RationalWiki talk:Discord

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Demcord edits[edit]

Can someone fill me in why the edit by Idkidks was reverted and then the page was protected? What's going on with the IPs earlier editing this page? --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 20:02, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

people from one demcord server are attempting to remove the link or vilify the other demcord because they hate the server owner and some staff. EK (talk) 21:13, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
The person in question isn't part of the IP brigade. Idkidks got permission from the RationalWiki Discord, while @GrammarCommie dropped the protectionagreeing with Idkidks, to make the edits. I assume GrammarCommie didn't remember Idkidks from the conversation earlier. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 21:24, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
I will allow their changes to the demcord link as a compromise I guess, but you aren't editing the description of new demcord (which I mod) as proposed because the proposed changes are a blatant attempt to make it look bad. EK (talk) 21:28, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
I'm not sure what part is just to make the server look bad. It's documented that the new server was created partially because the owner didn't like the strict moderation on ableist remarks (particularly use of "retarded"). After they created the new server, they proceeded to freely use "retard" as well allowing a few other people (also there's documented use of "autistic" as an insult and other epithets toward people with mental illnesses), hence the "lax on ableism" comment. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 21:48, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
out of context comments from months ago are not evidence. EK (talk) 21:58, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
Out of context? Then what's (screenshots)? This is all from the server owner. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 22:08, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
I'm not seeing the rword thing, nor any evidence the server was created to have lesser standards, and those comments are primarily literal, referring to things which are literally autistic. I don't see the problem. EK (talk) 22:30, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
While I don't think "being freely to use "retarded" is a primary reason the server has been created, it seems important for the server owner to mention that people are allowed to say "retarded". Also, the enforcement beyond that initial post is spotty, as I've seen it used to demean anyone. I don't know but I still don't see justification for this), and they allow a user named "Clibtard Mario". As for the latter "literally autistic" defense, I have no idea how a picture can be "literally autistic" especially if it's apparently shared for cringe reactions and there's a responding comment that uses the phrase "mentally ill spastic". --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 22:48, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
the person who said "mentally ill spastic" was Juve, who was literally banned like 3 hours later for his behaviour. I don't see the issue. EK (talk) 23:27, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
I see that it has been appropriately handled, which is great and proved me wrong, but I still doubt your defense of the use of "autistic" as an insult. The only justification is that they're old posts and perhaps users don't do this any more, which is very plausible. As for the "retard" and "mentally ill" as insults, I'm still in doubt about categorizing the server as "ableism" rather than insults but I also understand there are other users that are put off from them. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 00:14, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
why not just remove both links to get the drama over with - 4/23/2020, 23:41 UTC
That's also... consideration. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 00:14, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

New guild?[edit]

Seems like there's a new guild being linked in the sidebar that is different from the one on this page and the one that up until this point is/was the rationalwiki main guild and is still referred to as such on this page? New invite seems to be this one, which leads to a guild called "RatWiki Support Chat" rather than what it was before. Can someone fill me in on if I've missed any discussion or votes on this matter? (I checked the Saloon bar and the Mod noticeboard). The Crow (talk) 21:51, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

that's existed for over a year, its a guild specifically for ratwiki content and technical support, mostly technical tbh. It does not have an independent community it's purely site related. EK (talk) 21:56, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
Ah, I understand. Would you mind adding it to this Project page? I think it's telling that it only has 22 users (at the time of writing) and at least I was not aware of it's existence until these modifications were done to the sidebar, since it's not linked on this page. Maybe put it directly under the community discord or something? The Crow (talk) 22:02, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
The guild owned by FCP has very limited connection with site affairs now, I didn't think it relevant plus it's confusing for people. If you two like I can put both in there easily enough. Let me know and I'll check back later (I'll probably add it). — Dysk (contribs) 22:06, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
Honestly, I couldn't tell you either way on this (not all that involved with the original to say much on that subject matter). I wouldn't object to replacing it, if it's as disconnected as you say it is, but I imagine there's people beyond me who have relevant opinions on that who are more involved with that Discord and the new one. Otherwise, both seems fine to me (or just shift the original to the other guilds section if it's gonna be replaced, since I suppose it's stil to some extent RW adjacent?) The Crow (talk) 22:11, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
Yeah I'll go with that. Sounds about right to me. — Dysk (contribs) 22:25, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

The other server is far-left oriented[edit]

@The Crow Both co-owners are far-left. Most mods are far-left. They routinely ban people for not being far-left. I don't think I was misrepresenting them. — Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 14:29, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Weird then that @RWRW continues to reside there. The server is left-wing, not "far left." Oxyaena Harass 16:02, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
The moderation of the guild from my experience with it is not "far-left". I don't count as someone who is "far-left" (as talkpage arguments I've had would definetly indicate), I've argued with people you would probably deem "far-left" in there and the moment they steeped to personal attacks on me, the people that were "far-left" got warned by staff. To me that would indicate that the guild is not "far-left", even if the staff holds far-left beliefs (which I would consider irrelevant if the moderation of the guild isn't far-left). Even so, the moniker seems a bit odd given how we don't have that kind of moniker for the support chat. Both serve a different purpose imho. The support chat is mainly focused on the wiki, whereas the more general guild is less focused on the wiki from what I can see. It's a nice ditchonomy and it helps to be clear what the main focus is of each guild. Techpriest (I am Alpharius! / Pencil.png / Tux icon.png / Shield.png) 18:29, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
Most likely the main reason I’m still there is I almost never say anything. There’s probably a few people there who’d like to see me get banned, and maybe some that don’t. I’d say the server is left wing, but it definitely has strong elements of the far-left (and I suspect a lot of people there wouldn’t deny it). Either way it’s certainly a lot further left than the wiki. --RWRW (talk) 23:08, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
It seems quite farleft to me, but labeling it as such comes off as trying to start a fight. I added a more neutral disclaimer--Hastur! (talk) 23:22, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Another server-server discussion[edit]

I'm not satisfactory of how the servers are ordered nor am I for the description for the first one. The first description deems the server as "not necessarily affiliated with RationalWiki" which can bother and divide active users on that channel who they think are part of our project of debunking pseudoscience and opposing authoritarianism but don't necessarily edit the wiki. I do see the Discord server as an extension of the wiki project and people that participate in that server but not on the wiki itself, I still see them as RationalWiki community members, and I do not want to risk having them feel excluded. Have the description just be "general server". I also think it should be ordered first due to seniority and by its sheer size. If you think it doesn't have as many familiar editors as you expect (which is true), then that's Support Chat's job to say "more focused on the wiki project". That being said, there are active editors on both, active editors on just Support, active editors on just the general servers. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 21:17, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Nobody is excluded. Everybody can edit RationalWiki. I am the one that added not necessarily affiliated with RationalWiki as some sort of distinction was necessary (and it was better than the "far-left" snarl another editor thought would be more appropriate). The culture of the other server is quite different from RationalWiki and its important that newcomers not think the other server is indicative of who we are--Hastur! (talk) 21:23, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
That might not be your intent but saying it's not "necessarily affiliated" gives it an air of exclusion. I think the server is an extension of us, so yes, I think newcomers should think that; while it's an independent community with its own rules and users that doesn't ban users solely based on their wiki activity but just on activity on their servers (for instance), it's still part of the RationalWiki project and I think it is part of who we are and I don't want to try to instill a division or resentment from the feeling of exclusion. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 21:27, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
How about general server, independent of RationalWiki although some editors do post there--Hastur! (talk) 21:29, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
When I first added changed the page to include both links I just called it a 'general server' ([1]). But the idea of it not really being affiliated is entirely accurate. The Mods on the Support Chat are the same as the Mods from the Wiki and follows roughly the same rules as the Wiki - same cannot be said for RatCord. As for "bothering and dividing people" all I will say is people on RatCord have repeatedly bad mouthed the Support Chat server (including calling it 'bargain-bin RatCord' and calling for the invite link to be scrubbed from the Wiki). Meanwhile on the Support Chat server we have rules that tell people not to go and bad mouth RatCord. But I would support Hastur's suggestion. --RWRW (talk) 21:31, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
I'd just call the first one "general server" and the second one "server with more wiki focus". As for the bad-mouthing, I've been partaking an effort to stop bad-mouthing Support Chat. At the time, the Support Chat had a rocky history but I told them it was under new management under Dysk and I'm in charge. I made it explicit in Support Chat that we do not badmouth RatCord nor should Support Chat be used as a server for banned users from RatCord to vent about RatCord. I do expect RatCord to act vice-versa, which is also said in the rules, but I can't enforce this but I do believe in them. Also the characterization of "not really being affiliated" is not "entirely accurate". It is accurate to an extent, but only to an extent; I point some users are active exclusively or dominantly on RatCord, some users are more active on SupportChat, and some users are active on both (which I am). The proportion of familiar users on Support Chat is higher but there's still cooperation from RatChat and I don't see the point in trying to measure one or the other as being "more appropriate" or not. It's not some contest. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 21:42, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
As it is, it avoids confusion. People go to the support chat if they have wiki-related concerns. They may explore ratcord if they so please, with the knowledge that the experience may well be different from what they encounter on RationalWiki proper--Hastur! (talk) 21:45, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
Support Chat, by nature of being a Discord server (rapid fire instant messages, heavier consequences from moderation such as destructive message deletion, ability to create hidden channels), will also have a different "culture" from the Saloon Bar here. In fact, it DOES have a different feel. Support Chat also has a separate culture from RatCord too and that's noticeable. It doesn't make it more or less "valid" RationalWiki community. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 22:41, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
The Support Chat is faster but the feel is much closer and the user base is far, far more in sync with the wiki. Why did you even bring this up, anyways? Seems like pointless drama--Hastur! (talk) 22:57, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
It's on behalf of other users that feel uncomfortable about the exclusion here? It's not "pointless drama", it's an effort to try to unite a community rather than divide. I think it's worth bringing up even if it seems minor. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 22:58, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
Okay... but what exclusion? Neither RationalWiki nor its Discord is excluding anybody. Have people from ratcord been excluded from RationalWiki or the Support Chat? This has not happened, to my knowledge--Hastur! (talk) 23:00, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
Wow, main Discord is badmouthing Support Discord? Fuck them! Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 22:08, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
A lot of them don't know that you made a second iteration that isn't like the first one (the first one is a lot more...rocky given the management). I've explained to them and they're pretty receptive. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 22:30, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Raven's proposal[edit]

Note: These servers coexist and there is no competition between them; they just have different server cultures and moderation styles. One is not to be used to complain about the other.
  • RationalWiki Support Chat — Support server, more focused on wiki-related issues (server moderation team is the same from the wiki's)
  • RationalWiki Discord — General server, less focused on wiki-related issues (server moderation team is different from the wiki's)

Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 02:41, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Better, yeah. I just want to list RatCord first though since it's older and has a bigger population. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 02:45, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Raven's proposal is good. Debating which one gets listed on the page first is such a pointless thing to worry about. --RWRW (talk) 02:52, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Fun fact: I was kicked from ratcord for making fun of furries--Hastur! (talk) 02:53, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Fwiw, if the other chat is still used to mock or attack the support chat, then I would support unlinking it. We in the support chat have consistently refrained from attacking the other server, so it isn't crazy for me to expect reciprocity. — Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 03:23, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
@Hastur Now Hastur, don't make me prove you a liar... ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 03:28, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 :/--Hastur! (talk) 03:29, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
And Raven, some evidence for that claim would be nice. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 03:30, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
"Server moderation team is the same from the wiki's"? I don't like that idea. I'm happy to be a moderator here. I'm not the least bit fucking interested in that Discord shite. Spud (talk) 03:42, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
No obligations. The support chat merely has the same hierarchy. The role is fulfilled anyways--Hastur! (talk) 03:48, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
@Spud I added a hint note: "Actually, not all moderators from the wiki use Discord, but the hierarchy is the same as the wiki's". Is this better for you? — Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 04:32, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Yes, that's better. Spud (talk) 09:45, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

The "ratdiscord"[edit]

As someone who tried to mediate the conflict whether the "ratcord" discord server should stay on the sidebar (see above section), I am no longer convinced this is a healthy relationship.

  • The "ratcord" is inhabited by a large userbase who doesn't edit the wiki nor cares about the wiki. The link exists here only to suck off activity and potential editors to the discord. In fact, the admins and mods of the "ratcord" brag about not editing the wiki.
  • The "ratcord" has been a source of a lot of canvassing, where users from the wiki ask others to participate on the mod noticeboard and chicken coop.
  • There was an agreement that there wouldn't be interserver conflicts (between "ratcord" and the support chat). This is officially codified in the rules of both. Yet, very recently "ratcord" mods have posted memes attacking the other server. I said this back then[2] and I will stay consistent: the "ratcord" has not respected this rule and I don't think it will change anytime soon.

I ask the wiki editobase whether they really want to be connected to a discord server that has nothing to do with the wiki other than instigating conflict and rooting activity. — Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 17:34, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

I personally don't think it's worth caring about. Removing ratcord from this page will gain us little, but will definitely cause drama--Hastur! (talk) 17:41, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
I feel like this is another attempt to start drama. Vorarchivist (talk) 17:54, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
I’m given to understand that the matter was settled and no action is necessary. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 18:06, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
Sure. Just wanted to keep my word when I said it back in the beginning of August,[3] when I actually tried to solve the drama problem that existed. Which, of course, nobody gives a shit if I try to help. — Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 18:21, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
...you tried to mediate? I remember you being the one who tried to call the guild far-left. You were not involved with the conflict within regards to that page and don't pretend to be. Anyone who doesn't believe me, well the archives are right there. In any case, yes the Discord should stay. Accusations of canvassing are ungrounded, please post actual evidence of canvassing (aka solliciting for votes in a certain direction). Merely talking isn't canvassing, there has to be an active push to it. "Memes attacking the other server"... what? I have been monitoring the way the Support Chat is talked about in that guild, and the worst it gets is people questioning why (and the answer is "it has a structure more tightly following the wiki, when it comes to mods"). There have been no interserver conflicts beyond one or two banned users trying to appeal in Support Chat for Ratcord, which usually gets handled swiftly, typically by Ratcord mods who are in the Support Chat. There is no hostile relationship between Ratcord or the Support Chat, not anymore anyway. We've come to an amicable agreement on the existence of the two servers. You're just trying to kick up drama. Techpriest (I am Alpharius! / Pencil.png / Tux icon.png / Shield.png) 20:47, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
Subject already solved. Nobody cares. — Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 20:48, 5 September 2020 (UTC)