RationalWiki:Chicken coop

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HCM Level 5

Defenses placed on alert.

The chicken coop is for the avoidance, containment and resolution of cases of Headless Chicken Mode (HCM). Despite the name, this tends to be serious business.

This page can be used for reporting cases of administrative abuse (abuse of sysop or moderator abilities such as blocking, page deletion, or user rights management), general abuse (such as trolling, wandalism, and personal attacks), and conflicts which cannot be solved through normal talk page discussion (such as long-standing edit wars or article content disputes). Please be specific and include links to any relevant discussions, page edits or logs.

All editors are welcome to comment on the cases raised here, and to try to reach a consensus on any action to be taken. If no consensus can be reached, and the HCM seems to be escalating, moderators are expected to take some action. However, any serious or permanent solution, such as removal of rights or lengthy ban, requires a community vote here according to the guidelines laid out in our Community Standards.

Please try to resolve conflicts directly through discussion on other editor's talk pages before reporting them. It's better to just talk to someone rather than try to drag their name through the mud.

If the issue is not conflict resolution, but concerns RationalWiki policies, suggested changes to how things work around here, or similar matters of principle, please post on the Community Standards talk page instead.

When presenting a case here, be sure to include whom you are accusing, what exactly you are accusing them of, some hard evidence, and a brief explanation. Since the sole purpose of the Coop is to resolve these disputes, don't post unrelated or more generalized complaints here — if you do, your posts will be moved off the page. Any vote started within 48 hours of filing will be deleted and you will be blocked.

Use {{CoopNotice}} to inform the user in question, so that they have a chance to discuss their actions here.

As a final note, if you think this page is a good tactic to apply in gaming the mob into doing your bidding, you may be shocked to see your post archived quite swiftly.

nobs breaking our blocking policy

Why? Why are we letting nobs post when he blatantly violates our block policy? We block people over less. Why does nobs get a pass.

Signatures

• "Black Guns Matter": [1] Ikanreed told him to drop it, and the discussion page I think more or less entails why this is racist.
• "The only Black DNA in Kamala Harris was Willie Brown's": [2]. His most recent signature. This one basically pushes the alt-right conspiracy that Kamala Harris isn't actually black. Right now this conspiracy theory just has a mention in our "see also" section that it is a racist conspiracy theory and here is nobs pushing it.

"China did covid"

• Okay, under normal circumstances I wouldn't comment on this until well into President Trump's second term, but there may actually be something here for you guys to lern bout strategic thinking. Put asuide your biases for a mopment, which are all based upon early reporting originating with the CCP and echoed by global media, and assume momentarilly that covid 2 may indeed actually be a deliberate CCP bioweapon aack in retaliation for Trump tariffs. Let's further assume that in two or three years thios fact may either become firmly established or at a minimum, the CIA issues an assessment to that efect. Wouldn't that make Trump look awfully naive and reckless? Xi Jinping ate his lunch. That's why I see no need to be quick on the trigger, echoing CCP and CNN bullshit, calling the release a "conspiricy theory". But I know what it's like to be a dumbass lefist, pissing your pants to comment on things you don';t know or understand shit about.: [3]
• Consider these two "illogical" facts: (a) the CCP has no regard for the lives of the Chinese people, as more than aptly demonstarated by its own history; and (b) with the loss of an $850 billion yearly trade surplus with the United States, Chinese economic growth rates looked increasingly dim for the foreseeable future, imperilling the CCP legitimacy among the people of China. The CCP would have every motivation to wipe out unemployment in the crashing Chinese economy with a pandemic,. and attempt to mobilize opposition to a Trump second term by Trump's recklessness in upsetting the established international order (i.e. the transfering of wealth from the U.S. to China).: [4]
• One needs an understanding of weapons development. Go back to the Manhattan Project as your model. The excuse for funding the project then was not that the U.S. would ever use nuclear weapons, but if our enemies turned a theoretical concept into reality first, we'd be at a disadvantage. So this type of research is constant, and in recent decades there has even been shared research efforts between the U.S. and others, such as China, not only to develop things like a lethal bioweapon, but a vaccine to offset it, as well. Welcome to the world of global peace and cooperation.: [5]
• Such research had been going on since the founding of the PRC. The PRC was born amidst biological warfare. Unit 731 § Biological warfare. And as Noted early, cooperative research between member states has been going on since the PRC admission to the WTO.: [6]

Transphobia

• Second question: Medical science evidently treats a psychological of mental condition with knives, surgery, injections, and medication. Didn't the law make the scientific medical practice of lobotomies illegal? :[7]
• Oh, I gitit. "dysphoria" sounds more studied and scientific. All hail the great god science! That 'splains it.: [8]
• So the science says a patient tells the doctor, "Doc, I'm not happy with my gender." the Medical professional than says, "No problem. We can fix it with a knife." Is that about it?: [9]
• And LGM's next response is even better, comparing a guy schooled in the art of toilet plunging with someone holding a medical degree who thinks psychological ailments can be cured with a knife. C'mon, man. Where's your skepticism? :[10]

Sexism

• Wow. As someone who identifies as female, you'd think you'd be more skeptical of mechanics than me. :[11]
• Bullshit. I'm insinuating your quite naive if I you don't understand the male dominated field of auto mechanics are notorious for preying financially on female customers. And you even more naive in comparing auto mechanics to medical doctors to promote the asinine idea that people should have blind faith in either. Read RW mission statement, it's devoted to skepticism. How did a idiot and bigot like you ever get elected Moderator? :[12]
• Wait til your twice divorced. Then you'll be scared shitless by women. :[13]

In conclusion

There's much more than just this, but frankly, I think I've illustrated the point pretty thoroughly. Nobs keeps violating our Blocking Policy and this is very quickly turning unacceptable. Given that he is a sysop, I am raising this coop to request the mob to consider enforcing the Blocking Policy.

From RW:BLOCK:

   Harassment and offensive comments: Adding purely offensive material for the express purpose of causing emotional harm to others into a page. This includes discrimination against religious views, sex, age, nationality, mental health, race, sexual orientation, and gender identity, not necessarily someone making personal attacks. Constantly heckling users despite requests to stop can also be harassment, though context for these situations can vary.

I merely ask the mob this: If this behavior from nobs does not violate our CS, then... what really does? Action against him seems warranted, hence this coop case.

Discuss and perhaps suggest actions below. Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )} 06:42, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Discussion

One answer is that he's been cooped 7 times before (he keeps score: User:RobSmith). He claims 8 wins and 0 losses, but the 8^th time he brought to the coop himself. He considers it a win because he wasn't demopped even though that wasn't the issue. It turned out rather embarrassing for him nonetheless (though I rather doubt he actually is capable of embarrassment). Another answer is that there's always been a certain contingent of sysops who enjoy keeping a troll around whom they can poke for shits and giggles, just as there are Sysops who can never figure out why he's here. I took Nobs to the coop twice, but I can't be bothered anymore: it's rather wearying. You might be amused to read the civility page that I mostly wrote in regards to Nobs. You are not obligated in any way to be civil to Nobs because he is intellectually dishonest. Yes, I actually encouraged poking the troll. Bongolian (talk) 07:04, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

This is probably doomed to failure, as Bongolian very sensibly points out. But I'll support punishing Rob to the fullest extent for as long as this Coop case lasts. Spud (talk) 07:30, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Ban him and sysoprevoke him if he has sysop.--Hedvigsen^{Skreonk here} 08:54, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Makes me feel uncomfortable and an overall unpleasant user. I don't like having to endure relatively vile remarks directed at my gender nor at trans people nor at black people. He crossed that line of decency a long time ago. I don't think we should be entertaining ourselves or him any more and I think it speaks magnitudes to keep him with sysop but not someone like kiko who isn't anywhere like this guy. --It's-a me, 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄 07:48, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree. There was also this recent bullying/harassment comment by Nobs in the saloon that I deleted.[14] Bongolian (talk) 07:55, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

(ec) If I've offended anyone personally or collectively, I humbly ask for forgiveness and pledge to mend my ways. But it cuts both ways. Bongolian not only has authored a hit piece on me filled with lies hosted on this site, and routinely is hostile and abusive. without provocation. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 07:57, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

1) This is a coop regarding you, Nobs, not me. You're deflecting. 2) Most of the page about you was written by others. I added citations for everything that I added as well as for any of the material that might have possibly been libelous by others. 3) We already had this discussion long ago. My offer was then, as it is now, is to correct anything that you can show is demonstrably wrong. Rather than do that, you decided to edit your own page despite repeated warnings. Bongolian (talk) 18:02, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

(Ec) Yeah I mean people who are vulnerable and need support, Rob could come in and leave those comments like that. It's not worth keeping him around and letting him step on people or step on people like me who is trying to give advice to others. Rob is well aware I'm a woman and has derided me for being a woman, such as that "since you identify as a woman" quip, which I interpreted as a sarcastic passive aggressive attack on my identity, and I'm cis, but like he doesn't believe I'm cis. It's like when assholes online think I'm just posing as a woman.

I don't buy this Rob. You're not going to walk back on what you said about people here. --It's-a me, 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄 08:01, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Pardon my asking, in what postings above was I thoughtless or abusive toward you as a female? nobs^{Smile, and be friends..}

Answer: Your general misogyny.

1. "Wait til your twice divorced. Then you'll be scared shitless by women."[15]
2. Your Willie Brown sig.

Bongolian (talk) 17:38, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Just as I thought. Could it be because I expressed interest in running for Mod next month? nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 08:40, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Without commenting on the rest, the fact that he has some inane personal conspiracy theory about Covid isn't blockable. We wouldn't block someone who claimed the Earth was flat just for being wrong for instance. We would argue with them or ignore them. Basically stupidity and ignorance are not necessarily block reasons. The other stuff might be.Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 08:54, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

"China did COVID" is more dangerous than "Flat earth".--Hedvigsen^{Skreonk here} 08:56, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

@Bob, There you go defending Trump again. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 08:58, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

@Hedvigsen, The posting is specifically labeled as a hypothesis [16] in an evidence gathering process. There are no conclusions offered, other than "Xi ate Trump's lunch", which is plausibly true whether the release was accidental or deliberate. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 09:13, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Why is the statement true? Because Trump's not going to collect on the $250 billion in tariffs he so assiduously worked on for 3 years now that trade has broken down and decoupling is under way. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 09:18, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

In fact "Basically stupidity and ignorance are not necessarily block reasons" is the closest I think anyone is going to come to defending you.Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 09:26, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. Much appreciated. BTW, since the Naval War College says October is best month of the year to launch an attack on Taiwan across the straits, how do you think your boy Trump would react with only a few weeks before the election? nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 09:36, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Most of this stuff is pretty milquetoast. I'd say that the most offensive statements are the one on Kamala Harris and the transphobic stuff (although I'm inclined to say that his transphobia springs more from spectacular ignorance than actual malice, if that makes any difference). Blocking him for saying that China is responsible for COVID is basically blocking him for being a conspiracy theorist. I'd argue that doing so would reflect poorly on us. The sexism stuff... Meh, it's not something I'd feel comfortable repeating. But true or not, it's definitely a stereotype that mechanics prey on their customers, women in particular, overcharging them for unnecessary repairs, particularly women. I've had female friends either ask me to come with them to the mechanic or take somebody else with them simply because they're a man (same with car sales). So I don't think repeating said stereotype is offensive to women so much as it is offensive to mechanics. Also blocking him for "Wait til your twice divorced. Then you'll be scared shitless by women" is laughable.

Really what bothers me the most from what's been listed here is what's in the transphobic section. As previously said, I see it more as an example of flagrant stupidity than I do malice. I'm aware I'm going to catch some heat for making the distinction, but I think pointing out the nuance is necessary. We define transphobia on this website as "dislike or prejudice against trans people." I do not see Nobs as disliking trans people, to my knowledge. AFAIK he hasn't gone Cathy Brennan and implied they're unstable criminals or anything like that. If he has, it ought to be linked to in this coop. Rather, his stance seems to be that gender dysphoria is a psychological condition and that psychological conditions ought not be treated with procedures like surgery. Which is pretty dumb, as I've said before. Ignorant. Nobs is clearly not very educated on the subject matter. If that's worthy of a block, then so be it. But I'd argue that this is a website that dedicates no small amount of effort towards debunking this kind of idiocy and educating people about it. If we can't handle Nobs' ignorance it speaks very poorly of us-Hastur! (talk) 10:00, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

To be clear, I made this coop because nobs seems to blatantly get away with posting bigotry and I've had several users express to me that they are not comfortable with his bigotry, which is already something that breaks our blocking policy. I recommend some form of punitive action, as there has been an increasing pattern of nobs posting bigoted content rather than just the regular inane shit he usually posts. Either way, "China did Covid" isn't some harmless conspiracy theory, it's directly tied to recent discrimination against Asian-Americans, to the point that the U.S. House passed a motion to condemn it, which along with his racist-ass signatures is what prompted me to start this coop. The transphobic comments are well... even if I assume good faith, the presence of the dogwhistle of "a knife" (which is a way for transphobes to dismiss SRS, which from what I know is a tad more complicated than the suggestion that it's just cutting off genitalia). I'll admit that the transphobia part is the weakest part in this complaint, but the racist shit is really the focus for me here. Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )} 13:32, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

I fail to see what the house resolution has to do with conspiracy theories about the Chinese government. Frankly I'd say that Nobs' transphobia is far worse than his racism. I still haven't seen an explanation for why "Black guns matter" is racist. He made a crass joke about Kamala Harris, and I might accept a censure vote on that basis, but using that alone to call him a racist isn't exactly setting a high standard of evidence, at least in my opinion. And as for his use of the word "knife:" I think we're reading too much into that. Let's be real here, this guy is in his 40's or 50's, maybe older, and largely hangs out on conservative websites. He's not going to be up to date on the language. Expecting Rob to have a woke vocabulary is kinda silly. Anyways if we catch him saying things like "tranny" or "shemale" or outright saying that trans people ought to be rounded up and put in camps then I could see action taken against him. But as it is this is a very weak case-Hastur! (talk) 13:50, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

The blocking policy forbids discrimination against nationality. Point specifically to where I ever said "China did covid". You can not. I specifically always always always cited the Chinese Communist Party. Again, the Blocking policy does not forbid derogatory comments about a political ideology, which obviously is the only motivation for this coop case. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 15:59, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

The Chinese Communist Party (CCP) has 90 million members - some 25 million or 40% more than the 65 million who voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016. And even at that there we know for a fact there are silent dissenters and reformers within its ranks. Go ahead with your petty trumped up and grievance that I somehow impugned an entire nationality of 1.4 billion people - a provably false charge - and then you become complicit in the Chinese Communist Party's crimes against humanity.

The assertion is true - I'm probably at least a generation older than most of you; but it's also true young people fight wars, not us old farts. The Chinese Communist Party is your generation's problem, not mine. And it is bigger and way more powerful, and evil, than he Third Reich or Soviet Union ever were. Hiding your head in the sand by scapegoating an old fart who challenges your woke sensibilities solves nothing. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 16:28, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

For ignorance to be educated, good faith is a requirement, and nobs has never once made an argument here in good faith. However, operating under the paranoid style, relentlessly taking the piss, and treating your political opponents as advocates for evil whose points of view you will never take seriously or attempt to understand are all allowed, I believe, under current rules. Semipenultimate (talk) 16:28, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

I beg to differ. In good faith discussions here I learned that the climate crisis movement uses the term "sustainability" in very different sense than supply siders and Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan popularized the term beginning in the 1980s. This was very useful in bridging the gap between of misunderstanding between users and factions. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 16:35, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Pray elaborate your understanding of the difference. Semipenultimate (talk) 16:42, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

In short, in the 1970s the UK , US, and elsewhere suffered from stagflation. Alan Greenspan and supply-siders advocated "sustainable" growth. Opponents said it was impossible. Greenspan in his 16 year stewardship of the Federal Reserve Board proved it was indeed possible. "Sustainability", as I read in much climate advocacy literature refers to what we used to call "Zero-sum", or a rehashing of the "limits to growth" arguments. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 16:57, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Since that discussion and discovery here in RW, I see Wikipedia now has addressed the problem (back then, I only found a redirect to zero-sum arguments). WP now has a full blown article stating, "Sustainable development may be the organizing principle of sustainability, yet others may view the two terms as paradoxical (i.e., development is inherently unsustainable)." nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 17:13, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

And nowhere was the paradox more highlighted than in Greta Thunberg's famous U.N. speech condemning economic growth. But editors here at RW, in good faih discussions, isolated the misunderstanding between ideologies and generations years before. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 17:25, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Sustainability does not equate to zero-sum. Sustainability means that if you're going to generate a product under capitalism, you do so using methods and resources that can be sustained. Billiard balls made from ivory are not sustainable; billiard balls from cellulose are more so. This does not mean that you are arguing for the elimination of billiards, nobs! And then you use it as a way to attack Greta Thunberg, completely mischaracterizing her speech at the UN - she's excoriating inaction, period, or efforts that appear to do something but are just window dressing. There's your bad faith again - she's not 'condemning economic growth' or advocating some weird ZPG hellscape, it's fossil fuel usage, period. But the right-wing conspiracy theorist in you immediately goes there, screaming about how it's all a trick by the globalists to kill capitalism. You have this reflex that you do not see; it's the same root of why you can see so much wrong done to Justine Damond by the police in the character assassination following her murder by an officer and yet completely miss anything wrong in the same conduct by police with respect to Breonna Taylor, George Floyd, Botham Jean, and others. Semipenultimate (talk) 19:59, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Ultimately you have a fundamental lack of empathy for people who are not you, or similar to you in culture, faith, and politics. Semipenultimate (talk) 20:00, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

(A) Your definition of "sustainability" evidently conflicts with Wikipedia's; (B) I never "attacked" Greta Thunberg, I said she highlighted the paradox in understanding the term of sustainability (you evidently never listened to her speech); (C) you evidently never listened to Alan Greenspan speak, cause "sustainable growth" would be the only terms you come away with after hearing (Google Alan Greenspan "sustainable growth"); (D) After Greenspan and others began talking about "sustainable economic growth", high tech industries did not exist and opponents called it fantasy; you and I are talking today because of that vision of "sustainable growth" that has very little to do with diving up or rationing of natural resources such as fossil fuels; (E) Damond was convicted by a jury of her peers and I have no idea what "wrong" you are projecting on me. (F) As to empathy, what empathy do you have for Falun Gong, the Uighurs, Tibetans, Mongols, the billion plus Chinese people living under the yoke of the CCP, or the 2 million covid victims of communist bureaucracy and negligence, not to mention the surviving jobless? nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 20:28, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

A. Go re-read the first goddamn line of the Wikipedia article, nobs. It's about maintenance of change and continuity of operation. "Sustainability is the ability to exist constantly. In the 21st century, it refers generally to the capacity for the biosphere and human civilization to coexist. It is also defined as the process of people maintaining change in a homeostasis balanced environment, in which the exploitation of resources, the direction of investments, the orientation of technological development and institutional change are all in harmony and enhance both current and future potential to meet human needs and aspirations." It's about reducing negative impact, not this zero sum nonsense you're reading into it. B. I have read her entire UN speech, nobs. Indicate where in the speech where she condemns 'economic growth' in its entirety, as you describe. Oh look, it's a complete transcript! C. Gish Gallop, D. Gish Gallop, E. For some reason you demonstrate a very strong reaction when a white person is killed by a black officer but never in the reverse, see Tamir Rice and the sad company in which he is included, F. motherfucker I have SPECIFICALLY condemned the government of China as a pack of authoritarian assholes DIRECTLY FUCKING TO YOU previously. You only claim to give a shit about the Uighurs because it's a weapon to use, a tactic, a calculation. It is possible for both the current US regime AND the Chinese government to be horrible pieces of shit, nobs, it's not mutually exclusive. Semipenultimate (talk) 14:39, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

(A) The Wikipedia article says there is no universal agreed upon definition of "sustainability", citing the paradox that that some say development is unsustainable. You obviously are coming down on one side of that issue, ignoring the lack of a universal agreement on the definition of the term. My original point is that the "paradox" was first identified here in Rationalwiki between good faith users. (E) As to whatever your bigoted stereotypes are on race issues, I demonstrate jackshit "reaction" on day-to-day news items on police shootings, and most all social issues. You have some bigoted stereotype about people who do not think like you, that you are trying to project on me nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 16:10, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Dictionaries are often very useful for the precise definition of a word. Also, thank you for admitting, with your lack of response, that Greta Thunberg never 'condemned econimc growth' in her UN speech. Lastly, nobs, I don't stereotype you at all, I know exactly what you believe about politics. I used to BE you, after all. Your eyes just fail to see some injustice in the same way your ears heard Greta Thunberg condemn economic growth in her UN speech, is all. Semipenultimate (talk) 16:11, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Not to start off a comment with “as a trans person”, but as a trans person, I can say that Rob has been here more than long enough to learn how to not be a cock if that’s what he wanted to do. It’s not. 💖 ASELA^कुरा 💖 17:50, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

I have never been cruel to anyone suffering from a medically certifiable disability. I have questioned the criteria of diagnosis and treatment within the medical profession. Nuff said for a layman. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 18:06, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

If you haven't been able to learn from all your time on this wiki that transgender isn't a disability and calling transgender people disabled is cruel and hurtful in itself, you must be either willfully ignorant or, as Semipenultimate asserts, a bad faith editor. Either of these would mean that it's futile to try and educate you. Knight Commander^{In Service}_{To Her}^Goatness 19:26, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Wait wait wait. Gender dysphoria is not a medically certifiable disability? Now I'm getting conflicting signals from editors of this site. In no context of whatever transgenderism is (honestly, I don't know), I've never discussed the phenomenon with anyone on this site outside of a scientifically diagnosed medical condition. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 19:36, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Gender dysphoria and Transgender are two different things. I learned it from an editor of this site. And you responded up there to someone who said they are a trans person. Knight Commander^{In Service}_{To Her}^Goatness 19:42, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Ok, so I'm learning. But let me add this, I generally do not tailor any discussion response to what or how a person identifies themselves. I usually always speak to a universal or generic audience. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 19:52, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

I already got burned once. I'm not gonna be one of only two people to vote to ban again. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 18:48, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Statement from nobs

Without making excuses, I humbly agree the Kamala sig was an error in judgement. And I apologize. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 19:07, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

It's noteworthy that we have three simultaneous strategies from Nobs in the coop: I didn't do it, I won't do it again, and he did it too. I don't believe any of them. Bongolian (talk) 19:08, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Are we seriously upset about "Wait til your twice divorced. Then you'll be scared shitless by women?" If we can't handle 80's sitcom humor we ought to shut this site down-Hastur! (talk) 19:12, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Kamala apology seems good enough to me. The rest is just usual nobshite. No action necessary. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 19:23, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

the racist and transphobic stuff needs addressing. its not nobs bullshit pov stuff thats a problem, its a snide comment here, a snide comment there. i assume they meant as jokes rather anything malicious - at least i think they are not usually aimed at any one individual even if made response to a specific post. we have blcked people for less, but nobs gets a pass. he always gets a pass. there in lies the problem. how many times can you say cut that shit out, when if they dont nothing happens? some sanction is necessary to fix behaviour that is at best insensitive, thoughtless, callous to the struggles of those living a different life to him.

racist, homophobic, or transphobic comments dont need to be super offensive or aimed at anyone in particular to be hurtful or damaging. the targets of such bile hear such stuff all the time elsewhere, with episodes with much more vitriol and naked hate lodged firmly in their minds. nobs comments might seem asinine in comparison if the culmulative abuse of a life a time hasnt primed you to feel a slap in the face when you see nobs assorted comments that though mild still echo the sentiment of worse abuse you've endured before. the cuts and bruises might healed quickly but mental scars linger for years after. the backhanded comments, the thoughtless insensitive always prodding wounds never allowed to heal. you can filter alot out but some places they shout out to you, make focus on them, and remind you of times when you where made to feel worthless, remind you they hate you, that they always will.

im not trying to lay a life times abuse onto nobs shoulders or some crass comments, merely trying to explain you cannot let minor abuse slide because it doesnt exist in a vacuum it impacts the effects worse more serious abuses have on you, on old past trauma still haunting you, or the recent still fresh kind. sure one can over react and we cant wrap ourselves in cotton wool. but we can be mindful of different environments require differing levels of tact and consideration. a racist joke between friends who know one and other, knw where the line is, wont fly where it will be broadcast to a larger audience who dont know you. your friend may know you are not serious, but to everyone else you are just another racist. and when we call out out something that you think is mild or inoffensive because you've never been the target of bigotry and are not under constant attack in a culture war to brush us off, to tell us to calm down snowflake, just a joke. it further demeans us, tells us our opinion doesnt matter, YOU'RE not offended why should we? trans/homophobic jokes on a site filled with openly lgbt folk not good even if your mates down the pub think they are hilarious. saying nobs just being nobs doesnt prevent further incidents, especially if he is oblivious to the negative effects some comments have on some people and we just say its fine.

but the nobs being nobs defense is only put forward by a couple of users, with a long time served. nobs is a link for some to a nostalgic past rationalwiki long since gone. to them nobs is the friend who isnt serious. they know him. sparred with him for years. for the rest of us though he often just looks racist, or trans/homophobic.

some sanction, or a concrete threat of sanction if they continue with thoughtless and insensitive comments or jokes that stab at the very being of some of the demographics here. making jokes at the expense of groups that have struggled and still struggle just for the right to exist when you are not part of that group but from the oppressing group they struggle against takes more awareness and nuance than can be gleaned from our talk pages. continually tolerating this stuff doesnt really do much of 'welcoming opinions we disagree with' but does make lgbt or racial minorities feel less than welcome. AMassiveGay (talk) 19:25, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

This is long-winded, recycled bullshit. It's the same as saying that calling out members of the communist party and human rights abusers is racist, which is exactly what this coop case was predicated on. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 19:44, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

RobSmith...you say that you want to learn and change. That's nice to hear. What exactly is it that you need to learn? Please be specific. How is it you are going to change? Please give concrete examples. ShabiDOO 23:20, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

I don't understand 58 different genders or why it's such a big deal, or let alone how you can fit 58 different genders on a drivers license, for openers. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 23:49, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

@RobSmith, gender is not what is in your pants. This is a PRATT at this point.--Hedvigsen^{Skreonk here} 08:55, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

This doesn't sound like someone who wants to learn but who instead wants to make fun of an issue by mis-characterizing it through hyperbole and ridicule and complaining about non-issues (who gives the fuck about a license format?). In matters for all sorts of reasons but probably the biggest reason is accommodating people's gender identities helps make thousands of people less miserable and if it literally costs you nothing to accommodate it other than having to remember a bloody pronoun and makes thousands of people less miserable why the fuck wouldn't you just get over it and accommodate them? ShabiDOO 00:13, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

That's fair criticism of me personally, however the point I intend to make is how millions of disinterested observers react to being threatened with criminal prosecution for hate crimes. That's whom I am speaking for. It's not like the proponents of whatever it is we're talking about actually read, How to Win Friends and Influence People.

I didn't intend to come across as snide, but for the type of social revolution being proposed, there literally are tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions of people on the North American continent who, rightly or wrongly, believe they stand in danger of being stuck in gulag re-education camps for using the wrong pronoun. Something is seriously lacking here for some of these social changes being proposed. My apologies for giving you a heads up on the failures of this movement to communicate and disclose whatever their intentions are. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 00:24, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘I do not think that Nobs' apology is meaningful or that his sig was insignificant. He succinctly expressed his sexism, racism, conspiracy theorizing, and bullying in once succinct sentence:

1. The statement was sexist because it tried to made the sexual history of a powerful woman of importance to her politics.
2. It was racist because it tried to deny Harris' actual ancestry.
3. It was conspiracist because it echoed the same birtherist far-right framing against African Americans.
4. It was bullying because bullies frequently use 'jokes' to offend people who not the people in power: minorities, women, people who can't easily defend themselves.

It is also significant that Nobs simply apologized without showing any understanding or acknowledging what he did or whom he offended. Bongolian (talk) 02:34, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

It was an error in judgement. What more self flagellation do you want? I said I would make no excuses. Why are you begging, yet once again, to have more of your bullshit and lies torn apart? nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 05:13, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

"Kinky!" Bongolian (talk) 05:28, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Why don't you go revert your edits to the Pissgate article now that the story has been debunked. ("it tried to made the sexual history of a powerful woman [man] of importance to her politics.") Better yet, show some cahoonies and nominate it for deletion. Oh, I forgot; truth and the credibility of Rationalwiki as a source is meaningless to you. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 05:37, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Deflecting again. Bongolian (talk) 06:15, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ I said no excuses. Let me bring this tortuous statement to a swift end by expanding the explanation of my error in judgment, if Bongolian will let me. It was a sick, ill-advised joke gleaned from her home state of California, from her constituents and the people who know her best. It's at least one of three well known jokes or nicknames used in California among both supporters and non-supporters. Every candidate who rises on the national stage faces this problem, having the home state people educate the rest of the country about what their constituents say behind the candidates back. If you didn't hear it from me, you would of heard it from somewhere else eventually. My error in judgement was bringing it here, not because I knew it wouldn't be received well, but I did it to be a mean asshole and tweek people. Period. Go ahead, hate on me for something I already knew would offend you at some point in your life down the road. It was my mistake to play the Christ figure and take the sins of the world upon my back. It would have been easier to be a hypocrite and shut up. But I did it to offend people, for which I'm sorry. Even Ratwikians are people with feelings and sensibilities. I'm sorry. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 06:34, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

I'm unimpressed. We've seen you give bullshit apologies in the coop before. You haven't said anything about your other sig, or why you felt the need to give unsympathetic and misogynistic advice to Rationalzombie94 in a discussion involving a woman (LGM). Oh, and while you're blaming California, don't forget to blame California for Charles Manson while you're making your 'apology' rationalization. Bongolian (talk) 03:49, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

I'm sorry you can't tell the difference between an explanation and an excuse (you seem to read much into things that are not there). I'm sorry. I take full responsibility for my erroneous actions. Do I regret what I did? Yes. Will I sit still for the type of North Korean brainwashing you'd like to administer to purge me of my conservative views? Not likely. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 04:27, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Anyways, I offered an expanded explanation of as to why I agree with the community assessment that I had stepped over the line of decorum. I did so to bring this process to a swift conclusion. I asked for your forbearance to do so, which you seem to want to re-litigate other issues now. Motion to dismiss. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 04:44, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Fuck you for falsely associating me with North Korea. You can eat shit-on-a-stick for all I care. Bongolian (talk) 04:58, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

At least we now have a clearer understanding of Bongolian's definition of racism now. A statement about "the sexual history of a powerful man of importance to his politics" that is completely false is not racist, whereas a statement about "the sexual history of a powerful woman of importance to her politics" that is only half true is racist. This has been productive, hopefully, for the community. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 05:05, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Motion to dismiss. Bongolian shouldn't be allowed to derail an orderly process. Hey, Bongolian, go home, take an AlkaSelzer. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 05:13, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Bongolian didn't start this Coop case. And even if he had derailed the discussion, which he most certainly has not, that would be no reason to dismiss the thing completely. Spud (talk) 05:28, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Ok. I issued a statement. He's not happy with it. Where do we go from here? nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 05:36, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘Voting can commence in about 40 minutes (48 hours after the coop began) if anyone cares to propose punishments to vote on. Bongolian (talk) 06:09, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

slap him on the wrist for that crass Kamala Harris joke-Hastur! (talk) 06:32, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

It would by a pyrric victory; I can flush my Mod aspirations down the toilet. Maybe I not the neutral voice and problem solver I imagine myself to be. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 07:10, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

OTOH, when I ran for the board of Trustees, I ran on a platform of being able help with fundraising, which I see either a dime hasn't come in for over a week or else somebody's sleeping on the job and hasn't updated the banner headline. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 07:15, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Don't worry, George Soros will make sure we meet our fundraising goals-Hastur! (talk) 07:23, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

I thought that was supposed to be a secret?Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 08:11, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Nobs' behavior isn't extreme enough to warrant a ban, but 3.6 days or π weeks block might be voted on. Others have been blocked that long for less. Also, his mop could be removed to enforce the block, but should be restored afterwards, since the old knobhead actually needs it to defend himself from the regularly administered spontaneous permablocks. Knight Commander^{In Service}_{To Her}^Goatness 15:14, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

His mop will have to be taken away from him, at least temporarily, to get across the point of it being a serious block. Whatever punishment he gets should be a real punishment, not a symbolic one that he can undo with one click. Spud (talk) 10:23, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

I would say a 3.6 days/weeks block would at least get the message across. Personally, IDT we need to perma him over this all quite yet (which doesn't seem to get a lot of support anyway), but at least a temp block would get the point across that we don't tolerate racist stuff. Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )} 11:26, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Willie Brown is not Black? Willie Brown supports Biden, AFAIK. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 15:22, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Let me be clear: I admitted to an error in judgement in performing an action for the purpose of being mean spirited and offending people. I did it to force people to think, and force them out of their comfort zone. That was an error in judgement. I did not admit to any racist intent. If you think there's some racist intent motivated by mens rea, have at it. Let's litigate it. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 15:38, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

I do not support letting Nobs off the hook yet again. He's been hit with a wet noodle so many times, he should convert to Pastafarianism. The above statement by Nobs shows his lack of understanding of what he did and does. Bongolian (talk) 17:29, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

So what exactly are we gonna vote on? Do you want to try for a full ban or just a temporary block? Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 17:36, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

I guess only temporary block, unless someone actually thinks Nobs' actions are worthy of a full ban. Vote should be on the block length, I propose separate yes/no votes for 3.6 days and π weeks. If both get more yes than no votes the longer block applies. If nays win in both votes, Nobs gets to add 9th victorious coop case in his profile. Knight Commander^{In Service}_{To Her}^Goatness 18:02, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

We could always do what I suggested on the talk page for this article-hold a first round of voting to determine whether he should be blocked at all, and if that goes forward a second round can be held over how long said block should be.-Flandres (talk) 18:16, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

We could, but since every vote needs to go for at least 4 days, that would extend this garbage fire longer than it needs to go (at least if the ayes for blocking at all win). Side by side votes on different block lengths could be carried simultaneously. Knight Commander^{In Service}_{To Her}^Goatness 18:37, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

I would not view a temporary block as a victory. I fess up to acting in an uncivil manner and am ready to drink my medicine on that. I would accept a temporary block on those grounds to heart as a serious rebuke from the community. However, if there is any implication of acting in a racist, sexist, transphobic, or bigoted manner in the voting language, prepare for more litigation. Thank you. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 19:09, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘Are you threatening actual legal action? Bongolian (talk) 19:14, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

No. I'm speaking of extended litigation here in the Coop in response to your bullshit and lies. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 19:21, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

You, and Sirius, evidently are the ones who want to violate African American constitutional and civil rights by taking their right to own a gun away. Let's litigate here, then, and you can articulate why defending African American rights is racist. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 19:25, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Bongolian, I admitted to being a mean prick, which goes against my Chrisitan values. We all can get caught up in emotion, particularly if you are slandered as a racist, which even demeans the meaning and value of the term in the fight against racism. Your above statement reinforces your advocacy for brainwashing in support of your partisan intolerance. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 17:43, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

The issue is not that you're a mean prick, Nobs. I would guess that a lot of s here have been mean pricks at some points in our live. The issue here is primarily that you're a racist and a misogynist. You won't admit it, and you appear to think that racism and misogyny is a partisan issue. Bongolian (talk) 19:03, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Nobs is trying to deflect again. Bongolian (talk) 19:04, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

In your case, you were a mean prick in litigation speaking to a specific individual, me, telling me to eat shit on a stick as a response to valid criticism and my defense; in my case, I specifically wanted to tweek a large group of individuals - Democrat voters who support Kamala Harris and do not see their own racism. I accept that it was offensive, was an error in judgment, and not the right way to go about it. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 19:19, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Let's go ahead and litigate the "Black Guns Matter" sig, and let's see who are the racists who would deny African American's constitutionally guaranteed rights. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 17:47, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

If you mean "Black Gun Rights Matter" one would think you would be lucid enough to say so. As it is, "Black Guns Matter," seems more like a racist warning than an assertion of rights. Don't be an idiot.Ariel31459 (talk) 21:35, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Black Guns Matter is an organization [17][18][19] which I wholeheartedly support and endorse. One would think alleged civil rights activists would know that. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 23:04, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Rob is just a fucking dick

I don't give a shit what happens to him. Who he is, himself, is a punishment in and of itself. Ace^Moderator 03:33, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Voting time

The following votes are simple aye-nay votes. For permanent banning a 66%+1 threshold is required, the rest is 50%+1. If one or more votes achieve the sufficient votes then all penalties will be applied consecutively (3 week block plus 3 month block will result in 3 month and 3 week block). Demopping requires a simple majority.

Ban

Aye

1. Typical RWians defending the indefensible lol. — Oxyaena ^Harass 03:41, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
2. I'll preface this vote by pointing out the following; I have been consistently favourable towards nobs in numerous past Coop cases and moderation actions. I defended him when Bongolian attempted to get mob support for Sysoprevoke in a prior Coop case. I voted for nobs when he ran for Moderator, and supported his campaign. I've always backed him as the 'harmless crank' and supported his right to free speech here. Now, I am voting for a permanent ban here for three simple reasons. The first is that nobs is a troll, I should know, I'm one myself on occasion. He has wasted thousands of hours of administrative time here, he has systemically posted outrageous bait commentary, in discussions he ain't involved in, to provoke a reaction, and he's done this for years. The second reason, is that nobs is a remnant of the past RationalWiki, which we cling onto out of nostalgia rather than rationality, he is one of the last truly far-right users active here, and this ain't good. On Conservapedia, nobs has created pages which are a core part of Qanon, indeed he is a very prominent believer in conspiracies such as the Clinton Body Count, and other Trumpian extremist views. I seriously question why today in 2020, we are platforming a man like this, and what affect it has on the casual observer, to see our forum pages full of dangerous extremist rhetoric. The third and perhaps most serious reason I have for endorsing a permanent ban, is how his far-right extremist commentary is occasionally straying into harrassment of editors here, notably in recent months transphobia, often targeted, but historically his attacks are more based on racism, and casual homophobia. In short, nobs is an overall negative to this project, something which a short block will not alleviate in any way. [Dysk] Judge Dredd (talk) 15:32, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Nay

1. Too extreme ShabiDOO 17:46, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
2. -Hastur! (talk) 17:50, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
3. No, not warranted. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 17:59, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
4. Not warranted. Knight Commander^{In Service}_{To Her}^Goatness 18:14, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
5. No - Scream!! (talk) 19:30, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
6. We want to make a statement, not make a manifesto. Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )} 21:01, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
7. --RWRW (talk) 00:29, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

3.14159265359 day block

Aye

1. This is for the casual racism. ShabiDOO 17:46, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
2. Changing to this with time change and in case pi weeks won't pass. Knight Commander^{In Service}_{To Her}^Goatness 19:07, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
3. Racism and sexism both shouldn't be and aren't tolerated here. Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )} 21:01, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
4. Should sting enough to serve as a warning. My patience is not unlimited. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 22:04, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
5. Never leave home without a backup plan(edit-in the unlikely event of a tie my vote goes to the pi week one).-Flandres (talk) 22:16, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Nay

1. -Hastur! (talk) 17:50, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
2. No Scream!! (talk) 19:32, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
3. Nobs is a repeat offender, going way back. A 3-day block will just encourage him to do it again. Bongolian (talk) 23:29, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Invalid votes

1. Ridiculous in its shortness. Knight Commander^{In Service}_{To Her}^Goatness 18:14, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

3.14159265359 week block

Aye

1. This is for the transphobia. ShabiDOO 17:46, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
2. Sure, could do with 22 Nobs free days. Knight Commander^{In Service}_{To Her}^Goatness 18:14, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
3. Flandres (talk) 18:34, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
4. Racism and sexism both shouldn't be and aren't tolerated here. Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )} 21:01, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
5. Yes. Bongolian (talk) 23:27, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
6. For the sexism, racism and transphobia. if he keeps it up, longer blocks will follow. Let this be a warning. Spud (talk) 00:30, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

   I hesitated to bring up the specific reasons because Nobs threatened to 'litigate' us (on RW presumably) for mentioning them in the vote. So there we have it. That threat in an of itself is a good reason for giving him an insignificant punishment. The evidence of bigotry is both recent and longstanding. Bongolian (talk) 00:55, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

   Editors are free to express opinions and motivations for their vote. Why would anyone have a problem with that, even if their opinions are entirely full of shit? nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 03:10, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

7. I’d personally go longer just for the transphobia (his other shit is gross too but transphobia makes me personally feel unwelcome), but I doubt it’ll pass, so good enough. 💖 ASELA^कुरा 💖 03:28, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Nay

1. -Hastur! (talk) 17:50, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
2. Scream!! (talk) 19:32, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
3. Also seems too long. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 22:14, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
4. Too long a block. Try the shorter block first, only longer if improper behavior continues. CoryUsar (talk) 02:51, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

3.14159265359 month block

Nay

1. The first two are enough. ShabiDOO 17:46, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
2. -Hastur! (talk) 17:50, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
3. Too long. Knight Commander^{In Service}_{To Her}^Goatness 18:14, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
4. Scream!! (talk) 19:33, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
5. Too long, this is more about sending nobs the message that his racist/sexist shit isn't welcome here. Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )} 21:01, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
6. Excessive. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 22:06, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Demopping

Nay

1. -Hastur! (talk) 17:50, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
2. The old coot would get blocked forever if we did that. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 18:00, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

   You say this like it's a bad thing. --It's-a me, 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄 19:03, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

   I wouldn’t cry if he got banned, but it needs to go through the coop. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 22:05, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

   Yeah, I support any non-trivial punishment that is likely to win a majority. Bongolian (talk) 04:36, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

3. No Scream!! (talk) 19:33, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
4. He hasn't abused sysop powers. Demop should only happen to enforce any blocks applied to nobs and reinstated afterwards. Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )}
5. --RWRW (talk) 00:31, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
6. What Sirius said. Knight Commander^{In Service}_{To Her}^Goatness 05:19, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Goat

• An unconvincing prosecution, if you ask me. While I'm willing to believe that Nobs is a racist or transphobe the case hasn't been made on this page-Hastur! (talk) 17:52, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

  I'm extremely disappointed you're willing to write off all what's said here in your conclusion of "the case hasn't been made yet" and "ehhhh it's milquetoast" toward overt transphobia just so you and others that oppose him getting demopped or banned to get the opportunity to continue goading him for more replies that are absolute venom. It tells me a lot about you that you're wanton to keep oxy off the mop but you want this specimen to keep his mop despite Robs being far more unpleasant, vile, and seething toward others, for the sake of your personal benefit of "having fun" and shallow pretense of an open-discourse wiki. --It's-a me, 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄 19:18, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

  Well, he accepts gender dysphoria as a legitimate diagnosis, which AFAIK is not a common trope among transphobes. Unless you are lumping in transmedicalists with transphobes. Is Nobs a transmedicalist? I doubt it. He doesn't know enough about the subject matter to have an informed opinion. Which is what this boils down to. It's fairly clear that Rob is ignorant of trans issues. Less so that he has any enmity towards trans individuals. As far as comparing him to Oxyaena, Rob has never abused his sysop rights to my knowledge so I'm not sure what you're getting at. Finally, this IS an open-discourse wiki. Always has been. Trying to pretend otherwise is bizarre-Hastur! (talk) 19:25, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

  "specimen"? A bit de-humanizing, isn't it? nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 20:59, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

  Hastur that's ridiculous. He has been educated by people here about this many times (extensively in fact). The ignorance gambit doesn't work anymore. At this point he is willfully refusing to listen and purposefully choosing deny transphobia as a serious phenomena through repeating transphobic talking points. It's like saying a biggot doesn't know any better again and again despite people calling him out and giving concrete examples why he is wrong and linking to empirical data that demonstrates otherwise. Trans-gendered people here deserve better than that. ShabiDOO 19:55, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

  Kindly outline Rob's transphobia for me. Because based on what was posted here it would appear that his stance is something along the lines of "reassignment surgery is not necessarily the only cure for gender dysphoria." He may have expressed it poorly but the notion is actually quite common in the trans movement, as I understand it.-Hastur! (talk) 20:10, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

  Hastur I don't understand you. First you are telling us to just tolerate Nobs's transphobia and now you are insinuating he isn't transphobic at all and the only questionable view he holds is held by some in the trans community. So what is it? Does he not hold offensive views or should we just tolerate the offensive views he holds because he lacks education? Decide which one is the case and stick with it. After Ace had misgendered Oxy I called him out on it and Ace immediately corrected it and appologised. Nobs insinuated that Ace didn't have any testicles because he respected Oxy's gender which showed his own disrespect for transgendered people and the gender they identify with but also demeaned another use for respecting it and then insinuated men are emasculated cucks when they decide to respect a transgendered person's gender they identify with. Before this, Delibrida was asking the community for their support over their difficulty in coming to terms with their gender though that they were fairly sure they were a woman and while everyone else offered support nobs asked Delibrida, on an overwhelmingly atheist forum, if they had "tried prayer" as though there was something wrong with their questioning their gender and a dialogue with a nonexistent fictional homophobic entity in the sky would sort out their confusion. These are but two examples not to mention Nobs reducing transgender ism as a problem per whether it is even medically recognized or not or a psychological problem rather than the overwhelmingly accepted medical view that it is not inherently a psychological problem, it is totally medically recognized and all of this is besides the point and a typical distraction from simply respecting that others identify with other genders and not discriminating against them. ShabiDOO 06:21, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

  What Shabidoo said. 💖 ASELA^कुरा 💖 06:34, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

  I do not recall saying that we should tolerate Rob's transphobia. Please provide diffs. Regardless, I will elaborate my position (not that you deserve me taking the time to do so): we will always tolerate dissenting viewpoints on this wiki. Some of those dissenting viewpoints may be transhobic. However we will not tolerate harassment or abuse. If RobS is transphobic, we would not ban him on that basis. We would instead be banning him for, say, calling people "trannies" or simply accusing trans individuals of being mentally ill or otherwise inferior. As for the instances of his alleged transphobia/abuse you are citing, you didn't provide diffs, which means I can't see the context for myself. And I have no reason to believe your interpretation of the context- particular since my own experiences with you lead me to believe you are quick to assume bad faith. I will also note that a religious man suggesting prayer as a solution is in fact highly typical. That Nobs obtusely suggested it on a forum with a large percentage of atheists might be gauche, but hardly a felony. He believes in the superiority of his world view, as do we all. He promotes his world view, as do we all. I'd say it contributed to the discussion about as much as, say, another user butting in to a conversation about the eviction crisis with "we just need to abolish private property." Lastly Nobs perceiving gender dysphoria as a psychological condition just speaks to his age and his social group. I have worked with and known a number of elderly individuals and I feel comfortable saying that it's not very realistic to expect most of them to grasp gender issues. They were raised to perceive things a certain way and at the end of the day all we can expect is for them to adopt a "live and let live" philosophy. If you desire to spend your time working to get senior citizens or even 50 year olds to understand the nuances of gender theory and more recent developments in biology, go right ahead. I've got other shit to do, personally.-Hastur! (talk) 07:01, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

So unless someone says faggot, n****r, trannie, feminist c**t then their homophobia, racism, transphobia and sexism is fair game, even when it is damaging to those groups and users here on the wiki. That's fine...we know where you stand. I don't think for a second it's acceptable just because a user is old and stubborn and refuses to educate themselves doesn't make it okay. No...that's their fucking problem. Perhaps if you suffered from hate and discrimination you might sympathise enough to do something about it. It doesn't need to be tolerated and people will vote accordingly. ShabiDOO 07:21, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

In the 1990s, we debated The Dumbing Down of America. Why would it be surprising 20 years later we're discussing the results? nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 07:26, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

• Ahem, doesn't the Blocking policy violation I'm charge with read, "Harassment and offensive comments: Adding purely offensive material for the express purpose of causing emotional harm to others into a page. This includes discrimination against religious views...I'm offended. I'm ready to slash my wrists. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 06:37, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

  Again, more evidence that Nobs has no real understanding of what he did and no remorse except that he may get punished. Bongolian (talk) 07:56, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

  Bullshit. I understand what I did. I made the mistake of thinking equal rights exist in this new world you've created for yourself. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 14:48, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

  You've made it abundantly clear. Blacks do not have the right to defend themselves with guns, and anybody who does not believe in your nonexistent nonexistent sky daddy has to zip it. Well I've got news for you, most African Americans don't believe in your nonexistent nonexistent sky daddy. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 14:59, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

• BTW, if it's nonexistent, how can it be homophobic? or are we stretching the limits of rationalization here? nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 07:15, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

• Can you do pi days instead of hours? That’s what I would want. Three days sounds about right to me. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 17:59, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

  Yes I have changed it and I advised Knight about the change in case they want to modify their vote. I haven't bothered advising Hastur cause they seems totally fine with the toxic assholtry of all users except Oxy. ShabiDOO 19:03, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

• He's like the rather demented old uncle who sits in a corner in his rocking chair muttering about the depravity of modern youth. Leave him aloneScream!! (talk) 19:36, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
• I'm extremely disappointed here too. He's way worse than that. Even so, I wouldn't want an uncle in my house talking shit about people. Unlike the normal public area, we can, here, actually do something about unpleasant people. --It's-a me, 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄 20:42, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
• Think a perma is too far. nobs needs a message/warning in the form of a short term block, not removed immediately. As stated before, he's an old coot and I'm willing to issue a message that were serious before we move in terms of banning nobs permanently, in the hopes that he'll keep his racist/sexist crap to himself. If that falls, then... Well I guess we will see how we move forward on this when it happens. Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )} 21:01, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

  Hey, I got grandkids. There's all sorts of things I wouldn't want them to learn from me. I've been humbled. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 21:05, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

• I'll say again that Rob needs to be temporarily desysoped before his block. If he can just unblock himself, this has all been a waste of time. Spud (talk) 00:34, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

  I agree with that. Bongolian (talk) 07:56, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

• I would encourage cis people to not try to go out and say “ohhhh well his transphobia isn’t THAT bad, it’s just because he’s ~uneducated~“ because that’s a load of shite if you ask me. 💖 ASELA^कुरा 💖 03:31, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

  Good. Now tell me what cis is? nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 03:37, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

  Damn that was real difficult. Took a lot of effort, can see why Rob was unable to do this himself. 💖 ASELA^कुरा 💖 03:48, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

  Thank you. I would not have known to add "gender" to it without your help. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 03:57, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

  See, this was like the second or third google result for me, and I assumed it would be the most obvious choice given the context. But if you really didn’t know what it meant, and you really couldn’t figure it out by googling, then you’re welcome I guess. On the off chance that you’re genuinely just ignorant, I would strongly advise you make the effort to actually learn about and understand transgender issues, or at the very least shut the fuck up about them until you do. Thanks very much. 💖 ASELA^कुरा 💖 05:54, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

  Well thank you. I've been sitting here pondering this now for an hour or two. I need to learn to allocate my time more appropriately. I seriously need to devote less time to studying the operations of the Central Politburo of the Communist Party of China and Central Committee (for which WP is sorely lacking, everyone's focused on the Standing Committee) and more to issues related to gender. Does that sound cynical? Perhaps. But I'm comforted in the knowledge that I'm not alone in the world. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 06:09, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

  And frankly, the link I provided makes more sense to me than the link you provided. I guess my brain isn't wired right. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 06:11, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

  I don’t care what you do or don’t spend your time researching. If you don’t understand trans issues, and if you’re genuinely just ignorant (which I gotta be honest, I still find hard to believe), then all you have to do is. Not talk about trans issues. And especially don’t go around telling people struggling with their gender to try prayer and shit like that. Please. 💖 ASELA^कुरा 💖 06:38, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

  This is the last I’m saying on the matter. Please do not expect me to engage any further because I am choosing not to. 💖 ASELA^कुरा 💖 06:39, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

  Isolating yourself would not be helpful, IMO. nobs^{Smile, and be friends..} 06:46, 4 October 2020 (UTC)