Army. Our contract was for toxicology services under Project Golden Fountain. Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 05:53, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Reminds me of the CIA's Wikileaks Task Force (WTF). Totnesmartin (talk) 08:25, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

For the People who never bother to read the chalkboard(i.e. Everyone)

I have made imported a wp template used for their babel project, as we now have articles in French, Russian, and Spanish. We seem to be attracting a new clientèle. I'm confident you can understand how to use it. Yes, even you. For examples see here Тy^Talk. 15:30, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

There's a Chalkboard? DogP (talk) 16:57, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes. On WIGO:CP and here. Тy^Talk. 17:26, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm truly touched that you've used me as the benchmark for stupidity. I must really mean a lot to you. SJ ^Debaser 17:33, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm looking at it and I don't understand it. Could Super Josh explain it?--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 18:11, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

The thing I don't get is the "usercategory" parameter. It doesn't seem to add the user to a category like WP's original template does, right? Röstigraben (talk) 18:20, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

It does not.Тy^Talk. 18:21, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

And it doesn't do anything to the box either, so what's it for? Or did it get broken during the port from WP and should simply be ignored now? Röstigraben (talk) 18:28, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

It got broken in import, I'll try and fix it later. Тy^Talk. 20:53, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

It is broken due to templates, so I'm just goiing to remove that and clean up the documentation for now. Тy^Talk. 21:00, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

No, I was just confused about it, I don't think it's necessary to have categories. Not if it requires serious work, anyway. Röstigraben (talk) 07:37, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

I haven't bothered looking at it Bob, as I would feel foolish and embarrassed for not immediately understanding it. I already knew I was stupid, but it took a courageous man like Tyrannis to point it out to me. From now on when I wake in the morning I will think "woe with me, if only I was as handsome, smart and successful as Tyrannis. I bet he gets all the girls while I masturbate and cry in my lonely corner of the world. He even saw through my guise of putting Super in front of my name on RatWiki and now knows about my inferiority complex because he's probably a psychologist or something like that." I wish I was Tyrannis. If I was, I would have a proper understanding of MediaWiki, and when not busy pointing out my superior understanding of it to other editors, I'd spend the rest of my time deleting the other half of the site that I don't like. SJ ^Debaser 19:32, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but I am very concerned because I have looked at it and I don't understand it. Whereas the assumption is that if you were to look at it then you would understand it. So, in fact, you should feel complemented and I must feel depressed.--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 19:42, 28 February 2011 (UTC)--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 19:42, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Or it could be the fact that he won the "noob of the year award" twice in a row and constantly brings his noobishness up, and I felt like making fun of him. I apologize SJ.Тy^Talk. 20:37, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Screw it

Will take too many transclusions fro Wp for the cat system to work prperly. It's just a toy to make userboxes now. Тy^Talk. 21:31, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Many thanks for all your work.  Lily ^{Inspirate me.} 22:31, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

-_- Тy^Talk. 23:26, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I hate WP's templates. you seem to have to import 17 other things to make them work. Pretty much everything on WP is an overcomplicated, bureaucratic clusterfuck nowadays. Totnesmartin (talk) 18:40, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I could do it, but I like keeping my mainspace edit % above 53. Тy^Talk. 18:49, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

It might be an overcomplicated, bureaucratic clusterfuck, but it seems to get the job done in the end. A lot like democracy. ^{ONE / TALK} 09:36, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Fun with mailing lists

I just got two different e-mails that opened with "Dear Unsupported global dynamic element: index=1, parameter=first_name,"

They're not spam; they're both from the mailing lists of leftie political groups. I guess they both use the same mailing service and got the same software glitch.

Either that, or you can call me "Unsupported" for short. MDB (talk) 15:37, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I could make a joke, but will not. Тy^Talk. 15:38, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm reminded of the story of the poor IT type, roped in by a bank to do a mail run to the bank's most important clients. he set up the merge fields, and ran some tests, while waiting for the data file. To do this, he created a dummy database. However, on the day of the run, something went wrong, and the bank ended up sending a whole bunch of letters, addressed 'Dear Rich Bastard.' Is it true? I have no idea. --PsyGremlinParla! 15:47, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Not only is it true but the bank in question (UK Nat West if memory serves) got complaints from those NOT called Rich Bastard - why do you not consider me rich. I'll look it up in Snopes. Jack Hughes (talk) 15:53, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Snopes link as promised Jack Hughes (talk) 15:54, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I used to work on a health care related software system that included prescription refill services. We had a test database, of course. It was amazing how many of our sample patients needed both adult diapers and Viagra. MDB (talk) 16:13, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

They're either randy old buggers, or have some interesting peccadilloes. CS Miller (talk) 20:54, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I recently got an email at work inviting me to some industry conference that started "Dear undefined, as a respected professional.....". DeltaStar_{Senior Sysop}^{Speciationspeed!} 16:24, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Dear Mr Illegal Immigrant... Totnesmartin (talk) 11:26, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

When I worked at NU, someone processed a SQL change against the database which was missing a digit in the date field (they used "number of days since date x" as their date field), and apparently it was discovered just before a letter was sent out billing a dead person for thousands of pounds. Crundy^{Talk nerdy to me} 09:28, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I have a weird feeling...

That the world is in a giant bubble of (relative) peace that's about to burst.Senator Harrison (talk) 04:10, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Who will be fighting, and why? Tetronian ^{you're clueless} 04:13, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Americans hate each other. Libya is a mess. North Korea is crazy. The economy is shit. Gas prices are rising. Tuition is rising. Cost of living is rising. People are getting laid off, aren't getting raises they NEED (like me), or are under-employed. I feel like the people in charge aren't listening or don't care. I'm not talking about all-out war, but everything just seems irreversibly bad. Maybe I'm just not seeing the upside of things. Senator Harrison (talk) 05:05, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

The darkest hour is just before dawn.  Lily ^{Inspirate me.} 08:36, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Or just after the sun finally goes out.(Though that's a long time away.)--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 10:23, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

It's fine - I've seen all the movies. It's you northern hemisphere types that get wiped out. We'll be just dandy down here... until the radiation clouds blow in. --PsyGremlinSiarad! 13:45, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Why worry -- we've all got till December 21(?), 2012 anyway, MDB (talk) 13:50, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

For you maybe. I'm catching the Mothership in May. Got my towel and everything. --PsyGremlinPrata! 13:56, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Why do I have so many MREs? Тy^Talk. 14:06, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

I think that you lot are all thinking far too small, and I for one will welcome our new Insect Lizard Overlords.-- ^{Spirit of the Cherry Blossom} 14:56, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Rapture time? ^postate 18:18, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

You've all overlooked the real danger which will strike at any moment: the zombie apocalypse. Crundy^{Talk nerdy to me} 09:32, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Back to the OP, 'twas always such, and 'twill always be that way. ħuman 12:13, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Best Picture

We've got lots of talk over on WIGO-CP about Andy's bizarre comments about the Best Picture winner at the Oscars.

Okay, RW people, what was your choice for Best Picture this year?

I saw five of the nominees (The King's Speech, The Social Network, True Grit, Toy Story 3 and The Kids Are All Right). All of those were very fine movies, though I'd pick either The King's Speech or The Social Network as the best. From those two, I'd pick The Social Network in a close call, but I'll admit to a bit of bias because I'm a software engineer and a geek, so the movie is about "my people". Plus, Aaron Sorkin wrote the script, and I'm a huge Sorkin fan. MDB (talk) 15:11, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Sadly, living out in the sticks, we rarely get to see Oscar-nominated films before the awards are made. (Hey, is Dicaprio any good in this Titanic thing?) But thanks to the combined wonders of the internet and liberal values, I was able to download King's Speech, True Grit and Black swan - and pegged KS, Firth & Portman for awards a while back :) I thought True Grit was meh. It lacked the usual Coen punch and quirkiness. --PsyGremlinPraat! 15:16, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

I saw The King's Speech, The Social Network, True Grit, Black Swan, and Inception. I think all of those except True Grit were good material for the award, but it was painfully obvious that The King's Speech would win. As to MDB's original question, I'd have picked The Social Network as well. Blue (is useful) 20:03, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

I have only seen Inception. Was OK, entertaining at least. Ace ^{of Spades} 21:57, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

I forgot I also saw Inception -- fine movie, but there was no way it would win Best Picture. MDB (talk) 11:58, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I think the fact that both I and MDB forgot to mention we'd seen Inception, speaks volumes. Good movie, but not one that sticks in the mind. --PsyGremlinHable! 12:24, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Odd, that, considering the subject matter.

Seriously, though, it was released during the summer; enough time to make it difficult to remember. Had I bothered to look at the nominees list before posting mine, I would have listed it. MDB (talk) 12:36, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, The King's Speech won four Oscars (admittedly, some of the "big" ones). But Inception also won four, and The Social Network won three... there was no way Inception was going to win Best Picture, but both will be able to say "Winner of four Academy Awards" on the DVD cover. Blue (is useful) 12:52, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

A vicious question

I was asked about the meaning of word "vicious" yesterday. And I said that it meant something like "exceptionally violent or aggressive".

The other person took issue with me and claimed that it was the adjective used to describe someone who suffered from numerous vices. This was news to me so I looked it up. What I find is that when I look at American references it does indeed seem to have this meaning.

But I still find it hard to believe. Does anyone here use the word "vicious" to mean afflicted with vices?--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 16:38, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

No. Тy^Talk. 16:45, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

No. DogP (talk) 16:47, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

dictionary.com - which is US based - gives "addicted to or characterized by vice" as the top answer. As a Brit I tend more towards the "savage; ferocious" definition which comes in at #7. Jack Hughes (talk) 16:54, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/vicious has definitions/uses from both a US and a UK dictionary. I also lean to the UK use.--ZooGuard (talk) 16:58, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

OK - but would the "vice" definition even have occurred to you if you had not looked it up (anybody)?--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 17:09, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

No. It wouldn't. Тy^Talk. 17:13, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

(vicious ECx2) Chambers gives the primary definition as violent or ferocious with faulty or unsound coming in fourth. As the Latin root means faulty I guess you could say that vices were faults but extrapolating sloth and gluttony to viciousness seems like a semantic step too far.  Lily ^{Inspirate me.} 17:14, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

I've never used it (or read of it being used) as above but the vice root word has occurred to me a couple of times And yes, thank you, I am a root word geek. Totnesmartin (talk) 18:27, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

I have referred to myself as a "vicious drunk" in the past by which I mean I am a ferocious drinker. But it could also mean that I am a nasty drunk (which I am not) or that drinking is a serious vice (which it is). Interesting... Ace ^{of Spades} 21:59, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Mmmm, a seperation of language there. In the UK, a vicious drunk would be an angry or violent drunk. Bonus intertubes to those who know about the lulz involving the confusion between the vicious, viscous and sticky bows in Demon's Souls.-- ^{Spirit of the Cherry Blossom} 00:22, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

As a cryptic puzzler, if I missed the "full of vice" meaning I would kick myself quietly. Words just don't mean what you "think" they mean - they mean "everything" they mean. ħuman 12:05, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Loving Murderer

I just wanted to say thanks, everyone, for the awesome Examples of God personally killing people article. I've been using that as inspiration for a facebook post-a-day kind of thing. I know it's kind of obnoxious, but it's basically in response to some guy I knew in college that posted dumb "god luvs all of us!!! --John 2:2" kind of posts every day.

Anyway, my girlfriend's mother ended up getting into the fray. It took her 2 posts before devolving into "we can't understand god! he loves you!!!!" nonsense. If anyone is interested, I'll post a screencap when I get on a computer that can access facebook. CowHammer (talk) 21:59, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

What, they didn't even try to involve hitler in any of this? Crundy^{Talk nerdy to me} 09:34, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Surprisingly, no. I really hope someone does bring it up in a post eventually, though :) CowHammer (talk) 15:04, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Ignorance is Bliss

How many of these are fake?--Thanatos (talk) 19:51, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Male circumcision ban in SF

Discuss. I'd love to hear from Jews, Muslims, cut men, uncut men, men who have vaginas instead of penises. It's an interesting issue. Also, spellcheck on Chromium red-lines "vaginas," but is okay with "penises." This is even more interesting to me. P-Foster (talk) 19:43, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

I am a circumcised ex-Christian. I did not learn what a foreskin was until 17. And I am opposed to genital mutilation of children. Adults can do it if they like, though why they would want to is beyond me. If your religion requires circumcision of infants... go somewhere else. And Firefox also has the same redlining. Тy^Talk. 19:54, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Some are going to want to have mutilated genitals. I'd wager that circumcising an infant is safer and much less painful than circumcising an adult. --62.142.167.134 (talk) 20:00, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

That's flawed. If your argument is "Some are going to want to have mutilated genitals", then circumcising infants isn't rational - how can they know if they want to have mutilated genitals, let alone anyone else know? & Research suggests that they do find the procedure painful (see WP:Circumcision#Pain and pain relief). The proposed ban is only on child circumcision, so adults who "want to have mutilated genitals" will still have that option. Inevitably, the opposition to this is going to come from religions which see child circumcision as a sacred duty. Wéáśéĺóíď^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 20:18, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Тy^Talk. 20:20, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

The parents believe it's in their children's best interest to have the circumcision done when they are very young. It's irrelevant if it hurts the babies somewhat, since it's ultimately for their best. --62.142.167.134 (talk) 20:40, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

It's only "ultimately for their best" if we accept the view that it's OK for parents to dictate their children's religious and personal choices throughout their lives. I was raised by moderately religious parents but left religion behind when I was old enough to have figured out my own ideas about how I view the world. Fortunately my religion wasn't one which has left me with any permanent physical scars. Wèàšèìòìď^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 21:06, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Maybe the spellchecks prefer "vaginae"? - Longfellow (u t c) 06:43, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I also think that circumcision is just another form of genital mutilation; the only difference between this and female circumcision (a.k.a. the evil version) is that it happens to be socially accepted by certain religions. There's nothing rational about the arguments for circumcision, especially the dubious health arguments that get trotted out when circumcision proponents have to argue the case among the non-religious. While I'm sure that pulling out all one's teeth would result in fewer instances of root canal, no one would seriously argue that. Junggai (talk) 07:56, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

My thoughts:

This will undoudbtedly result in a court battle as soon as parents of a newborn boy want to have him circumcised for religious reasons in SF. (Actually, it's more likely they'll do the bris, then be prosecuted for it, unless someone does a "we're going to circumcise this child, come and stop us" stunt.) Now, the courts have pretty consistently ruled that you can't harm your child just because you think God tells you to do so, but that's generally referred to things like extreme abuse, completely withholding medical care for terminally kids, and the like. You don't see Jehovah's Witnesses getting hauled into court because they didn't take little Timmy to the pediatrician for a case of the sniffles. Now, there's certainly an argument to be made that circmcision is bad, but it's not on the scale of denying chemotherapy to a twelve year old with end-stage cancer.

For what it's worth, I'm circumcised, but since I, like most men of my age, had it done around the time I was born, I literally don't know what I'm missing. Like Tyrannis above, I didn't even understand what it meant until my late teens.

I'm not even sure if such a person exists, but it would be interesting to here from a man who was circumcised after he became sexually active, and continued to be sexually active after the procedure. (Is circumcision ever done to adults for medical purposes?)

Of course they do, if you'd ever bothered to look. But I know how the truth is regarded around here. Fall down (talk) 12:51, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

1. It's rude to post in the middle of Hello! ^{ONE / TALK} someone else's post.
2. I asked a legitimate question that I didn't know the answer to. MDB (talk) 13:25, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

I once discussed with an Orthodox Jewish friend the completely hypothetical idea of me converting to Judaism, and the subject of "what do they do to a male convert who's already circumcised?" came up. She told me they basically do the ritual with a small pin-prick. I'm not sure if they fully circumcise adult males who convert before circumcision -- of course, since Judaism is a religion that does not seek converts, that's a pretty rare case. MDB (talk) 12:41, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm circumcised, and when my kid was born last year, we had him circumcised. I asked the hospital what people typically do, as I don't want him to be the freak in gym class one way or the other. They said by far most people still cut their kids. I also had a friend in HS who had to get his cut when he was 7 because it gave him "problems". I'm really not sure what that all meant. Maybe it was BS. But he remembered it. I didn't. Since kids that young cannot remember anything, because of infantile amnesia. So, maybe I fucked up. I dunno. Quaru^{chisel - You can't explain that!} 14:29, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

I think the ban is a good thing. Hell, I was circumcised as a baby and I couldn't walk for a year afterwards. --PsyGremlinRunāt! 14:41, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Meh, I've never understood people who are, almost, militantly one way or the other on circumcision. Personally, I think it's unnecessary and, should I have a theoretical son, I likely wouldn't have him circumcised. But it's not like I'm someone who would/n't for some moral reasons or cosmetic reasons, and I think people who do choose to have their kid circumcised because "they'll look normal" are flawed in thinking that there will be some day sometime where the kid'll face embarrassment over being cut/uncut. From what I remember of my youth, such a theoretical instance never occurred in any form. Insofar as the "it's mutilation!!!" crowd goes, I think it's silly how people will become so concerned about that, and not as concerned about things (like the environment the kid will grow up in) that actually matter more. The Goonie 1 ^{What's this button do? Uh oh....} 15:20, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

From the NHS website:-

“”Routine circumcision may offer a number of potential benefits, such as reducing the risk of some types of infections. However, the majority of healthcare professionals now agree that the risks associated with routine circumcision, such as infection and excessive bleeding, far outweigh any potential benefits.

So, quite frankly, there are no rational reasons to do it except under extraordinary circumstances. From a personal perspective I find the idea of causing babies pain for irrational reasons abhorrent. Jack Hughes (talk) 17:22, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong. I'm far from a militant about it, am circumcised and doing just fine in the sack. But still I don't see a logical reason why it's not considered genital mutilation, and why there aren't UN task forces trying to stamp it out in the religiously-backwards USA. Junggai (talk) 22:23, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

And lip rings, and neck rings, and tribal tatoos of manhood, etc, etc...you guys are way up there today... Occasionaluse (talk) 22:34, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

My thoughts... I believe I'm speaking for all circumcised when I say: uncircumcised guys, your penises look weird. Maybe that's cool in eastern europe, or whatever, but most fine little american hunnies aren't buying it. I'm glad I don't have a turtleneck, even if there are benefits to having one. Occasionaluse (talk) 22:29, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Not just Eastern Europe, but most of the world. Certainly in the UK, the only person in my school growing up who was know to be was circumcised had it done cos he caught his cock in his fly. AMassiveGay (talk) 23:29, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

^{— Unsigned, by: TeaPartyPlanner / talk / contribs}

*Seeks out plate mail* Тy^Talk. 23:54, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

To quote Ty above, "I am opposed to genital mutilation of children". What possible argument can be brought against that statement? If grown-ups want to slice off part of their genitalia, fine by me, I guess, though it seems a bit weird to want to. ħuman 03:57, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Given that so many people in the US are circumcised, but not so many in the UK, can anyone offer a reason for the difference? ^EXTERMINATE 04:01, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

(UK - An estimated 3.8% of male children in the UK in 2000 were being circumcised by the age of 15")

(US - WHO estimates 75% to 80% of males in the US are circumcised)

I was circumcised because my father was circumcised, his father was, his father was, his father was, and the generation preceding that was apparently Jewish. As for the rest of the US, I honestly do not know. Тy^Talk. 04:03, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

My family is protestant, and my dad's was the first generation to be circumcised in the 1950's, and from the reasons he gave me I've pieced together a narrative of some enterprising hucksters who made the rounds of southern protestant churches saying "Circumcision is for Christians too! Jesus said, 'blahblah,' Romans blahblah. And anyway, it's healthy and guards against masturbation too!" Junggai (talk) 09:47, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Like most, I was circumcised as a baby (even though my family is catholic) so I really don't remember. However, throughout my life, I have enjoyed at least one (and potentially important) benefit: the ladies seem to, ehem, like the way it looks, so that is a plus, right? Especially if I was never even aware that the procedure had been done on me for a long time. Danoso (talk) 06:38, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Chinese men preferred small feet so that girls had theirs bound, the Maya used to clamp board to children's skulls to deform them into a wedge shape, some tribes extend women's necks with metal rings, others insert increasingly large plates in their lips - all this was done in the name of perceived beauty. So given that aesthetics are often culturally implanted it is unsurprising that American "ladies" (I'm assuming that you are from the US) like the look of a circumcised cock as that is what they would perceive as "normal". In the UK normality is uncircumcised and an unprotected glans looks odd (to me). If the prepuce offered no benefit then I'm sure it would probably not have evolved.  Lily ^{Inspirate me.} 09:16, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm mexican. But I agree completely with all the points you are making. I am aware of body deformations made in the name of beauty, and yes, some are barbaric... but some are more barbaric than others, wouldn't you say? Flattening the skulls or enlarging your neck by 5 inches definitely sounds, and looks, slightly more radical. Basically, the point I'm trying to make is, personally, given that I do not remember the procedure itself and that I didn't even found out until much later in life, I have seen nor experienced any drawbacks to it. However, I also completely understand the main issue, which is the mutilation of a child's body part, and when I look at it from that perspective, it does make me cringe a little bit. And on the prepuce evolving... maybe it is just the remnant of the sheat that covers the rest of the primates' penis??? I actually have no idea, so I'm just speculating... but it doesn't sound so far-fetched, right? Danoso (talk) 20:02, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

"but most fine little american hunnies aren't buying it." (quoting Occasionaluse, although Danoso made a similar argument above) See, that's just patently false. A large fraction of (American) women really don't care either way, and then there are some who prefer one over the other (and this goes both ways; I'm sure of it). Also, the argument that it's okay because you don't remember it so you haven't experienced any negative effects isn't holding water either because you don't have the other side of the coin for comparison (and some studies have shown less sensation in circumcised males as compared to their intact brethren, so the other side of the coin might prove insightful). The reasoning behind the law is sound in a rational society, but our society is partially based on books that advise all good people to circumcise their children on the 8th day of their life. Personally, I think such practices may have made more sense for hygienic reasons back then, but most of us have access to a shower and can manage to keep the area under our foreskins clean, so that reason is mostly nullified. I'm uncircumcised, and I've never gotten any strange looks for it; in locker rooms and showers and such people generally mind their own business (in multiple countries with different standards for circumcision this has been my experience), and the only responses I've ever gotten to it have been positive ones from women I've been with (one even stated that she only looked for uncircumcised guys; just thought I'd help make the opposite point from the one I've been seeing in this conversation). Also, when I perform the joke "The Aristocrats," I can pull my foreskin over my head and make a foreskin helmet, as Whoopi Goldberg suggests Aristocrats.ScientificRigor (talk) 20:25, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

This isn't a dark little secret. We talk about this shit. Sometimes in public at parties if it somehow gets there. In my vast conversational experience (and others) women get creeped out by the turtleneck. Some don't mind. I've never (ever) heard of an american woman say she preferred it. This is just me and everyone I know and every women we've talked to, but yeah... you've never gotten strange looks, so you win. What are you going to tell me next? That the ladies like your protruding belly button? Barf. I'm sure your female suitors were kind, but I don't think they'd gasp in horror in front of your face. All I can think about now is a girl blowing me, stopping and saying "this is great and all, but it'd be a lot better if there was a linty flap of skin I had to deal with". Occasionaluse (talk) 22:27, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I have both a delightful protruding belly button and that thing you call a "linty flap of skin". The one is just funny looking and a relic of 1950s UK medical practice. The other is the body I was born with, and one, if I anticipate lingual activity, I make sure it is freshly washed (many times simply bathing in front of the lady in question), and anyway, silly, to get graphic, when it it is hard, the skin rolls back anyway. I can't imagine how men who have had their sexual organs cut into bits and partially discarded can imagine they are somehow "better off". ħuman 12:33, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Hmmph, boys! As an American female, I can honestly state that both types of penis are fun and enjoyable in their own ways. Really, when I'm having sex with a guy, I'm more worried about whether he's good in bed (i.e: is he "all about his pleasure" or will he pleasure me, too) than I am about whether or not he's cut. The computer virus^{Get infected} 00:17, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I've always been concerned with the world "pleasure" being a verb as well as a noun. People shouldn't verb nouns. Blue (is useful) 01:40, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Am I the only one who titters when I see this thread appearing immediately after one called "Custom Skin"? Junggai (talk) 22:20, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

That's funny Junggai. AnarchoGoon ^{Swatting Assflys is how I earn my living} 16:34, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

The Grand Design vs. God

I have just come back from a lecture at a local church from John Lennox. He has written a response to Hawking's The Grand Design and is doing a book tour of sorts. Having read The Grand Design I thought I'd attend.
Now, I knew what to expect - though I don't think Lennox is a creationist I did expect standard "refutation" to be of a philosophical kind as opposed to the scientific and I was not disappointed. While Lennox was kind, affable and obviously enthused he began by claiming that Hawking, after stating so blithly that there need not be a God anymore, had now been elvated into the pantheon of the "new atheists".
Firstly, while jovial, "atheist" was still said with a hint of distaste, secondly he began on a long path of claiming Hawking introduced a false dilemma (it was either God or Hawking - the irony of this you'll see) and lastly he stated that Hawking had long hidden his atheism by using the term "know the mind of god" and even describing the universe a "miracle" in Brief History of Time. Missing the point of Hawkings words and rhetorical flourishes by using media reports of Hawkings words and not the ones of his own (you'll remember the media furor at the time his book came out).
He then turned to Hawkings book itself however, during the entire 50min lecture, did not once touch on the science. Instead, as we have to come to expect from most Christian apologectics, he nit-picked at the language Hawking used and picked a sentence from one page and contrasted it with another several paragraphs down and explained why they were in contradiction. This went on the entire lecture and not once was there any attempt to explain the overall gist of Hawkings idea (M-Theory).
Ironically, as stated above, one of the biggets flaws in his argument was his false dilemma. He posited that Hawking was claiming it was either M-Theory as Hawking understands it or God which is not only a huge misunderstanding (and conflates "Gods" to mean the monotheistic God) but is also the exact same thing he himself is claiming - it is either Hawkings science or his god.
After a few more assumptions and presuppositions he went on to state that even athesist cosmologists like Penrose don't agree with Hawking, suggesting to the 99% Christian audience that, again, he must be correct in his assumption of God because Hawking is incorrect - but without once explaining the science where Penrose and Hawking do agree.
He then trotted out the same misunderstandings (deliberate or otherwise) of cosmology and "nothing" before stating that the Universe cannot logically create itself but avoiding the obvious question of why god can always be extant and he himself can create a universe from nothing.
So far it was fairly typical apologetic fair but came something I had never heard before:
The laws of physics cannot create anything - they merely describe the action, the mechanism. So when Hawking says the laws of physics created the universe it cannot be possible. Again he quote-mined Hawking without explained the gist of what Hawking meant. Hawking says in his book the laws are able to explain why the sun rises and moves around the world but they cannot explain how the sun got there! (Emphasis Lennox's - he said that bit passionately and pointedly).
To back this up he stated the laws of arithmetic cannot create another $1 from $1000 but he misses that A) Hawking is talking physical laws such as nuclear decay or gravity and B) These laws can explain how the sun got there. It was a very misleading argument.
He ended with the appeal to authority (Kepler, Newton et al were Christians) and an appeal to complexity and design.
At question time I asked a question about that fact he would refute Hawking but did not actually once describe Hawkings science but I got no proper reply and the final hour was a sermon rather than a lecture (with a few digs at atheists thrown in plus a couple of appeals to emotion re: the NZ Earthquake).
So, basically, he applied the fallacies fallacy to Hawkings book, committed a few of his own and basically confirmed what I expected. But he was a nice guy all around and I felt pretty glad to have attended - despite having the odd dirty look thrown my way. Ace ^{of Spades} 09:35, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

When I got married (it was just after Hawking released the book and said the "physics doesn't need God" thing) the vicar's sermon was basically along the same lines: "I know dick all about physics, but God exists, QED". Of course, that wasn't exactly the best time to massively facepalm... but certainly Hawking has stirred up some manufactroversy by being a little more explicit about God in the last few years or so. ^postate 10:48, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Wait, that was Ace's longest ever post, and did not mention inebriety in any way, and that's all you've got? "I know dick all..." "facepalm..." and a made up word? My reaction - wow, Ace, thanks for the in depth report on what must have been a complicated situation. Any idea how we can turn that into an article? Either one on Lennox, or a subsection of our Hawking article? ħuman 12:01, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

That was a well-written report and I enjoyed reading it. Have no comments, really, just wanted to share that. ^{ONE / TALK} 14:11, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I also found it an interesting little post and was surprised to see who had posted it. My only disappointment was that Lennox wasn't humiliated in public by Ace's superior atheist intellect - marriage must be mellowing the guy.  Lily ^{Inspirate me.} 17:16, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I am glad you all enjoyed reading my little article. You forget that while I am usually drinking and causing trouble I am also an experienced journalist so I know how to write a decent report. There is some more I could write but I think this sums it up nicely. Ace ^{of Spades} 19:28, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I think your back-and-forths with Rayment show that you know you stuff pretty well, so I don't think it was ever in doubt. ^postate 23:55, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Everyone acted so surprised to find I was the author though. Weird fuckers. Ace ^{of Spades} 00:07, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Journalism is drinking and causing trouble, though, but with a notebook - David Gerard (talk) 10:28, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

You should see the state of my notebook...Ace ^{of Spades} 19:32, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Creationism vs. Fall of Communism

I was reading WP on the Scopes Trial and the following struck me (bolding mine): "In 1958 the National Defense Education Act was passed with the encouragement of many legislators who feared the United States education system was falling behind that of the Soviet Union. The act yielded textbooks, produced in cooperation with the American Institute of Biological Sciences, which stressed the importance of evolution as the unifying principle of biology". Would the recent rise in creationism, fundamentalism and ignorance in the US be related to the end of the rivality with the SU? I don't think so, but... discuss. Editor at CP^{mały książe} 10:45, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

It's possibly a little far-fetched to say that, exactly. But it's an interesting point and could well be a factor in the US wanting to prioritise religion over science. Pretty much all of the US' actions in the last half of the 20th Century were about proving that it had a bigger dick than the Soviet Union, so perhaps there might be something in it. ^postate 11:02, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Some time ago, there was this indie documentary on YouTube about "the Sputnik moment" and the impact it had on US education. I dug it up from my bookmarks now and had the unfortunate idea to look at the comments...--ZooGuard (talk) 11:10, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Wow, I read a half dozen comments before my desk came flying up and bashed into my forehead. - π 11:15, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I've seen worse by YouTube's standards. ^postate 11:41, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

The US is in dire need of a "new Sputnik moment" - not a "New Pearl Harbor" as theorized by some. This place has gotten lazy and stupid. ħuman 11:54, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

China going to Mars might do it. Тy^Talk. 12:51, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I heard first-hand a lot of classroom buzz about Sputnik. I noticed it relating more to arithmetic than biology, but I don't remember a lot of biology happening that year. It was more about spelling, times tables, long division, and Father Junípero Serra. Guess where I went to fourth grade...

The new Democratic Union of Arab States might do it, along with everything west of the Jordan River mysteriously slipping into the Mediterranean. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 13:43, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

There're a few things which will shake the USA into more self-awareness. I think that China becoming the biggest economy in the world, likely to happen in the 2020s, could shake things up a lot. But that could go two ways, depending who is in power. If a good Democrat administration were in power, with a democrat Congress, you could see a large campaign to improve education, innovation, etc, etc. But on the other hand, a shitty Republican administration could respond with, "YEAH WELL WE CAN HAVE MORE AIRCRAFT CARRIERS!!!!111!!!ONE!" ^EXTERMINATE 17:13, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I think maybe a combination of the end of the Cold War in tandem with the counter-counterculture fundie backlash that started in the '80s. That's when St. Ronnie and the GOP in general started pandering to the fundies and the Jerry Falwell Moral Majority thing started. Since then, the religious bloc has gone hard wingnut. Before then the religious bloc was divided between the two parties, especially since FDR and JFK had the Catholic voters locked up. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 21:29, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Speaking of religion in politics, though, I'd like to see the guy who rewrote the Bible without the magic in it try to get past a Gooper primary today. Or just do a poll of potential Repub voters asking "Would you vote for a guy who rewrote the Bible?" It'd be worth a laff. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 21:32, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Oh, you could have loads of fun with a question like that. "Would you vote for a guy who wears sacred underwear and believes Jesus appeared in North American after the Resurrection?" MDB (talk) 13:32, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Brits and Homeopathy

So I was scrolling through the wingnut MPs and it seemed like almost every one of them supported the magic water. I know homeopathy is popular there, but damn. Are all your politicians that fucktarded or just the wingnuts? And why the wingnuts? All the alt-woo stuff in the US is generally the province of the dirty hippies libruls. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 21:17, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

There was a large letter-writing campaign to ask MPs to sign an Early Day Motion saying that people should look into Homeopathy treatment and not reject it out of hand, as I recall... and those who signed it have been associated with it. Not necessarily support it, just idiots. ^EXTERMINATE 10:48, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Early day motions are fairly benign though, they don't really mean a great deal. Still, it was nice that I got a response from my MP when I asked if he was signing it along the lines of 'no fucking way, it's a load of bollocks' (in proper MP-speak though) Worm^{(t | c)} 11:09, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Erm, we actually have NHS homeopathic hospitals, FFS. Makes me weep. Although it did prompt this Mitchell & Webb sketch which is teh funny. Ajkgordon (talk) 12:25, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but we also have the first class House of Commons Report on Homoeopathy. Read it Brits and be proud! (If you haven't read it already that is.)--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 12:43, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

More earthquakes

I live in Wellington which is 300km to the north of Christchurch and is also very geologically active (in fact, it has the dubious recognition of hosting New Zealand's biggest earthquake in 1855). I have been watching the tragedy in Christchurch unfold with a fair bit of anxiety, while mentally preparing an earthquake kit to be purchased this weekend. What makes me even more shaky is that we have had two tremors in the last 3 days. The most recent was 2:20am this morning and shook myself and Mrs McWicked awake rather sharply. Very nerve racking I can tell you. Ominous. Ace ^{of Spades} 19:42, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Stay safe man. Remember the can opener, water, and hand crank radio.Тy^Talk. 19:45, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

And brandy. Ace ^{of Spades} 19:52, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

I thought that would be a given. Тy^Talk. 19:54, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

I got a new I-Phone the other day so my old, fully charged cellphone can also go in the kit. Ace ^{of Spades} 20:09, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Good idea. Do you have a water purifier? Spare cigarettes? First Aid kit? Backpacking stove? Fuel for said stove?Тy^Talk. 20:11, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Most of those things yes. Ace ^{of Spades} 20:17, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Is your water filter Iodine, chlorine, or hand pump? Тy^Talk. 20:19, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

We got loads of purification tablets. Ace ^{of Spades} 20:24, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Good. Propane or gas stove? I prefer the light gas ones myself. Also, sorry for the questions, I live in Hurricane country, and am an Eagle Scout so I am interested in this sort of stuff.Тy^Talk. 20:26, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

I do a lot of tramping and have traveled to exotic countries so have quite a bit of kit laying around. Ace ^{of Spades} 20:27, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, I look forward to your memoirs. In the mean time, be careful. Тy^Talk. 20:28, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Bloody hell, that must be pretty stressful. What sort of building are you in? --Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 22:02, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

My house is pretty sturdy so that's OK. My office building is quite old and narrow though which is a little more frightening but I have cehcked and it's up to code as far as earthquake strengthening goes...still....But I feel a bit silly considering nearly 200 people are dead in Christchurch. Ace ^{of Spades} 22:08, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Ahhh shit man, another small one just hit. Ace ^{of Spades} 00:34, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Practical tip for your cellphone - old lithium batteries may not keep their charge for as long. Get a solar or wind-up recharger or spare battery. Also where are you keeping the kit? It should be handy but not somewhere that it might become inaccessible if your building collapsed. I would also include some basic clothing and footwear in case you get caught either in your jammies or even while taking a shower. Also one of those space blankets is handy, either for yourself or to cover someone who is injured.  Lily ^{Inspirate me.} 01:33, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm from NZ - we get drilled about the importance/storage/contents of an emergency kit from year 0. Ace ^{of Spades} 01:37, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I'll have to re-read Ape and Essence - how you Kiwis survived the rest of mankind's destruction.  Lily ^{Inspirate me.} 02:03, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

rsync is an incomprehensible pile of crap

This. --Idiot numbre 188 (talk) 20:52, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Is there a veterinarian in the house?

I don't feel that good

Awesome kitty has been diagnosed with probably having Feline Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy, but unsure until he gets a very expensive visit to the cardiologist. I love the guy to death, but I'm also practically-minded. I can find way better things to do with 500 bucks than to sink it into a cat who looks like he's on his way out. I would rather euthanize him and save him a bunch of suffering than subject him to tests and meds that, if what I understand about the disease is the case, will only forestall/keep him comfortable until the inevitable happens. Any thoughts/suggestions/input from people who know what's what--or just who have opinions on the subject--would be quite welcome. also, i'm out of town and getting this all second hand from Mrs. Foster, so I'm pretty sketchy on details from here. P-Foster (talk) 00:23, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

We all love our pets but at the end of the day it is just an animal that cannot understand what is being done to it when you take it for expensive treatment. Humans can function quite well on a purely mental level (think of Steven Hawking) despite not having a body that would be able to support the brain on its own. Cats, especially, need to be outside, living their feline lives as nature intended. When we adopt an animal as a pet or companion we invest some emotional capital in it and often anthropomorphise them to some degree. When a loved one is ill we want to keep them with us for as long as possible but often this a selfish sentiment because we cannot deal with loss. I am reminded of the story of King Croesus and Solon - Croesus asked Solon if he had known anyone to be more happy than him, Solon replied (and I paraphrase here) that a man's happiness can only be truly measured if he is happy when he dies. In my view extending life purely for the sake of existence is not noble and that is why I support the right-to-die movement. With domesticated animals we become their guardians and we should care for them in a humane manner; when it comes to their death we should make it as painless and stress-free as possible whether they be pets, workers or food. By all means keep an animal into its old age but if your cat has already had a good life then don't extend it unnecessarily, especially if it has to go through a lot of stress. In return you can help other cats that might have been abandoned or mistreated and seriously improve their quality of life.  Lily ^{Inspirate me.} 01:13, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

01:16, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, I can't give veterinary advice, but I will say that picture belongs on Cute Overload! Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 02:04, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you Lily. That was perfectly eloquent. And Nebby is absolutely correct, too. P-Foster (talk) 05:27, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I just want to say that I never thought I'd see the day where RW has pictures of pussy in drawers. --PsyGremlinFale! 10:41, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I can't really match Lily's masterpiece, since I'm lazy. I will add, however, that I would try and go with the ethical, humane decision regardless of money. If the treatment would prolong his suffering to no end, then perhaps it would be best to make the end of his life as comfortable and, dare I say it, happy as possible. If, however, the treatment stands a good chance of saving his life, and he'd have a good, happy life, then by all means save him. But this all depends on details, which as you say, we don't have. Whatever happens, I'm sure you'll make the right decision, as long as it's guided by compassion FairyCupcake (talk) 13:45, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

When Blue cat #1 got really ill we took him to the vets who poked & prodded him, shaved his neck to take umpteen blood samples, and put him in a small cage next to a psychotic dog who wouldn't stop barking. When he died I felt bad that his last day was spent like that rather than him passing away peacefully. Crundy^{Talk nerdy to me} 16:15, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

My buddy Oscar recently passed away after a brave fight with cancer that rapidly took over his body and robbed him of his ability to care for himself. It was clear from his x-rays that it was just a matter of weeks or days before he would pass. I hoped it would be painless so that I could spare him the indignity of having to leave the house yet again to get scared and upset in the car and at the vets. My no-nonsense vet honestly informed me that no treatment reasonable people would choose was going to make Oscar better. I could have extended his life by days or weeks by putting him on IV fluids but his body was shutting down and he was too miserable to subject to treatments that the vet said had only a slight chance of success and were painful and invasive. I kept Oscar near me every moment for his last few days in a nice nest lined with his favorite blanket. I held and petted him. I told him what a good friend he was to me for so many years and that I'd always honor him. He passed peacefully in his sleep right at my side. You won't be happy if something similar has to happen with your friend, but if you can manage being sure he's comfortable at home and knows he's loved and in the presence of people who respect and honor him, I imagine you could be satisfied with that outcome all things being equal. I'm sorry you guys are suffering. User:Nutty Roux/sigtalk 22:45, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

*tears up*Тy^Talk. 22:48, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Ditto. That was nicely told, Olde Slutty Crewe. ħuman 05:19, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Segregated whinging

$500 on a sick cat? Do you know how many vaccinations against killer meningitis in Africa that would buy? Life of 1 cat = life of 1000 Africans. Silly twit (talk) 02:22, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Internet connection? Do you know how many vaccinations against killer meningitis in Africa that would buy each month? We all reject sacrifices according to our own preferences, so shut up or fuck off. ^{ONE / TALK} 10:13, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Links to skeptical (or sceptical if you prefer) web sites and podcasts

There are a lot of great blogs, podcasts, and web sites out there. Is it appropriate to provide links to them on this wiki? If so, any suggestions as to how to go about it? (Writing as a newbie to RationalWiki, but a longstanding editor of ganfyd, a medical wiki. --Penglish (talk) 01:47, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Try here (at the bottom) 01:49, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Or here 01:51, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

That was quick, SusanG! I've added a few... --Penglish (talk) 01:58, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Podcasts go here.--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 07:31, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Otters

This. Blue (is useful) 03:21, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Ring of Bright Water Go watch it. Now. Тy^Talk. 03:24, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

It's the perfect antidote to Snowbeast. Totnesmartin (talk) 10:23, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

here is something much better! Vincent Price! Тy^Talk. 14:11, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Fuck you Kafka

I don't know if I should blame Kafka or Bill Lee for this one but some shit is going down here and I haven't taken acid for weeks.
Firstly I can't sleep at night because the cicadas around my house keep me awake, then I walk home one day and a cicada flies directly into my open mouth just as I am taking a breath. Then the cicadas start chirping away at 5am ever morning near my open bedroom window. A wasp stings me and the hive chases me. When I walk down my path, the bugs dive bomb me from trees and lamp-posts. I sit in my study at night and moths the size of sparrows crash against my window panes. Something big is scratching around in the walls of my kitchen and just spent the last 40 mins chasing huge crickets around my kitchen. I can hear them now bashing themselves against the window panes and the fly-spray does nothing. Jesus man. Ace ^{of Spades} 10:56, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

You need to call pest control. Or maybe an exorcist. Totnesmartin (talk) 11:00, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

No man, I live surrounded by native bush. When it blows a gale giant fucking stick insects fly through the skylight and into the bathroom basin. While typing this a moth hit my face. The window is open a crack and its too hot to close it. Reminds me of the fucking Amityville Horror. Ace ^{of Spades} 11:05, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Have you considered a flyscreen. That would stop MOST of the insects (except the REALLY tiny ones) and also allow you to have the windows as wide open as you want. LordSlug ^{All Heil Me!} 11:11, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

fuck those ugly screens - I just want these damned bugs to leave me alone. I can hear the thing behind the walls creeping around again...damn it. Ace ^{of Spades} 11:12, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Mrs McWicked reckons it's a mouse but I reckon its a Gila monster. Ace ^{of Spades} 11:13, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

At least you dont have to listen to the sound of possums mating every two fucking seconds... LordSlug ^{All Heil Me!} 11:14, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I can see why they call you LordSlug. Get the fuck outta my walls. Ace ^{of Spades} 11:18, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

HEY! im a metaphorical slug, as in: im lazy as all hell. not a literal one LordSlug ^{All Heil Me!} 11:20, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

heh. thats not the first time someone's suggesting something along those lines... LordSlug ^{All Heil Me!} 11:22, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Get lots of cats. They love moths and might deal with the crickets too. ^{ONE / TALK} 11:33, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I had a cat, we found it wrapped in gossamer, a dried husk. We hadn't seen Mr. Fluffy for weeks. And the thudding grew ever more insistent...Ace ^{of Spades} 11:43, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

That scratching in the walls I'd have it looked at, just in case. --PsyGremlinSnakk! 12:07, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Y̛͉̤̩ͦ̒o̲̺͍̘̤̪̼̖͔͌͌ͦͪͥ̕ü͈̺̹̦͍̝̆̿͡ͅ ̶̄҉̞̮̣̘͎̝c̷̼̖̪̝̩̬̱͉͗̀̓ͬ̀͊͗̕ą̊͊̎͐ͮ̍̌͒͏̺̥l̟̥̩̺ͥ̿ͭ̓̕ͅl̛̹͕̹͓̊̇͋̀̋ͧ̇͂́̕ẽ̡̢͓͍͇̻̰̈́d̄ͧ͂̐̅̎͢҉͖̙̞̪̰̥͎̯ ̷̹̘̼̠͕̺̭̹̗ͭͦ̓̉̀f̨̧̜̬̂ͩ͌o̜͖͗̕r͔̣̯͓ͩ̅͂̒̇̅ͫ͋̇͠ ̵̠̻̊͑̔̽ͬͅt̸͍̤̝ͯ́̎́͆̓̿͆ͫ͘ẖ̷̳͚̥̣̅̐͐ͪe͈͑͑͌ ̲̤͉̠̮̹̙̳̎̀ͣ͋ͫ͟͠o̗̹ͬ̆ͤ̓͞n̰̮͉̰̗̺̪͓͊̃ͥͬ͐͆̃ė̵̻͙̹̟͊́͂ͨͤ́̉͠ ̟̝̳͓͔͔͆̃͢w͔̠̘̆ͬ͆̇͋͜h͓̱͔̰͈̯̄͂͌ͥ̔ͬ́̕ô̢̜͓̦̇̉ͩ̕ͅ ͖̪̣̣̳̤ͥ̽ͫ̆ͭͅẉ̜͔̜̦̠̈́ͫa̛̯̐̾͋ȋ̫̳̮̇̋͊t̞̯̫̞̜͍̉͗ͨͧs̛̻̬ͩ ̨͇̖̬̱̩̜̫͓̈́̉͐͒̉̄ͮ̾ͨ̕b̷̻̤̪ͤ̾̄͐ͣͣ͋̅̂́eͦͦͩ͌͏̯̹̞̹̟͉͔̫̼h̪͕̼̘̰̻͈̖ͨͫͅi̻̺͐ͮͫ̉̍̐n̷̘͉͎̈́͂d̿̾ͮ͏̡̛̭̣̹ ̛̭̤͇̪̅ͅẗ̢͈̜̱̭̣̘̤̼̈͋́hͥ̑҉̟̦̻͎̥̤̥̞e̹̠̟̫̬̍ͬ̄ͤ̄ͩͫ̀ ̷̝̩̜̼̻͙̬ͮ̓ͯ̄ẅ̙̗͐͛ͬ̊͋ͣ͞a̵͒̀̄͋̑͏̺̥̬̬̜ḽ̱̔̌̒̚̕͢l̬̟̗̬̝̰͉͋ͫ͂̓̄͂ͭ̑̇͢s̶͙̗̞̦̘̈̐͊͠?̵̨͙̦̖͈̟͎̖͈̹̋̒͆̂͊ͧ͒̚ Тy^Talk. 14:18, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Translation for those who can't read Zalgo: "You called for the one who waits behind the walls?" LordSlug ^{All Heil Me!} 22:52, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

WTF??? --PsyGremlinPraat! 14:32, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Y̩̪ͩ͋̈́̃̍̽̀ͥ̊e̢͍̞̯ͥ̑͆ͪ͑́̚ ̛͎̣̤̯̳̘̥̜ͨ̔̇̌̒̿̕͡k̞̤̹ͦn̸̲̗̆ͤ͋ͦo̸̴̬̺͎̜͓̒̔ͨ̅ͭw̡̡̧̲͇̥̱̟͇͖̑͑̋̎̂ͅe̷̠͖̬͑͆̑̅͑t̮͙̜̬̭̣̪͊̐́̂ͫ͛̾̎̉ͅĥ͙͓͈̻ͩ͂͆ͧ̈́̔̀͝ ̼̭͖̞̝̺̘͉̙͌̍ͩ̃̑ͧ͌̆n̲͎̠̯̆̾̓̽̋̂ͨ̈ͦͅo̢͍̣̹͈̫͉ͬ̑ͦ͊̿̆ͣ͡ͅẗ̅ͮ̈̑͂͏̦̥̮ ̶̡̦̻͈̈́͊w̰̻̝͔̏͞h̛̺̜̞̦͖̯͇̄ͪ̈́͊̃̊͌ͅỏ̸̟̰̒̇̏̂̍̐͠ ̢͚̤̙̣̖̪̖̖͊̏͒̐̍ͩ̔̈́ͧ͟͠ͅZ͈̞͛͒ͪ̆ͪ̔̚̕ͅa͚̮̬̥ͤ̌ͯͨ͒̂͛̀̚l̢̠̯̩̹̫̬̻͛̐̾ͯ̎ͪ̀͘ğ͏̣o͎̦̲͈͔͉̞ͨ̐̂́͒́͞ ̒͋ͤ͋͜҉̥͍̜̖i̜͉͇̣̫̳̼̫͊ͥ̌̾̐ͅs͚̮͎͓ͥͮ͗̊̐͂͢?̢͈͓̤̳̼̓̏̈͌̔ͦ̉͞ ͖̪͇̬͊͌̀̐͌P̵͕̖̞̘̲͕͒͂͂͘ͅǐ̎͗̈́̋̄ͬ҉͈̝̕͟t̴͚͓͙ͭ̓̾ͯ͆ͤ͞͡y͂̍̃̏̅̒͆͜҉͔͖̰́ ̰̹̦ͨ͂̋͗͗͟͠͠ẗ̸̨̡̞̭̊̃h̜̃̑ͭ̍͐ę̛̠̗̗̹̐ͦ̄̉ͨ̿ ͉̐̇͛ͧ͐̃͛̂͞͡p̱̺̩̯͓̩̟̩ͤͫͯ͞ò̺̣̫̣̼͚ͮͥ͢͡o̵͉̐̃́͋ͫͥ̐͞r̥̱͚̜̤̬͈̲̉͌̄ͫ̊͠ ̧̫̜̟̭̗͈̱̀ͧͨͥ̓ͨ̚c̙͇͇̺̝̗̻̑̾͆̉͢͞r͋ͩ̐̏̀҉̟͇̬̭e̸̼͉̭͙ͩ͆̋͋͜͡a̘̙̰̞̞̾̎͆ͮ͒̇ͪ̌͢͜ͅţ̙̞̫̓̅̓͋ͮ̕u̢͌͠͏̯̟̜̭̭͓r̵͉̘̞͗̎̂̐͞ěͤͥ̀ͅͅ,̗̱̱̙͇̟̝ͭͭ͝ ̥̮̖͔͇͌̑͋̇̃ͯ̏ͫ́ͅḟ̭̥͙͉͓̲̊̉̔ͧ̿̏o̢̹̤͒͆ͧ͒̈́̽̄͘͠r̡̞̙͎̬̖̤͈̉̑̔͑ͨ͂̅̔͘͠ ̸̯̝͖̼͊ͤ̑̐t͈̝̟̬̠̯̀̈̇h̴̫̥̠͇̭̱̬ͦ̑̂̏̈́ͣͭ̈́̀ę̵̩̩ͭ͊̓̔ͫ̐ ̴̫͔͂͢o̫̬͇͍͔̐͑̈̔͐ͤͧn̳̦̠̭̙ͣ̇͑ͤ́͟e̗̠̖̘ͦ̄ͭ̇͘ ̵̹̙̤̰̼̬̫̺͉ͭ̅̇ͮ͊͋̾w̔̇҉͖̗͕̯͇͖h̤̩̱̳̙͉̎̔o̐̅̆ͪ̃͡҉̵͍̮͔̼ ̝̤̠́ͪͫ̐̈͒̋̓l̘͔̗̲̎̑̂ͦ̚̕ũ̯̮͈̮͚͖̞̗̃̓ͫ̑͆̐ͣ̊r̨̬̪̩̻͉̓̉̄̄̈͆ͧ̃̄͡k̢̥̰̥̰̄͊͐͌̄ͧ̓͛͒͘͡s̷̪̪̯͍͓̭͍͑̀͆̄͑͠ ̗̞͉̝͍͕̻̳̺̄́b̶͗́̅͛͟҉̠͈̫͖͓͈͚̣͓ȅ̗̤͓̳͙̹̭͛ͯ͗ͪh̢̩ͤ̒̅͌͝ͅì̵̭̱̜̾́n̸͈̰͚̜͉ͭ̏̋̂ͦd̲͉̪̹̪͒̀͂͂̋ͭ ̧̙̥͕̩͎̤͛̆̉̎ͤ͐̏t̡̠͙̝̥̳̅ͮ͌̄ͩ̕ĥ̴̛̝̜͇͎͙̟̣e͆̑͊ͮ̾̒ͩ̋҉͙̹̹ ̻̝͓ͣͪ̊͑͛͆̎̚͜w̹̘̞ͩ̒a̶̪̮͇̼͌̂ͯ̾͐ͭ̂͊̀̚l̢̛͕͎̲͈̝̫͎ͥ̈́͢l̢̡̮̹̆ͪŝ͚͈̠̝̦̮͈̝̐͗̒̌͟͞ ̺̪͎̥̪̜̬͕̓̆̎̒͡s̴̏͂ͨ͊͏̛͉̫͍̻̗h̸̛̘̰̣̺̗̄͛͋a̧͖̖̹̖͇̋̓̐͒ĺ̫̫̊͗̀͠l̫̫̰̱̬͈͉̂ͤ̓ͩ͐ͧ͝ ̷̝͍͓̠̎̓ͬ͂ͮͅc̷̡̤͙̽ͮǫ̴̵̦̞͐̈m̵̜̲̘̭̗͂͋ͯ̈̇ͪͧ̚͞e̵͈͉͓͔͚̰͑̀͑̀͟,̪̟̟̩̞̭̩̱ͩ̑ͮ ̷̘ͨ̓̆ͣ͗̆ͫ͆a̳̙̜ͣ̿ͩ̽ͣ̅͑̀̚͠nͨ̏̍ͩ͏̵̙̕d͇̥̏ͫ́̽ ̘̝̻̻͙̆̉̆̉ͫͫ̈́a̭̤͚̬͌͆̈̊̌͝ļ͓̗̰̹̮̤̳̾̊͐̆͌̈̂͐͠ͅl̸̸̡͖̥̯̘ͣ́͛ͣ̅̒ͫ͐̔ ͚̩̜̪͙ͤͪ͛͊͂͝ẻ̶̛͍̺̭̟̜̺͗ͨͪͦ͆ͭy̬̭̞̭̠̐ͫͬ̍̂ͣ̾́e͐͆̇͋̈̕͏̴͚sͧ͛͗̃ͬ̾҉͎̯̗̤ ̪͈̰̬̺̤͓ͧͬͩͮ́͠͠s̪͕͚̼̺ͣ̐ͥ̾̌͋͟ḫ̭̰̗̹͎͛̍̾̂ͩ͠ạ̛̭̙̫̥̜̳̈ͤ̂̌̋ͤ͘͢l̤͉͎̭̦̫̓̓͑͑͌ͮͭͦľ̢̳̞̳͈͈̒̿ͧ̂ͯ͝ ̧̪̬͔̇́̈́̚b̵̨̥͓̝̪̜̜͚͒ͮͦͤ̓ͭͅe̴̞̱̩̯͙ͣ͗̋̓͒͋͒͜ ̡͇̰̬̣̜̱̰̉̏̽͒̈́̒͟r̷̛̦̯͎̍ͩ̄e̵̲̙ͥ̎̔ͪ̍͜͡m͙̤̔̇ͬ͆͋̾ͦo̭̲ͦ́͊ͣ̒̊v̡͖̦͙̗̻̼̿͋ͭ͢e͓͉̼͉̊̊͒ͨͥͩ͡d͒̿ͯ҉͇̙̳̹̺̺͓.̴̠̀͒ͭ̽̽ͦͮ̒͡ Тy^Talk. 14:49, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

How?

We can't deny that RationalWiki has liberal-bias. It is more obvious than Conservapedia having a conservative-bias.

So, I created an article about a party that doesn't exist anymore, that is conservative. It is called the Federalist Party. So I think it needs bias. 216.105.64.140 (talk) 17:57, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Please tell me that English is not your first language.--ZooGuard (talk) 18:33, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

It depends on what you mean by "liberal". It is a word which has different social and political meanings in different countries and contexts. However, if - for you - "rational and scientific" mean "liberal" then you would be correct.--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 20:11, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Why does John Boehner hate veterans?

This might be WIGO-worthy, but I'm in a pissy mood and I can't think of a snarkilicious way to phrase it, so...

As you may have heard Frank Buckles, the last surviving American veteran of World War I passed away this week.

Lawmakers from his home state of West Virginia and his own family have asked his remains be allowed to lie in honor in the Capitol Rotunda.

John Boehner is refusing the request, instead instructing the Defense Secretary to allow the ampiptheatre at Arlington Cemetery to be used. Which doesn't have enough space to hold the expected crowds. MDB (talk) 18:13, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Meh. Lying in state is a huge honor that has been granted to very few people in the history of this country, almost all of them statesmen. Giving it to someone just because he happened to live to be 110 is a poor precedent. I'm with Boehner here. DickTurpis (talk) 18:22, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I view it as an acknowledgment of the fact the last American veteran of World War I passed away. Though your argument is not completely without merit. MDB (talk) 18:26, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

They can acknowledge it in other ways (and I'm pretty sure they have). If they wanted to do it as a way of honoring all who served in WWI they already did so for the war's unknown soldier, which covers it much better, I think. Also, I just noticed that the petition appears to be for them to lie in honor, not in state, which is slightly different, but still an honor few have ever had. DickTurpis (talk) 18:34, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I'd think there are better ways of honoring our soldiers than almost arbitrarily singling out one. Occasionaluse (talk) 18:37, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

It wasn't us doing the arbitrary singling out. In any case, when Britain's last veteran died the public feeling wasn't so much about him as a soldier, but about losing our last link to the war. Totnesmartin (talk) 21:15, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Professor values

"You can fuck off". Excellent! 20:13, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Honestly, this is one of the things I don't like about PZ. He's just another pundit who makes every attempt to get his his readers pissed off at every opportunity. Every other day he's telling his opponents to fuck off as if he's perpetually frustrated by the fact that they don't listen to him. Obviously he is aware of the fact that "being convinced" is a function of how a person chooses to act and think, but he seems unable to cope with this on an emotional level. Yes, superstition and religion is everywhere and we feel its negative effects everyday. But frothing at the mouth about it just doesn't seem like an appropriate response, to me at least. Anger-based politics just isn't productive. Tetronian ^{you're clueless} 22:47, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

But it's so much simpler! Look: "Fuck off!" See, even I can do it, and I'm just an idiot. --Idiot numbre 188 (talk) 23:15, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

PS: My "Fuck off!" isn't directed at anyone specifically. It's just a proof of concept. --Idiot numbre 188 (talk) 23:17, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Tetronian: I'd agree with you but these twonks who want to "argue" against evidence aren't worth being polite to IMHO. They strive to blunt the opposition by stopping the use of words like "idiot", "stupid", "ignorant" and "dissembling" on the grounds that they're offensive, not that they're untrue because they can't say they are untrue. </ramble> 02:12, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I've never considered blunt comments to be the hallmark of a sharp intellect. However, as I said before, I'm just an idiot. --Idiot numbre 188 (talk) 20:04, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Toast: I agree that the guy he's talking about is out of line and doesn't deserve civility, but that's no excuse for PZ to go around shouting "fuck you!" just because he can. It's unproductive and it clouds people's judgment. All he needed to do was say this: "This person is making a catalog of every potentially rude thing a skeptic says. This is wrong for reasons X, Y, and Z." And then he should have ended it right there. There was no reason to make emotional appeals to the audience, particularly not the hateful ones that he ended up making. In the end, the only thing this tactic does is widen the social divide between believers and non-believers, making compromise even less likely. Worse stiil, anyone who might be on the fence about the of politics of religion will be instantly turned off by this kind of rhetoric. In summary: I think PZ is being needlessly hateful and unproductive. He may be justified in his anger, but it certainly isn't helping the so-called "culture war" move in a fruitful direction.

188: I don't think PZ's stupid, I just think he's polarizing people and playing to their persecution complexes when he shouldn't be. Tetronian ^{you're clueless} 21:14, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't think that he is stupid either, but I do think that some of his blunt comments tend to make him look stupid. Basically I agree with what you said above. --Idiot numbre 188 (talk) 21:36, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Hee! “The Mongols are beseiging your capital with plague catapults. Choose an appropriately sternly worded reply expressing your disapproval without insulting your attackers.” 22:26, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Are you implying that telling the Mongols to "fuck off" would be an effective way of dealing with the situation? What kind of outcome would you expect? --Idiot numbre 188 (talk) 09:40, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but comparing the current culture war to a Mongol invasion is nothing short of a blatant false analogy. This war is going on in the ballot box and in the minds of the public - no one is out in the streets waving sharp pieces of steel at each other. If your goal is to convince people that your position is more reasonable, screaming "fuck you" is not the answer. Tetronian ^{you're clueless} 18:40, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Funny, I missed the original post he quotes, but I wrote a similar post about the Teabaggers recently. I said "fuck straight off" though.Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 02:23, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

It's not like the other side don't have their own firebrands, in any ideological battle you need to have charismatic figures at the front, wimps can't lead an army. I might not always agree with the tone of many "new atheists" but then I did not agree with all of the feminist crusaders. However, without them to fight the secular (or feminist) corner we would still have the likes of Mary Whitehouse and Stephen Green (supply your own national alternatives) attempting to control our lives and we'd have Creationism on the school curriculum - the Wedge Document shows that reactionary forces have a long term agenda. Most people are unthinking sheep and we need a pack of 'German Shepherds' to alert them of the wolves and guide them to where we would like to them to be.  Lily ^{Inspirate me.} 14:58, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

For Tomorrow

♫ Happy Birthday To You,
Happy Birthday To You,
Happy Birthday Dear Smokey,
Happy Birthday To You, ♫
-- ^{Spirit of the Cherry Blossom} 14:33, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Wow, thank you. But my name's not smokey.--Thanatos (talk) 03:41, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Ah, done up like a kipper. *ha, ah, ha, ah, ha*.-- ^{Spirit of the Cherry Blossom} 15:41, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Opportunity of a lifetime

Have your photo taken with Phyllis Schlafly, only $2500. 18:35, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Reading into it, I think you can get your pic at the patron's reception for only $100. The $2500 deal is having that privilege for life. Can you imagine? You and Big Phy for your Christmas card every year? Occasionaluse (talk) 18:40, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

It would almost be worth it just to show her some of the insanity Andy posts of CP and see if she really agrees with it. MDB (talk) 19:36, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Nah, you'll have to part with at least 1000$ to get your picture taken. There's no lifetime membership either, it's just their confusing overusage of the word "life". Röstigraben (talk) 20:29, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

hmmm...looks like you're right and right. Occasionaluse (talk) 20:31, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Should we have an article on La Neil Spivy or LaNeil Spivy? They can't make up their mind either. ħuman 04:58, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Actually for $2500 you get four tickets to have your pic taken with the old lizard and, as Rusty said, I think that the use of 'Life' is a noun rather than an adjective. Also in the UK spiv(v)y has some unflattering connotations.  Lily ^{Inspirate me.} 13:26, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Did you hear the one about ...

... the cableguy and the babysitter?
Not what you thought, you dirty minded thing, you. (SFW) 22:02, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

No, but good for them. Тy^Talk. 22:04, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Seriously, what kind of moron still keeps pit bulls these days. Especially around small kids. --PsyGremlin話しなさい 15:47, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

One of my Dad's friends adores pit-bulls. Тy^Talk. 23:09, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Behavioral Psychologist posits various critiques of Big Pharma, Big Psychiatry, Big Insurance

I'm new here, yes, and I find this place to be quite interesting. I have a topic which I think aligns with the first three purposes listed on the front page. I'm not coming here to say, do this, do that, you're wrong, I'm right. However, if some of you follow my arguments and agree that there is a place on RW for them, then I would be interested in contributing.

Basically, Behavioral Psychology rejects the "medical model" of mental disability which states "Observable problems are merely symptoms of inner mental illnesses. To reduce the problems, the mental illness must be cured." Psychiatrists, backed by Big Pharma, "cure" the mental illness with pills - "just like a diabetic needs to take insulin pills, so also does a bipolar need to take XYZ."

Behavioral psychology rejects this view. We say instead that mental disability is little more than extremely, tragically bad habits that exist because they produce immediate rewards to the person. (While they might not actually benefit that person, the person has been trained to seek out those rewards because they've been paired with other rewards that have intrinsic value such as food, safety, shelter, love etc.)

Furthermore, behaviorists say that the concept of mental illness is way over-blown. Many problems are labeled a "mental illness" when in reality they are nothing more than regular, normal every-day life problems that every one of our ancestors faced, and not some sort of illness. An analogy would be if suddenly doctors started calling hunger pains an illness, and started proscribing painkillers to fight it.

I know that all that might be a large pill to swallow! It took me years of inundation into behavioral methods and research and results to swing my view around. You may say I am indoctrinated, but please don't because that might hurt my feelings! However, I think there's some ideas that lend support to investigation of this philosophy, even if, based on personal experience, you don't agree with my current statements.

• there has been a HUGE increase in the prescription of anti-psychotic and other drugs to children in the past 10 years. Like, 30% or more. What is the explanation for this? Three options:
  • there has been a 30% increase in the number of children who need anti-psychotics
  • there has been a 30% increase in the ability of doctors to correctly detect who needs anti-psychotics
  • There has been a push by the people who create drugs to get doctors to increase the number of prescriptions
• The medical model says that people who have problems are sick in the head. Not that they were trained incorrectly how to face life's problems. When I was a kid, I was trained how to be a kid. I wasn't trained how to cope with the stresses that I now face as a 20-somethings adult. All of my peer group faces the same problems, as evidenced by all the things I have been seeing about "man-children", that is, people who are not yet ready to face the problems of life even though they are 18. Many of these people are diagnosed with mental illnesses or disabilities; if not by a doctor, then they are certainly presented by the news and society as having some sort of problem - moral or mental.
  • Has there been a change in the number of people who are able to succeed at adult life? Were there "man-childs" 100 or 200 years ago?
  • We used to say that a child was a "spoiled brat." Are all these spoiled brats actually sufferers of the mental illness called "oppositional defiant disorder" for which the correct remedy is medication?
  • is it possible that a person can be trained as a child to grow up to be either a successful or unsuccessful adult?

I hope you find these questions interesting. If so, I would be interested in helping create a rational discussion of their suppositions and conclusions. A lot of the thoughts I presented in this post are based on ideas I gained from http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/ . This blog encapsulates perhaps the most extreme behaviorist position I have encountered and does not reflect the majority opinion of behaviorists but I think that it does reflect the logical conclusions of behavioral philosophy.

Rebent (talk) 16:20, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

I see it mostly as a problem of externalising our flaws, which is something that is well documented. We don't see such syndromes and disorders for the exceptionally intelligent or capable but we do for the less able. For instance, are you a bitch? No, blame it on bi-polar disorder. Are you a little socially awkward? No, blame it on autism. But we don't externalise by giving people with high levels of charisma a disorder (well, cynics might call them socio-paths). It gives it a name and an identity that means your problems just aren't your fault, but your positives are entirely down to you. I realise that's not always the case, as there are extreme forms that certainly go beyond mere over-diagnosis, but there's compelling evidence to suggest that medicalisation is on the rise because people want the quick and easy fixes and want to externalise their problem. I've seen people who visit a counsellor to help them deal with stress and come away feeling better because they've been diagnosed with "anxiety disorder" or "hurry sickness". Now, I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with this as it's a productive step towards dealing with the problem. But unfortunately, these disorders are quite spectral in nature, coming in shades and multiple hues rather than a mere binary on and off, and the line between having a disorder and not having it is blurred or even non-existent; it's not like a broken bone where you have it or you don't. And in these cases its very easy to start massaging criteria so that more and more people are "diagnosed" with something that's just an abstraction of their natural aptitude because we don't want to admit that we might have some sort of flaw. ^postate 16:36, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

(EC) I agree with you to a large extent. I think that a lot of social behaviour problems have been medicalised. The only other concern that I have is that our diet has changed considerably over the last century and we don't know what effect combinations of chemical additives and high sugar content has on our behaviour. I know that some people think that the anti-additive brigade are being anti-science and that they have proved the safety of additives. But that in itself is not scientific, under Popperite criteria you cannot prove the safety you can only prove the unsafety. So, I for one would have nothing against your contributions on the topic.  Lily ^{Inspirate me.} 16:37, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

It's difficult to qualify diet because there will undoubtedly be a strong placebo and well-being effect (not that these aren't important and real effects, of course). But it's known that sugar doesn't cause hyperactivity in children, more that parents who see their children consume sugar attribute their, relatively, normal behaviour to the sugar when really there's no difference. ^postate 16:41, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

I looked at the blog you linked to. We have an article for this - mental illness denial. --ZooGuard (talk) 17:47, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

I think the big difference between scientology and behavioral psychology is that behvaioral psychology uses scientifically validated principles to support its theories. I don't want to argue about who's right and who's wrong, I just think it's a topic that could use further investigation. It's interesting tho but I never made the connection between scientology and behaviorism. However, does the artical on mental illness denial address the issues that B&MH bring up? Not really. Rebent (talk) 18:14, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

First, as "our" article makes clear, mental illness denial is not limited to Scientology. Second, the blog you linked to does claim that there is no such thing as mental illness. So, do you stand behind that position, or?--ZooGuard (talk) 18:36, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Interesting. Personally I have doubts about the scientific basis of the entirety of psychology and psychiatry and there seems to be no underlying theory. I'm also not sure how "behavioural psychology" would differ from "evolutionary psychology". Perhaps our new editor could explain the difference between these two disciplines and and the two approaches?--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 18:01, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Actually I don't really know anything about evolutionary psychology. However, I would guess that they are very similar - frogs with longer legs that are able to jump after bugs faster become more common, in the same way that frogs with the "mindset" to be reinforced by jumping after bugs and so does it more often also become more common. On the whole, tho, behaviorism is more about how the theories of reinforcement et cetera can explain all animal behavior taking into account the genetic foundation that they have. Rebent (talk) 18:14, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

This paper does a really good job explaining the difference, and I think it thoroughly shows why evolutionary psychology makes more sense: it doesn't try to explain evolution from a "goal-oriented" viewpoint since this isn't really what happens. Related (and much, much, much shorter): The story of a blob. Tetronian ^{you're clueless} 18:43, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

There's a bit of a difference between denying that mental illness exists and saying that it's over-diagnosed and over-medicalised, however. ^postate 19:50, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

The first problem with this is that medication is not the only treatment used in psychiatry and psychotherapy. Cognitive behavioral therapy, which is based on behavioral techniques, is the most widely used of these treatments. B&MH looks like Thomas Szasz rewritten from a behavioral perspective where all mental illness is simply a matter of just efficiently reprogramming the person according to outdated behavioral models. The idea that the mind is a blank slate was tossed out decades ago. It seems B&MH have taken the problems with the insurance/pharma corps and their influence on the field and turned it into the vast psychiatrist conspiracy stuff you hear from Scientologists. IOW, it's outright crankery. I'd recommend reading the Steven Novella articles on the mental illness denial page for a very in-depth treatment of ADHD and a debate he had with noted denier Fred Baughman. For a current treatment of the problems with psychiatric practices without the crankery, I'd recommend Ethan Watters' Crazy Like Us Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 20:10, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Brits

Watch BBC2 NOW! (Brian Cox is too pretty for a bloke) 21:00, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Except that due to the innate limitations of education through television, there is next to nothing he can say that hasn't already been said 50 times on as many programmes. MARCVS ANTONIVS 21:38, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

He was brilliant on his Solar System series too. Looking forward to this one. Ajkgordon (talk) 21:53, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Susan, are you saying that you quite fancy him because he looks a bit girly? Silly twit (talk) 03:35, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Dealing with Internet Trolls - the Cognitive Therapy Approach

Interesting article : http://unarmed.shlomifish.org/909.html Alain (talk) 00:02, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Interesting, and consistent with a few things I've noticed here and there (I dare not call them insights.) Here is something I haven't read yet, but which seems relevant. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 01:26, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Capturebot

Dear lazyweb, I need a program to screencap an entire phpBB forum. It has tens of thousands of postings on thousands of pages, so doing this manually via browser extension is not an option. I probably need something I can run from a script. I've tried Pearl Crescent Page Saver; it's a Firefox extension that lets me do this:

firefox -saveimage http://foo.bar/viewtopic?t=42

This is nearly ideal as far as the interface is concerned; unfortunately the extension is buggy and very few pages will save correctly. Any ideas? Love, Mountain Blue 20:42, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Looks like this should do what you need. It uses WebKit, aka Safari / Google Chrome. I assume you know your way around command line scripting. --Tweenk (talk) 01:51, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Why not use our very own capturebot script. Needs PyQT, and QT compiled with webkit support. --JeevesMkII ^{The gentleman's gentleman at the other site} 03:46, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Excellent idea. I downloaded the script and installed the libraries; it largely works. Some pages cause the script to hang for no apparent reason but it's a just a handful or so out of over 25,000. The caps are kind of ugly because the renderer refuses to do Verdana and insists on using my system's ghastly unhinted Helvetica knockoff instead. It also completely ignores <b> tags for some reason; phpBB makes very heavy use of those. For documentary purposes it's good enough though. Thanks for the suggestion. Mountain Blue 01:37, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Boo fuckin' hoo

David Lynch, a prominent American skinhead leader, shot dead. Good riddance! The Spikey Punk ^{I'm punking my punk!} 22:15, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

That confused me for a good minute. I thought you were talking about this guy. Never heard of the other David Lynch, which I guess is a good thing. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 22:19, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I was going to say that David Lynch never struck me as a skinhead.-- ^{Spirit of the Cherry Blossom} 01:48, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

I have long believed it is wrong to celebrate the death of any human being. This is one of those cases where I find it difficult to stick to that belief. MDB (talk) 11:41, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

This thread prompted me to watch American History X again the other night. Awesome film. Ed Norton is such a versatile actor. What MDB said. SJ ^Debaser 11:56, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Shot dead in front of his pregnant wife, who was also shot. Still a fucking tragedy, regardless of his beliefs FairyCupcake (talk) 13:03, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

But what homeopathy has to say about pregnancy --85.76.205.144 (talk) 13:21, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Doctor Slang, I presume

Just found these tidbits on the BBC website in an article noting the passing of doctors' slang.

• CTD - Circling the Drain (A patient expected to die soon)
• GLM - Good looking Mum
• GPO - Good for Parts Only
• TEETH - Tried Everything Else, Try Homeopathy
• UBI - Unexplained Beer Injury
• NFN - Normal for Norfolk
• FLK - Funny looking kid
• GROLIES - Guardian Reader Of Low Intelligence in Ethnic Skirt
• TTFO - roughly translated as "Told To Go Away"
• LOBNH - Lights On But Nobody Home
• CNS-QNS - Central Nervous System - Quantity Not Sufficient
• PFO - drunken patient who sustained injury falling over (Pissed, Fell Over)
• PGT - drunken patient subject to assault (Pissed, Got Thumped)
• DBI - Dirt Bag Index: the number of tattoos multiplied by the number of missing teeth to give an estimate of the number of days since the patient last bathed.

Silly twit (talk) 03:51, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

My Dad is a doctor and all I hear out of his mouth is "fuck". Ace ^{of Spades} 03:53, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but does he write that in the patients' notes? Silly twit (talk) 04:06, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Now I see the date and it's 2003. Silly me, I'm a bit behind the times. Silly twit (talk) 06:13, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

A friend is a qualified nurse, and she says that terms like these are widespread in their use in the UK, however will only be used with a double meaning. CTD, Circling the Drain, would be used... but questioned officially, it would mean Close to Death. TTFO, Told to Fuck Off, would mean, "To take fluids orally." etc. etc. ^EXTERMINATE 15:03, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Most of these are self-evident except "Normal for Norfolk." Explicate? Doctor Dark (talk) 16:22, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

You've not been to northern East Anglia then. Even Stephen Fry, Norfolk's most famous son, admits the underlying veracity. Jack Hughes (talk) 16:28, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Which still doesn't explain it to us Yanks. MDB (talk) 16:37, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Banjo player in "Deliverance" mean anything to you?

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘Previous wife heard FLK from a pediatrician in US midwest. I'm sure he could have been more specific if asked.

One missing from the list is PIP. It is a bit of a dogwhistle: easy for a nurse to say "that one is a pip" meaning pain in posterior. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 16:51, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

An .... Insight?

90% of people seem to think they are among the most interesting 10%. This can probably be generalised. Noodledicksissypants (talk) 17:01, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I would call this the "Meta-Pareto principle". --Tweenk (talk) 17:22, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I would amend that somewhat: "90% of people seem to think they are among the most interesting 10% to people who would be interested in that kind of person. A nerd might thing he is the most interesting person to someone interested in nerds, but not to someone interested in body builders. So there's an additional level of complexity there. Tetronian ^{you're clueless} 17:26, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Never thought of it that way. I'll do my best never to think of it that way again. How is this different from the Dunning-Kruger effect? Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 17:29, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I think the original insight referred to being interesting in general. For example, a person that is not a bodybuilder is much more likely to think that bodybuilders are not interesting at all than a person that is a bodybuilder. The meta-Pareto principle also applies to other positive things which we can say about ourselves, such as intelligence, competence, social aptitude, attractiveness, etc. The difference between Dunning-Kruger and meta-Pareto is that Dunning-Kruger says that lack of competence correlates high the lack of ability to assess one's competence, while the meta-Pareto principle describes the distribution of opinions about competence of some other positive characteristic (e.g. 80% of customers of a company will think that they are among the 20% most important). --Tweenk (talk) 17:45, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Relevant Sen (talk) 17:53, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Exactly! A better formulation may be: On a trait that is not easily quantifiable or not typically quantified (affection, interest, possibly creativity), the vast majority of people believe themselves to be far superior. Noodledicksissypants (talk) 18:22, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Makes sense. I think availability bias may also play a part, since people will mostly likely regard their group as the most interesting group of people around solely because that's all they know. Ex: "Our team's fans (us) are the best fans in the nation." Tetronian ^{you're clueless} 19:14, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm sure this insight is among the most interesting 10% of insights. --Idiot numbre 188 (talk) 22:59, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

23:11, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ To preserve this insight for future generations, I have created meta-Pareto principle. --Tweenk (talk) 00:13, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

British Foreign Diplomacy

For those keeping up with the Foreign Office's continuing shenanigans in Libya, todays Guardian Cartoon.-- ^{Spirit of the Cherry Blossom} 00:59, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Skeptics StackExchange open for business!

http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/

Seems to have attracted cranks like flies to shit. If you feel like wallowing in the depths of human stupidity and replying with your flamethrower deployed, there's plenty of fun to be had here - David Gerard (talk) 10:37, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Oh, my, a global warming troll on the first page. Where are the (other) cranks?--ZooGuard (talk) 11:10, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Fun times ahead, I feel. ^postate 18:38, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

I fear that "skeptics" has way too many connotations for this site to be anything but a massive trollfeed (e.g. "global warming skeptic"). Tetronian ^{you're clueless} 17:23, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

The AGW troll using Pajamas Media as a reference is awesome. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 14:30, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Whassamatta with GMU?

I just put up a page for climate denier Patrick Michaels and I realized that George Mason University, VA, is home to some of the most notorious deniers like Michaels, Singer, and the guy who did the Wegman Report. Their econ department is also full of Austrian school cranks and libertarian ideologues who seem to put out a lot of denialist and other anti-environmentalist garbage. It was also former home of Caroline Crocker, an IDiot that they kicked out. Anyone know what's up with these guys? Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 02:31, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Heavily funded by the Koch brothers - David Gerard (talk) 11:08, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Srsly? Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 21:19, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

fnordBlue (is useful) 22:57, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

The Kochs are responsible for the Austrians in the Econ dept. Not sure of the rest, except that makes it reasonably clear that GMU are up for sale - David Gerard (talk) 19:53, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Raelians Launch a "God is a Myth" Campaign

http://www.examiner.com/rationalism-in-national/raelians-join-the-battle-of-billboards The irony meter is broken beyond repair.Ryantherebel (talk) 14:23, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

"The Raelians have dared to say what most atheist groups across America have only hinted at: God is a myth." Er...hinted at? I'm pretty sure "There's probably no God" is a little more than a hint. Tetronian ^{you're clueless} 17:27, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I wonder if tons of people are going to show up at atheist organizations asking "So, where's the orgy?" Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 02:17, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

That's always my first question.--MikeD (talk) 00:33, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Brains needed

Anyone here keep a marine fish tank or are a marine biologist? I'm trying to start a small scientific / skeptical community for issues surrounding marine aquatics because I'm a little fed up with all the bollocks thrown around in the forums on the topic. Also, if you dare try to start a scientific discussion on one of those forums you instantly get a load of dipshits throwing anecdotal evidence at you and then screaming about how you use too much scientific jargon. Crundy^{Talk nerdy to me} 14:54, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

My son's a marine biologist. But he only has a terrarium, strangely enough. Ajkgordon (talk) 17:50, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

maybe he's doesn't want marine biology 24/7. I knew a chef who only made beans on toast at home because he was fed up cooking all day. Totnesmartin (talk) 17:31, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I remember when the Michelin-starred chefs Albert & Michel Roux were on Desert Island Discs. Sue Lawley asked them what were their favourite dishes, one said egg and chips the other his mother's pot au feu.  Lily ^{Inspirate me.} 22:07, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

My dying cat -- an update.

I'm doing much better, thanks.

Many thanks to all of you who took the time to respond to my post about my sick kitty last week. If this were CP, the best I could have hoped for was nothing besides maybe a "we're praying for your cat" platitude, nothing even close to the really thoughtful replies that came from the mob. So I got home from NY on Saturday night and Mrs. Foster said that Coyote was in really rough shape, peeing everywhere, totally lethargic, yowling in pain when she picked him up. Usually when I go away, he goes crazy when I come home -- purring, jumping into my arms, so happy to see me -- this time, he hissed at me. Okay, he's in bad shape. Teary-eyed, we packed him into his crate and went to the animal hospital (not our usual vet, as he was closed). The vet checked him out. Long story short, yes, he has a heart problem and will probably live a shorter life. But, more to the point, he had a pretty routine urinary tract/bladder infection, something my regular vet (whom I will never deal with again) totally missed. A couple of days of antibiotics later, That Coyote is already pretty much back to his regular self, and I am greatly relieved. P-Foster (talk) 19:18, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Good! 19:44, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I still wish death upon you and your immediate family, but I am very glad to hear that your cat is feeling better. Occasionaluse (talk) 19:22, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

When the time comes, as it comes to all, if you still live somewhere near the trapezoid bone of the mitten, Herb David's might be one place to look for one of those fiddle cases that were popular in the early 20th century, the plain wooden ones called "cat coffins." In the meantime, that's one stressor fewer in this dreary season. Huzzah. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 19:46, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Good news! And it goes to show that it really pays to ask around and check with others about how good a vet is before you see them.-- ^{Spirit of the Cherry Blossom} 20:08, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Great to hear that. I'm trying to work with veterinary hospice and palliative care here, but it's much better to know your cat isn't in need of it. Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 20:27, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I dread the day I lose my fantastic fuzzy friend Tintin, and so I congraulate you on retaining the services of your own bundle of curiousity. DogP (talk) 22:02, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Glad to hear kitteh is feeling better. I trust you are lavishing treats upon him? Crundy^{Talk nerdy to me} 22:05, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Fantastic news, and at least you've discovered your vet's incompetence at a time when the illness isn't life-threatening FairyCupcake (talk) 23:46, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm still anxious. Give Coyote some tuna juice for me. User:Nutty Roux/sigtalk 01:55, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, all. @ Crundy -- he's on meds for another 10 days, which means peanut-butter encoated pills 2x a day. Treats indeed. @ Nutty. Tuna juice gives Coyotes the shits. But lots of crunchy treats abound. And peanut butter. P-Foster (talk) 02:07, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Good to hear about the cat. It's always sad when our furry friends get sick and need to be put down. I'm glad that it didn't come to that in this case. Lord of the Goons ^{The official spikey-haired skeptical punk} 02:23, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Cutest kittie! Love the new caption on the photo, brought a smile to my face ("I'm doing much better, thanks") - I didn't comment on the original post because I just didn't have any helpful advice, but was really hoping that things would turn out ok. And how wonderful that they did. Now I have advice: just like people with urinary tract infections, more fluids is helpful - especially if giving crunchy treats - like maybe some soup broth or wet (canned) cat food? This will also help him to avoid another common problem of older male cats - kidney stones. Refugee^{talk page} 06:12, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I think your vet might have been ripping you off. It's a bad economy, your vet might have needed $500... Glad that your cat is ok. I take it the vets office being closed saved your cats life. Senator Harrison (talk) 13:33, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

bad economy for who? My local vet just moved to premises twice as big. Totnesmartin (talk) 17:29, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Eh, a vet I used to go to was recommending all this expensive BS surgery for my cat because he was constantly getting UTIs. Then another vet just told me to get a different cat food. It worked. Senator Harrison (talk) 22:17, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

oh noes!

I spilled my drink all over my Macbook last night and the folks over at Apple said that my logic board was borked. It costs almost as much to replace it as I paid for the damn computer itself. I asked them if I could take it out and hang it on a clothesline to dry then put it back. They said "no." Anybody got any advice? I need a geek...PACODOG^{woof, bitches} 01:52, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

My advice is simple: get a windows system. They are sooo much better than Macbooks. The Goonie Punk ^{Can't sleep, clowns will eat me!} 02:24, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Then wipe it and install Linux. Тy^Talk. 02:26, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Which one is spill-proof?

PACODOG^{woof, bitches} 02:31, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

You'll have to pay for a spill-guard for that. Radioactive afikomen ^{Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments.} 02:36, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I've spilt stuff on, and dropped my lappie many a time. Works like a charm. Dell XPS M1330. Тy^Talk. 02:39, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Why? So his wifi can not work? Radioactive afikomen ^{Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments.} 02:29, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I've never had a problem with Linux and wifi, do you? Тy^Talk. 02:29, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't run Linux, but I have friends who do. Radioactive afikomen ^{Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments.} 02:36, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I've heard people whine about WIfi drivers. But I oddly don't have a problem, mostly because I check to see what hardware is supported :) Тy^Talk. 02:39, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Stop fucking spilling stuff. Ace ^{of Spades} 02:40, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Yah, but with something like a laptop, people already have to make numerous compromises (weighing price, aesthetics, build quality, type and number of ports, weight, size, screen resolution, keyboard size and layout, not to mention the countless variants on internal hardware). Hardware compatibility in laptops is supposed to be a solved problem; you shouldn't have to worry about. Radioactive afikomen ^{Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments.} 03:01, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

As in installing Linux over Windows. And it is pretty much solved, Dell and HP work right out the box. Тy^Talk. 03:04, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Exactly, the software that comes with the laptop usually works. It's when you decide to change the OS that you come up against compatability/driver issues. Silly twit (talk) 03:09, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Ahem. A similar skin has kept my MacBookPro4,1 in tiptop shape. It'll go obsolete before I manage to destroy it by spilling booze on it, which happens weekly. Also, you can look around online for salvage parts from a Mac repairer. I had to replace the keyboard (from wear) and got one for like $40. Logic boards for pre-unibody Macbooks are less than $500. User:Nutty Roux/sigtalk 03:19, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

seriously, tho

Does anyone know if I can have the logic board repaired without having to replace it? I kinda need this 'puter and I ain't got no money for a new one: PACODOG^{woof, bitches} 02:46, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

From my days in tech support, we were told that Apple doesn't sell spare parts that often, and they charge exorbitant amounts, and just recommend purchase of another computer. Hell, just tinkering with the insides of one will void the warranty. I'm sorry. Тy^Talk. 02:49, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

(EC)It is probably too late now. If you spill any liquids on portable computing electronics you need to get the power off immediately unless it is ruggedized. You can clean electronics with appropriate solvents or clean water so long as there is no power, you then need to dry on a gentle heat until all remnants of water are removed. If you spilled something and it has shorted some circuits then it is probably fried. Evidently your logic board has been zapped. I'm afraid that's a downside of Macs, fancy design but you are tied to one expensive hardware vendor when compared to the PC world. Modern circuit boards and surface mounted components are generally not repairable and if they were, then it would only be Apple who could do it. Sorry. Silly twit (talk) 03:03, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

What the twit said. It's fried, and there's so many things on the board, just finding out where it's fried would be several weeks worth of work, and almost nothing is user replaceable. The only real option for fixing it yourself is to try and find another more or less identical laptop that has something else wrong with it and swap the motherboards out. People do sell laptops for spares and repairs on ebay, though I admit it's a long shot. The motherboard going kaput is the leading cause of laptop failure.

Also, check if your home insurance has accidental damage cover. If so, that's an option for getting a more or less free replacement. --JeevesMkII ^{The gentleman's gentleman at the other site} 04:52, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Got to say that insurance sounds like the best bet. Doing a google search on "macbook motherboards" seems to turn up some possibilities - some very expensive some not so. Are you into a bit of homefixing? (Not that I've tried anything with a Mac - for all I know its in a sealed plastic case.) And who cares about the warranty? It's bust anyway. --Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 06:52, 8 March 2011 (UTC)