RationalWiki:Chicken coop/Archive98

HBC again

I'm reopening an earlier case against User:Helena Bonham Carter, see here. To summarize, the user has been suspended for escalation of conflicts and general toxicity. The decision on the earlier case was made in expectation that HBC will improve their behavior after. However, I have not seen any improvement after the ban 1, 2 (this one is egregious for telling me to "fuck yourself" after I attempted to engage). I provided additional comment for my vote earlier here though I have suspected the user will continue their behavior. I want to actually enforce accountability for their constantly disruptive comments.

The other comments in Saloon Bar are disruptive and inflammatory and involve a similar subject related to the 2020 primaries, don't get me wrong, though Helena Bonham Carter is already on probation for prior remarks. Instances involving ikanreed and Oxyaena should be dealt separately, though Helena Bonham Carter has been more problematic overall especially for not having much edits in mainspace.

So, I'm planning on reinstating a vote on another, longer suspension but also this one comes with more suspensions (related to the same disruptive behavior documented here extensively) that don't require a coop, after the suspension has expired. For instance, an inflammatory remark can be grounds for temp ban for 3 days after the initial long suspension has expired. An indef ban is also another choice though I feel that is a bridge too far for now. I just want to see suspensions having an actual effect plus my goal is to have the user think twice before flaming others. --It's-a me, 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄 21:11, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

It has long been held that the Mod position exists to break up fights and reduce drama. That a user is actively fighting against such basic and productive standards should be a concern for all users. In other words, HBC is being a toxic jackass and won't stop when politely asked by Mods who exist to break up this exact problem. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 21:19, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

At least ikanreed and Oxyaena have been receptive to my comments. HBC has been constantly combative to me, and that's the big difference. --It's-a me, 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄 21:24, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

All HBC needs is a topic ban on the democratic primaries for a while. Just ban HBC from posts relating to the democratic primaries and if it isn't reprected HBC can be blocked for a while. ShabiDOO 07:53, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

there is nothing particularly wrong with the two comments linked above, especially in the context of the threads they appeared in. perhaps topic ban would be applicable, but not just for hbc AMassiveGay (talk) 13:43, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

HBC's comments are among the least offensive of what went down in the saloon, but I don't care if HBC gets another block due to HBC's long-term non-productiveness in mainspace. Bongolian (talk) 17:55, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘I've read through the entire Saloon bar#Fuck... section. There are only two statements that I would consider actionably offensive (inflammatory ad hominem attacks), both by ikanreed against Duce:

• "@DuceMoosolini God a what a trashy loser."
• "'You don't have principles' says the pro-rape shithead."

Bongolian (talk) 18:16, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

LMG, are sure ikanreed is more receptive to your comments? He is more polite to you when you appear and may back down from a thread when mods are watching him but he never actually changes his behavior as others here have pointed out and he knows you have some sympathy for him and does not want to burn that bridge when public opinion is turning on him. That more implies self preservation than a willingness to consider if something is wrong with his behavior. If we want him to change his behavior to make election discussions on the saloon less toxic it is a foregone conclusion that is a lost cause.-Flandres (talk) 21:11, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

@Flandres Good point. I do admit I'm afraid of receiving verbal abuse myself. I'm sorry, I have to let out a vulnerability, but I have to be honest. But do you have any suggestions to help me improve? I also don't like seeing Bongolian, Duce, you, Shabidoo, and others (I'm really sorry for not remembering your names) receiving hurtful comments either and scaring them off makes me super concerned. I'm not sure if it's wholly accurate to say I'm concerned more about self-preservation than bad behavior but I have to admit that's a vulnerability I have. --It's-a me, 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄 21:27, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

However you might be describing his behavior than mine. I'm not sure. I first read it as me just wanting to keep good terms with someone just so I won't receive insults, BUT I'm also reading it as him never reevaluating himself and trying to be polite to me for his self-preservation. Is this criticism of my behavior, his behavior, both? --It's-a me, 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄 21:30, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Oh, I was implying ikanreed was pretending to be nice to mods for self preservation(you know, not getting banned), not you. You are just trying to avoid taking sides and not make this worse, which is a valid course of action. I would just caution you about trying to be non partisan when battle lines are so clearly drawn up and war is essentially inevitable. I actually think you are the best mod on this site. Also, I shy away from offering complete solutions, because I know my voice carries little weight and I am not held in high regard by popular opinion.Flandres (talk) 21:35, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the reassurance, it really means a whole lot to me. And no, there's no harm in offering any solutions especially if they're thought out and made in good intention. Worst I'd do is just disagree. Shabidoo offered something, got voted down but it's not personal, and it's still something. By the way I dunno if I'm trying to be nonpartisan. I'm still a Bernie supporter and I don't make it a secret I strongly dislike Biden and wish I can communicate my disdain but both decisions, voting Biden or not, will hurt people either way. It's tough. --It's-a me, 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄 21:47, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

I was more referring to taking an even hand to both belligerents in your capacity as mod but when you put it that way your position makes more sense.-Flandres (talk) 21:55, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Ikanreed, Oxyaena

Ikanreed behaves much worse and you’ve said nothing to him. I won’t vote for any proposal like this until you at least try to make him dial back his bad behavior. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 22:35, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Towards me, he's generally more respectful and more aware of his behavior. That being said, though, he does flame far worse (I still remember the entire conversation that led to your resignation, which wasn't handled well at all) and more often toward others I also have to take a stand against his behavior too. Too often, he's an instigator of conflict and was behind drama that led to your resignation, but also led to several collapsed< unproductive discussions. He also should be held accountable for overly aggressive behavior and I'd like to see an apology. He never has apologized, taken back the vitrol, which I've constantly noticed. Apology or not, however, I think some sort of probation should be applied for the same goal, to try to make him put more care and thought in his posts. He should try practicing deescalation, which I haven't seen at all What's your idea? A temp ban with similar probation status as how HBC has one is one. However I need to bring up how you went on a tirade against him and also sweeping characterized Bernie supporters as "Bernie Bros.". If you need to help me build your case, you too have to try to deescalate. Don't say things like "You don't actually have any principles or values. You wouldn't have voted for anyone even if it was Bernie who got nominated. No, all you want to do is bully people on the internet and use fake leftism to pretend like you have some kind of moral high ground. That's why you don't do anything here but insult people. You don't believe in the wiki's mission. You're just here to hurt people, because that's all you really care about.", that's never going to end well. --It's-a me, 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄 22:50, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

I took a break from the saloon for a month literally because of Ikranreed saying revolting offensive toxic garbage re: the democratic primaries and a month later, it seems, he's still doing it only far far far worse. Topic ban Ikranreed for a few weeks (I don't think Oxayena should be included here as she seems to have been a sporadic cheerleader rather than instigator). And while we are at it could we PLEASE put 2020 election stuff in a separate temporary saloon? It would be a smashing idea. Seriously ShabiDOO 07:53, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Ikanreed speaks truth to power. His only "problem" is that he's blunt. — Oxyaena ^Harass 10:36, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

It's certainly true that Ikanreed and Oxy have been more inflammatory than HBC. That's not to say I support sanctions against those two, I just think blaming HBC is out of proportion. I've been expecting this to happen for a while now, I wasn't around for the 2016 election but I'm told there was problems then. @RoninMacbeth predicted that there would be election-related HCM issues over a year ago. Maybe Shabidoo's suggestion of a separate election bar should be looked at, at the very least it would stop others from being dragged in. --RWRW (talk) 13:13, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

'speaks truth to power' this is a wiki. get over yourself AMassiveGay (talk) 13:37, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

I think there's speaking the truth to the power, and just being extremely rude just for the sake of it. It's been said that people who are brutally honest are doing it for the brutality than the honesty, and while sometimes I do like ikanreed's provocative posts towards users who post in bad faith, I'm not a fan of him riling up others that he disagrees with, and it looks impossible to have a civil debate if you vote for a candidate he disagrees with. БaбyЛuigiOнФire🚓^(T|C) 18:36, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Fair enough, LGM. I'll endeavor to better control my own behavior and try not to rise to ikanreed's provocations. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 16:29, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Sure thing. Please try to catch yourself angrily typing at the very least. It's so tempting to get a response quickly. --It's-a me, 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄 20:15, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

I find myself doing that, go walk my dog, spend some time with my family, take a bike ride, come back, and still feel all the same level of pissed off at the kinds of shit people are saying. Not to drag the content of the dispute itself here, but I still can't get over the post about "has a lot of catching up to do on rapes" and the reply that they feel fine about it. Makes me feel such deep contempt for the kind of person who'd do that. It's just words, but the ideas behind that kind of words... How can I ever interact with a person like that again and not remember those words? ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 20:29, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

I think you're referring to the Tweet in clogs? But you need to be aware that that's from an entirely different person, and Duce and other Biden voters can still disagree on voting or not for the general election while still agreeing that the tweet is disgusting. Biden's personal qualities are repugnant but people place higher stakes in getting a decent Supreme Court and simply stopping Trump doing his job rather than Biden's abusive relationships. I respect both decisions to vote Biden or abstain. It's not our fault we have such a tough decision, it's a problem with messaging in the left wing while we're up against people and grifters that let themselves get swallowed by a cult of personality. --It's-a me, 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄 20:38, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

If it's a tweet, someone posted the same sentiment to the bar without a hint of irony. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 23:22, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

@Ikanreed Oh goodness, yeah, @Summa Atheologica referred to that tweet that I posted in clogs without a sense of irony. I see your position there now. Out of all things to diminish when it comes to Biden versus Trump, rape count is NOT one of them. Still, don't label them as rape apologists or supporters. It's still more accurate to say making the comparison is absolutely tasteless and hurtful at best. How I would've responded, it would be "That's a terrible tweet to refer to if you want to defend your position! It's absolutely tasteless to measure people on how many rapes they have done." But the Biden voters, those that are stuck with him, I see why they'd make that remark, as terrible as it is, because they think twenty is worse than one (and they believe they're stuck in that spot to decide between twenty and one). Trump is more symbolic of a culture of rapists than Biden, by being a figurehead and symbol of acceptance of sexual harassment. I don't think Biden winning will inspire misogynists the same way Trump definitely has, so I guess that's where the mindset comes from. Again, I don't like the mindset at all, we shouldn't have rapists at all and they shouldn't be rewarded with any degree of power, but I wouldn't call the people behind the mindset as evil or wanting to hurt people as you insinuate. It's just really insensitive, hurtful privilege. --It's-a me, 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄 01:03, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

The big problem with the Joe Biden / Tara Reade story is that it's pretty early to draw any definitive conclusions, IMHO. Tara Reade has been too inconsistent so far for me to get a good read. So labeling Joe Biden as a "rapist" is IMHO premature... not everyone is truthful, and believing her might mean that there's a risk of looking like Nancy Grace after the Duke LaCrosse humdinger. Joe Biden has always been a "touchy feely" sort of politician, this is without question and confirmed by multiple people that occasionally it got to uncomfortable, creepy levels (this was Tara Reade's stance prior to recently). "Touchy feely" however is not "rapist" and it remains to be seen IMHO whether the charge is credible. If it's just "touchy feely", while an issue, that is far less problematic than Trump's well documented sexual misconduct. Soundwave106 (talk) 02:03, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

I see. But do you grant her benefit of doubt? I would, as I did for the Kavanaugh thing. Though I recall there has been past drama involving YouTubers (ProJared, Stryder7X) where I also granted benefit of doubt those that stood up for themselves, so I'm careful also with accusations. --It's-a me, 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄 02:09, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Not for criminal conduct accusations; I follow the general line of "innocent until proven guilty". Having said that, I'm also not going to definitively call her a liar either -- we will let the case play out to decide that. If her story holds up IMHO there stands good credible reason for the DNC to replace him with someone else. But I don't know if it will or not. Soundwave106 (talk) 02:28, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Stop discussing the content of the dispute here or you'll get my opinion. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 02:56, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

I'll give you my opinion here on what is relevant. Bernie Sanders supporters have a toxic online reputation. IMHO it's only a small portion of the Sanders vote, but it's real enough to be a big negative for Sanders and actually probably pushes some people towards the other side. The more you stir up things with "pro-rape shithead" talk and all of that regarding a Biden voter, the more you reinforce the "Bernie Bro" stereotype. If that's what you want, fine, but you're actually damaging your cause when you behave this way, whether you know it or not. Soundwave106 (talk) 03:51, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

There is no good reason to continue with this discussion. It is Likely that we will have to put up with the likes of old Joe Biden intimidating accessible women for the next four years. Sanders has endorsed him. He will not be replaced and he will most likely win election. Let us hope that the far-reaching influence of political argument in our saloon has not been weakened by the vigorous chatter.Ariel31459 (talk) 03:16, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

While the reputation is there, I am highly skeptical it's founded in reality and just not a narrative to tar Bernie supporters. You can say it's an unfair stereotype, a perception that exists, but the remark should be qualified. "Bernie supporters have a toxic reputation whether that's accurate / unique to their base". Something like that. Though you've done it, but maybe advice to others.

Fair enough Ariel. Though sentiment remains and arguments will flare after 2020 election. --It's-a me, 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄 19:22, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

The worst part will be when the topic ban goes through and I'm denied my rightful "told you so". ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 19:25, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

You'll have to blame yourself for not holding your tongue. --It's-a me, 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄 21:11, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Ikanreed says, It's just words, but the ideas behind that kind of words... How can I ever interact with a person like that again and not remember those words? Just imagine yourself the victim of lying words sworn out to a FISA judge by the Obama administration, and all the lies of fake news media based on those words. Makes me feel such deep contempt for the kind of person who'd do that. As Jesus said, turn the other cheek. nobs^{Free Roger Stone!} 06:20, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Missing an important point here

Duce starts shit then complains. Can't put a lid on his condescension for ten seconds then runs away crying when someone calls him on it. Go re-read the bar and tell me I'm the overall more toxic one or starting any of this. Go on. Read the chains from the begining see who's responding to what how. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 15:06, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

ikanreed, You called Duce a "pro-rape shithead". I don't see how that was warranted. It's not official policy here, but could you at least make some effort to be civil? If you think your being condescended to, don't react with offensive name-calling. Bongolian (talk) 17:50, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

I do want to point out that while we don't seem to have a concrete policy that I can find on not being offensive, one of our medium block reasons (up to a month) is "Excessively offensive comments". The Crow (talk) 17:53, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Context. What was I replying to? It wasn't some sunshine and rainbows pro-biden post. He accused me of wanting to kill peoples. That's quite aside from the factual accuracy of the statement. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 20:10, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

No offense but you're resorting to "he started". If he's being inflammatory, you don't have to say even stronger words back. --It's-a me, 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄 20:12, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm resorting to it because he is running to the mods. Again and again, he posts provocative bullshit then reacts like a little goddamn baby when he gets pushback, whether it's running away or crying for the mods. "Trashy loser" is how I described it earlier. Still seems accurate. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 20:18, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

I disagree that "trashy loser" is accurate. He acknowledged that he could've done better than to continue or start insulting you. But you need to do your part too. Just because someone gets angrily easily doesn't mean you should goad them. You know how they'll react. I just don't see how insulting them leads to any other reaction or how it's conductive to discussion. People tend to not like flame wars, or at least that's what I think because I don't like flame wars. --It's-a me, 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄 20:38, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Fine. You can drag me kicking and screaming by making basically sound points like that. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 21:27, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

A fresh perspective

We all needed a fresh perspective on this, so I brought some outside help.... — Oxyaena ^Harass 10:30, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Which one of you fellers is the real Dirty Dan? --It's-a me, 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄 20:17, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Vote

Creating temporary United States Election 2020 saloon

For

1. An enthusiastic for. I'll help put whatever work in necessary to implement. ShabiDOO 15:42, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Against

1. No. Cosmikdebris (talk) 16:00, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
2. A terrible bother and waste of space that will do nothin g to solve the underlying issues.𝔖𝔲𝔪𝔪𝔞 𝔄𝔱𝔥𝔢𝔬𝔩𝔬𝔤𝔦𝔠𝔞 (𝔮𝔲𝔢𝔯𝔢𝔩𝔦𝔰) (𝔰𝔠𝔯𝔦𝔭𝔱𝔲𝔯𝔞) 16:54, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
3. No, just increase moderation on the Bar to help keep things civil. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 17:03, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

   @DuceMoosolini That's a bit tricky when users basically tell the Mods to fuck off when said Mods intervene. How do you propose to solve that problem? ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 17:36, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

   Is that a problem? It always looked to me that the mods were either not doing anything or else actively taking sides. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 17:41, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

   I feel there's only two mods actively moderating. I can't be active 24/7. But I try my best and I don't want to come off as taking sides. I try to be fair but that's hard when everyone's insulting and our political beliefs differ on many aspects. It's easier to moderate when there's some incel writing extinction essays for women, but not so when long time users are hurling insults at each other in a high stake environment. --It's-a me, 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄 21:07, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

4. Unsure as to why this is in the Chicken coop of all places (shouldn't this be a vote over at mod noticeboard or saloon talk?). Also, just moderate the Saloon? Like, just a quick look at the Saloon bar shows the only thing that happens is that the Saloon tends to get heated over the elections, not that there's a large volume of election related talk which would be the only reason to split it off (ie. splitting off WIGO Covid from WIGO World is because otherwise we'd have WIGO Covid all over WIGO World, overshadowing actual other news). The Crow (talk) 17:39, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
5. A waste of time because it creates a second free-for-all venue that needs patrolling for toxicity. Bongolian (talk) 17:42, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
6. Per everybody. Spriggina (puhua) (maksut) @ 18:43, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
7. I find this wholly unnecessary. The only solution this would create is to siphon off discussion into another article, screwing around with navigation and giving extra work for the upkeep of the place when the thing's finally over. Not to mention, it places a high amount of weight onto the US and while you can argue that its election is more impactful to the geopolitics than say, Canada's, I can also argue that the primaries are more important and would also warrant its own page. What we've got is fine enough, and what other people suggested is what we should do: just increase the moderation and people need to learn when to keep a cool head: we're not barbarians, we can have civil disagreements, and our morals aren't black and white when we do disagree. БaбyЛuigiOнФire🚓^(T|C) 19:53, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
8. Bongolian makes a valid point, believe it or not. nobs^{Free Roger Stone!} 06:23, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

   Fuck off. Bongolian (talk) 06:46, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

   If I could select two people to be stuck together in an elevator for an afternoon, it would be Bongolian and RobSmith. --RWRW (talk) 10:21, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Goat

• You can just use the talk page for WIGO elections. And it doesn't solve the underlying problem. If you didn't want to read elections subsections you wouldn't. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 15:49, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

  You are the underlying problem Ikanreed. Just stop being the underlying problem. Knock it the fuck off with the god damn Biden-Death camp shit already. Right now most countries around the world are trying to find space to bury their dead. The possible candidate for one party for the election in one single country months away is most certainly very low on the list of things to give a shit about. ShabiDOO 16:15, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

  Actually no, there's a few more than ikanreed yelling at people and only one that refuses to tone it down when a Mod tells them to. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 17:33, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

  I think ikanreed, while an instigator, isn't an underlying problem. People get angry when they get insulted or when there's a discussion with perceived high stakes. Being angry/stressed/anxious is not a very Rational™ state of mind. So much for RATIONALwiki. :P --It's-a me, 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄 20:21, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

  This right here. This is why I detest false politeness. "The crimes might be inhuman in scale and nature, but it doesn't immediately affect me so the biggest problem is hearing about it". It's a sham. And I cannot imagine reacting that way; it seems inhuman. False peace in the absence of conflict. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 20:23, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

• is there ever a time when someone in the us is not campaigning for president?AMassiveGay (talk) 18:23, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

tl;dr

"Hi, my name's LGM and today I'd like to try & draw sitewide attention to the shite, one-eyed job I've been doing as moderator."

Well played, champ. Stay ridiculous. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 20:14, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

No one's really quick to show up to defend you. If I was doing a bad job other people would've castigated me. It's not wise to continue engaging in behavior that got you sanctioned in the first place. It further convinces me you need to stop posting for probably months, and it certainly won't endear anyone else to your side. --It's-a me, 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄 20:26, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Oh dear, it appears some crazed maniac has gone on a power trip and blocked HBC without consulting anyone... Fun fact, If I really wanted to hurt you, I would have done so long before this point HBC. Really, learn when people are doing basic level moderation. Stupid runt. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 20:38, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Ey don't go "stupid runt", that'll make things worse. --It's-a me, 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄 20:39, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

You know HBC, you're not making the case for yourself any better by acting in this condescending, mocking manner. Just saying. БaбyЛuigiOнФire🚓^(T|C) 21:11, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘It's bad enough form to fight in the saloon, but when you also fight in the courtroom of your peers, it risks their wrath. Also, I would like to remind anyone of accusing moderator LGM of inaction that it has been the case for a while that light-handed, moderate-only-when-necessary has the general consensus (e.g., based on past election results) Bongolian (talk) 21:35, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

I feel like HBC's bullying a dragon here, and only serves to stir shit up. — Oxyaena ^Harass 23:01, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Kidnapping the princess more like. 🍄 --It's-a me, 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄 00:38, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

If he wants to properly stir LGM up he should just ask me, I'm an expert of doing that. БaбyЛuigiOнФire🚓^(T|C) 00:39, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Proposal: Discipline all involved

Tempers are really flaring up here, and neither HBC nor ikanreed/Oxy has made any attempt to deescalate the situation. We all know the last time we let a conflict like this fester, the site tore itself apart. We've already seen one Board member (Duce) and one mod resign (GrammarCommie). The community has to step in to put a lid on the endless fighting. To this effect, I propose the following:

1. Issue a block on all three members that last no less than three months.
2. Place Ikanreed and Oxy into sysoprevoke for as long as that block lasts.
3. Place Helena Bonham Carter under probation, under the terms that they must agree to, in general, play nice with the other kids, or they will get thrown out of the metaphorical sandbox.

Thoughts? Discussion? RoninMacbeth (talk) 17:56, 14 April 2020 (UTC) Proposal formally withdrawn. I've done enough harm. RoninMacbeth (talk) 03:30, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

@RoninMacbeth Yay to all three. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 18:13, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

No, this issue was dying down, it was this COOP case that brought it back into the spotlight. My involvement in that bar thread stopped several days ago, give it a rest already. — Oxyaena ^Harass 00:02, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

I would like to point out that HBC was already on a probation of sorts due to the previous coop case. I would like to see separate votes for each person. Three months seems a bit extreme to me, perhaps a shorter alternative can be offered. Bongolian (talk) 18:47, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

(EC) Going for a mild agree here. While I don't care for Ikanreed or HBC in this situation, Oxy is by far the most aggressive blocker/vandalism cleaner in the mainspace. Losing her on that would be somewhat of a concern on my end. At the same time, the fact that these users are a direct cause for board members and mods to currently resigning is an issue that also can't easily be overlooked. So it's a soft agree on my end. The Crow (talk) 18:53, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

I've caused nobody to resign. — Oxyaena ^Harass 00:02, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Actually, I mulled it over a bit. A topic ban on all three for a while seems like a much better approach. Going for no on this proposal outright. The Crow (talk) 19:13, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Only if you include Duce who has been excessively provacative and antagonistic on this subject. If he posts more of his slur-laden hate, I'm going to respond. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 19:15, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

I don't feel like a ban on the topic addresses the root of the problem: the core attitudes that drive the people to respond in the first place. People seriously learn when to keep a cool head at all times, we all understand the frustration of the election season, and I don't like Biden any more than anyone else who supports Bernie. БaбyЛuigiOнФire🚓^(T|C) 19:15, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Do you people think it's biden winning that's making me angry? And not statements like "Everyone who won't vote for biden is an entitled retard" or "you just want to kill people"? I've been perfectly able to engage with other users on the subject. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 19:18, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

And I mean that question one hundred percent seriously and not as some rhetorical trick. Do you actually think that? ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 19:19, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

That's why I propose banning people who agitate the others rather than the topic itself, I don't really care about the topic beforehand as long as people remain civil about it. It's far more enforceable, and people who say stuff like that regarding the topic are already making it bad for everyone. БaбyЛuigiOнФire🚓^(T|C) 19:20, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Then please, please please throw duce in that pot. Overwhelmingly provocative and super sensitive about not taking his shit. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 19:22, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

True, I've been talking to LeftyGreenMario about it irl, she seems to want to impose some punishment on him as well. БaбyЛuigiOнФire🚓^(T|C) 19:26, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

I don't want to see these decisions as punitive but a way to keep tensions at bay, prevent users from resigning, while we proceed. --It's-a me, 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄 19:37, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

@LeftyGreenMario I’m gonna have a real big problem if you punish me on the same level as Ikanreed. Keep in mind that only one of us actually substantively contributes to the wiki and that no one had a problem with me until this election crap started. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 21:32, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

(EC) How about a final warning for all involved (ikanreed/Oxy/duce) to not escalate subjects related to the 2020 US General Election (or if you must, in general in the saloon bar) to the point where people become excessively aggressive, and the next time that it goes wrong, apply the conditions of this proposal to that user. The full course, three months with sysoprevoke on those that break it. As for HBC, given how they technically already were on probation for this subject, a block seems warranted (don't think three months seems applicable here though)? Of course, this would have to be put to a community vote. The Crow (talk) 19:28, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

If we were to go through a final warning, Duce included though he might be able to negotiate because his behavior has been restricted, I think, to the 2020 primaries. However, no one should provoke these users into responding angrily. If there's a clear concern troll making these users mad, that still falls under, well, trolling and there's no ban. After all, this isn't a case of high community tensions between users, it's typical concern troll fare. --It's-a me, 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄 19:36, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I would agree on pretty much all this. Drive-by trolls aren't the subject at hand (just ignore and collapse them and move on), this is an attempt to prevent the situation from pointlessly escalating to avoid losing members. The Crow (talk) 19:40, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

@Ikanreed No. No, I'm not going to include Duce in this. You think this is just about this one issue? You have consistently, for years, been needlessly aggressive and combative. For all you talk about "good faith," you refuse to argue in good faith yourself. Duce did become an asshole, yes, but above he admitted his conduct is unbecoming. You, on the other hand, explicitly say on your userpage that anger directed at people on your part is "probably entirely due." If someone wants to add Duce to this list, fine. It won't be me, but I won't stop them. You, on the other hand, need to be brought to heel. And if that means having you spend a few months away from the website, then so be it, in my opinion. I'm sorry, ikanreed. But that's the way it is. RoninMacbeth (talk) 20:06, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Then I must refuse on principle to take this whole affair seriously. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 20:13, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Act on your principles. I'll act on mine. RoninMacbeth (talk) 20:15, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Yep. I understand that. Never lived my life any other way. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 20:19, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

I’ve already admitted my wrongdoing, and I’ve pledged to be less of an ass. If I go back on my word, feel free to discipline me in whatever manner you see fit. Ikanreed has done none of that, and has been far more aggressive on a wider variety of subjects. If you all wish to block me, at least don’t do so by his recommendation. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 21:29, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Fine, I can't deny the reasonableness of that. I'll take the topic ban. As indefinitely as needed. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 00:57, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

I will abide by the topic ban myself as well. No more elections arguments for me. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 01:09, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Okay, I'll throw my lot in as well. I'll abide by the topic ban. — Oxyaena ^Harass 01:34, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

One week topic ban

I think a one week Biden topic ban for HBC and Ikanreed would suffice with the intent to elevate to Ronin's proposal if this doesn't work ... is more than enough action, if in fact this proposal isn't already overdoing it (and at the moment I'm leaning towards even this being overkill).

Thoughts? ShabiDOO 18:52, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Yeah I agree this is overkill. The ban and probation is punishment enough. БaбyЛuigiOнФire🚓^(T|C) 19:05, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Non-resolution. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 19:10, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

A bit specific. It'll be easier to just get them off Saloon Bar for a while. Do mainspace stuff. --It's-a me, 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄 19:36, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

One week is too light imo. The primary season is going to continue for more months. --It's-a me, 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄 19:41, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Per ronin, I think a one sided topic ban I'll just ignore. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 20:19, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘Proposal: short-term ban from Saloon and Bernie/Biden/Trump pages, followed by cessation of inflammatory language/ad hominem attacks directed at any sysop on pain of sysoprevoke at the discretion of any moderator. Bongolian (talk) 20:50, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

You ignore that others were involved in the flaming too, why single us three out specifically when people like Summa weren't helping the case at all? — Oxyaena ^Harass 00:04, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

What,ME? Okay, I can see why you are mad at summa but what the fuck did I do? At worst, when I accused ikanreed of not grasping basic political strategy, that was still nowhere near the likes of ikanreed or even duce. I was not accusing anyone of being pro rape, was I? I wasn't accusing Bernie supporters of dooming the USA because of myopic partisanship was I? I have no idea what I did that merits involvement in a coop case on the same level as HBC or ikanreed. I was mostly making points and attempting rebuttals and only slipped to ad hominem in the end, got better(I tried to understand your objections and responded to your request for clarification), and even at my worst I was nowhere near the most inflammatory user present(so ive got nothing on "pro-rape").-Flandres (talk) 00:16, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Okay, fine. I'll cross you out. — Oxyaena ^Harass 00:29, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks just wanted to be clear. As for Bongolians proposal, why is Trump included in the topic list? We more or less all agree on him. Just like in 2016 the main issue is the democratic primary. Even when arguing whether or not to vote in the general election the focus is on the inadequacies of his opponents not somehow defending him as so much better.-Flandres (talk) 00:55, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

I included Trump because the issue being fought over was support of Bernie vs. Biden and the hypothetical consequences of re-electing Trump. If both parties think they can edit Trump-related pages without getting involved again in the Bernie vs. Biden argument, I'm fine with that. Bongolian (talk) 01:38, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

I don't edit trump pages anyways. He's tangentially on mission, and frankly there's just tiring amounts of trump content already. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 01:45, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Trump's gonna win anyway, so what's the big deal? nobs^{Free Roger Stone!} 06:33, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

After all

I've done for this wiki I cannot believe you folks are considering banning me. It'll probably happen anyway but a person like me only comes once in a lifetime, only a few select users do the work necessary to keep this wiki afloat, and I am one of them. I archive the Bar, the WIGOs (mostly WIGOW), make fixes to articles that are left dormant and alone, write articles etc. The others include Duce, Kazitor (who's retired), Dysk (retired), Spud (on "vacation"), FCP (semi-retired), to name a few. If you want to ban me go ahead, but I can't help but feel cheated. I`m one of the most aggressive pursuers of vandalism and spam here, as The Crow said. So all in all think of this as my official retirement announcement.

Cya. — Oxyaena ^Harass 23:22, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

At this point, I'm not even seeing disciplinary action as particularly necessary. We already have Duce and ikanreed essentially agreeing to ending the inflammatory language/ad hominem behavior. I wasn't even clear on how you were involved in this, Oxy, so I'm not accusing you of anything here. Things work better when we work together on the common goals of RW even when we don't agree with each others' politics. Getting past the political disagreements requires either not involving oneself in such discussions or working to maintain civil discussions. Bongolian (talk) 02:01, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. It looks like things are calming down on their own. Sorry for jumping the gun, people. RoninMacbeth (talk) 02:10, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

We should probably just archive the Coop at this point. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 02:11, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Let's hear what @LeftyGreenMario has to say first since she initiated the coop case. Bongolian (talk) 02:57, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

I was barely involved in this to begin with. — Oxyaena ^Harass 08:21, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

To be clear, I was only mildly on-board with the entire ban thing and ultimately I think a topic-ban in the saloon is the only thing that is really needed, if this is to go beyond a warning at this point (although most of the involved parties seem to be de-escalating). Banning is really something that should be considered a last ditch thing and I wouldn't say that we're at that point yet. Also, that proposal wasn't even up to a vote yet so it going through was already exceedingly unlikely. The Crow (talk) 05:30, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Oxy. 1. I was never for you being punished for anything (should anyone be punished at all)? 2. Doing lots of useful stuff doesn't make you immune to dealing with problems (whether those perceived problems are series, valid or fair or not). so threatening to quit like this is probably not as useful as simply explaining things from your side and letting this fizzle out. You did after all support a comment that virtually insults and shames the majority of users here who don't hold a hyper-extremist woke judgement on someone. You can understand how that is contentious when done multiple times? I don't find that worthy of any form of punishment because I don't see anything wrong with agreeing with someone. others do. Deal with it. ShabiDOO 08:42, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Nothing is "hyper-extremist" about objecting to being called evil for not voting for a rapist, in fact the opposite is "hyper-extremist," piss off. Biden's a fucking rapist, what is wrong with you? — Oxyaena ^Harass 11:12, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Pretty soon we'll have Bolsonaro's folks infiltrating Latino political movements in the U.S and accusing Democratic brass of raping them if this Putinist agent Tara Reade is believed.𝔖𝔲𝔪𝔪𝔞 𝔄𝔱𝔥𝔢𝔬𝔩𝔬𝔤𝔦𝔠𝔞 (𝔮𝔲𝔢𝔯𝔢𝔩𝔦𝔰) (𝔰𝔠𝔯𝔦𝔭𝔱𝔲𝔯𝔞) 13:09, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Could we please not restart this argument in the coop? Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 15:15, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Man, sure reads like intentional provocation this time, don't it? ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 15:29, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm not fond of the attitude that proclaims "Me and only a few people are the only reasons people keep this wiki afloat so I feel betrayed that you're backstabbing me." The wiki is a community-based project. Everyone's contributions (except the obvious shitheads of course) are valued here, no matter how large or small their edits are, no matter how frequent or infrequent they did. Making that sort of statement is counterintuitive to the community as a whole and it makes me feel others contributions are not valued unless they specifically devote time to this site, to which not everyone does because of potential, understandable real life reasons and sometimes, how much effort it is to write high quality articles (as I had found out a few days ago). Not to mention, omitting someone such as, say, my twin sister, LeftyGreenMario, who, even though I'm not active here too often until recently, I've noticed how much of a hard worker she is on the site in real life and how devoted she is to maintaining upkeep, on your list is hurtful and devalues the contributions she made to the site. I haven't been on there that often, and even I feel like this statement was an attack towards me. I don't know your history except from word of mouth from my sister and other community members, but just because you'd been active on the site doesn't mean you still shouldn't strive to at least tone down your provocative behavior a notch and still try to improve yourself as a person rather than just dismissing everyone else on this site; after all, that's the entire point of this coop case. Vandals and other shitheads are easy to deal with. People like you are difficult, and that's why it's imperative that you need to understand that no one actively wants you gone, at least, I don't as I can't speak for everyone, but our statement is that sometimes your behavior isn't acceptable and (it's not even a permanent ban) sometimes, action needs to be taken to enforce such behavior. БaбyЛuigiOнФire🚓^(T|C) 19:44, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Excellently said. Scream!! (talk) 20:17, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

We were given a mop, not a crown when we became sysops. I'm here because I believe in the RW purposes, not for the fame or glory. Bongolian (talk) 22:26, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Ronin seems to disagree with you all, I just find it annoying that none of you even appreciate what I do for this wiki. As for LGM I`m sorry I didn't include her, she's made valuable contributions too. — Oxyaena ^Harass 02:32, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

I just find it annoying that none of you even appreciate what I do for this wiki. Can't believe you actually said that. Ace^Moderator 02:57, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Where the hell have you been, Ace? — Oxyaena ^Harass 08:03, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

I have a busy life. Which you obviously don’t if you’re complaining about not getting recognised. Oxy, if you’re worried about people not appreciating you on a website most people use and edit as a hobby then you need to look at spreading your wings a little bit. Ace^Moderator 09:02, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Oh and again threatening to leave? Jesus man, grow up. Ace^Moderator 09:04, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

You forgetting what my sister did kinda reinforces the point I was trying to make: wiki editing is mostly a thankless effort that makes it relatively easy to forget what you did; even I don't quite remember all the edits I've made to wikis over time. I can't speak for everyone, but I really don't want you leaving over saloon drama, it does not offset your valuable contributions to this site. I do not hold personal grudges or draw a red flag on you should you get punished, I am a forgiving individual and I will forgive any blunders you made, as none of us are perfect. That you're a regular editor here is something that I and other RationalWiki editors strongly appreciate it. In general, I think editors should be thanked more often for their hard work, because I know how it feels like to not feel like your efforts are appreciated... БaбyЛuigiOнФire🚓^(T|C) 02:46, 17 April 2020 (UTC)