Talk:Democratic Party/Archive1

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Conservative

"The Democratic Party is a conservative political party in the United States. Its main opposition comes from the ultra-conservative Republican Party."

I died laughing. Thank you, whoever wrote this, for providing me with my daily lulz!!!!! And also, for telling the truth. Awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!! human^{be in} 04:13, 26 August 2007 (CDT)

What?

How is the democratic party conservative? --Onion <talk> 21:12, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Compared to everywhere that isn't the US. You should look at it as the rest of the world saying "hi" - David Gerard (talk) 22:51, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

He's right, you know. Name one left or liberal accomplishment of the party since the Civil Rights Acts. ħuman 03:27, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Howard Dean

was actually a New Democrat during the 90s. Supported NAFTA and the first Gulf War, fiscal centrist, etc. I suppose he does go in the progressive category since his 2004 run. Secret Squirrel (talk) 22:47, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Was last connected to the CPC, I remember. Same with Gillibrand, she was a former Blue Dog and then made a shift to the left. Osaka Sun (talk) 23:03, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

IP Block Response

Interesting that Osaka went to all that trouble to cover up the fact that he accused me of a fallacy he himself had used and I was just responding to concerning Cohen's Law, hiding the conversation, protecting the page, and instituting of an IP ban just to try and prevent people from seeing his little mistake. I'm actually surprised he didn't try archiving the discussion or removing the material, maybe he figured on waiting a day or two in hopes people wouldn't notice.

And all that to avoid addressing the substance of my points that the Democrats were the ones who controlled Congress, I suppose I should be flattered you need to go to such extremes to avoid debating me, claiming false fallacies and seeking to shut down discussion. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 18:06, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

April 15th

I fail to understand the significance of "April 15th" in the quote attributed to Ronald Reagan. Can someone explain it to me? Or maybe we could have it explained in a footnote. Corpse in the bed (talk) 08:07, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

April 15th is the deadline for filing US federal income tax returns. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 08:28, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

liberal Republicans are Ike Republicans?

Jesus, who wrote this crap? Nixon must've been a liberal Republican, and Rockefeller a communist. nobs^{One who's been there.}

"Nixon must've been a liberal Republican." Well... Osaka Sun (talk) 21:24, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

"Dead On Arrival"

Can we talk about this section please? It seems a bit overly pessimistic, after all as FCP points out Clinton actually got just as much support as Obama did...just not in the right places. I'm just as guilty as anyone of feeling doom and gloom right now, but Trump didn't flip Rust Belt voters, just barely enough of them stayed home that Trump was able to squeak on through. Remember, eighty thousand votes plus the lowest favorability rating of anyone to enter the Oval Office and he's already screwing up. Plus, his win has scared millions of Americans into action across the country. Anyone with any decency is settling in for a grueling, hard fought slog the moment the man steps into the White House. I don't think we're down and out just yet. MyNameIsMudd (talk) 03:07, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Holy fucking shit

I made a small edit amending it from far-left to center-left. Then I come back and find out much of the article has been re-written. I think they would do well to restore the Funeral Pyre and Center Cannot Hold sections. Both were relevant to what is currently going on. I'm a new poster and "Christopher" responded to me encouraging me to make an account. I don't know enough to meaningfully edit many articles, but there are no far left factions in the Democratic Party. I also wouldn't even particularly agree that any of the Progressives described as European style Social Democrats are anywhere close to actual socialists.Manicman (talk) 22:03, 2 March 2017 (UTC) Who wrote this intro?

The Democrat Demokkkrat Democratic Party is a center-left party in the United States. Widely perceived to be left-wing, it's best to think of it as a decentralized tent of far-left to center-right factions who can't agree on anything. "Democrats are divided!" has been a running for decades. Republicans have historically boasted of being a "Big Tent", while Democrats scramble to keep people on the same team from voting them down.[2][3] They can't sell their solutions to the masses because they can't close and coffee is for closers.

Democrats ruled Texas the same way they ruled the big-city north. The "Southern Democrats" were a pro-segregationist sect which in no way reflects the Democrats of today. Then came the Southern Strategy, and those same supporters switched to the Republican party. Goldwater ran in 1964, the same year the Civil Rights Act was passed—not exactly a huge time gap going on here.

When Republicans lose, they run to the right. Reagan was the product of the Goldwater Revolution, and at least in the short term it worked. The reason why it works is because it excites people and gets them out to vote, gets them to phone bank, face bank or whatever bank. (See the Eagle Forum.) The Democrats did not look to the left for answers, they ran to the middle. From '68-a ridiculous amount of time the Democrats ran to the left, mostly because they had controlled congress for so long that they thought they could do whatever they wanted. But when they lose, they will always run to the middle.

It's just a liberal stream of consciousness. Why? The FCP Foundation (talk/stalk) 13:35, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Why? Well, you autopatroled the person who made most of that disaster... Hipocrite (talk) 14:41, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

It's a good thing RationalWiki has no shortage of blame. It'd be disastrous otherwise. Cømяade FυzzчCαтPøтαтø (talk/stalk) 15:50, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

You need to point out the inherent racism in the Democratic party. The Democrats controlled blacks under the 3/5 Rule in the pre-Civil War era (a census count of 50,000 slaves counted for 30,000 constituents in a white Southern Democrat Congressional district) in the pre-Civil War era. White Democrats have always considered themselves stewards of black's wellbeing, since in their view, blacks are incapable of doing it themselves. Then the Republicans extended the vote to blacks, but Democrats will be goddamned if they let Republicans divide the relationship and control they have had over blacks since the founding of the Democratic party, so they bought them off with welfare and food stamps to keep them on the plantation. The subservient relationship between blacks and their white Democrat Masters hasn't changed much over the years, with a few bumps in the road like Reconstruction, when Republicans tried to corner blacks as a voting block, earning the GOP the undying hatred of white Democrats til this day.nobs 14:11, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

1: That's irrelevant to the shit posted above.

2: It's almost like nobs willingly ignores some major party switch in the past century. I wonder why. FuzzyCatPotato of the Shoddy Hybrid engines (talk/stalk) 14:17, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

1. It's definitely relavent to to the party's history and makeup.

2. There never was a switch in parties. Welfare and food stamps have not altered the social relation between white Democrats and blacks, keeping them dependent on their overseers. Just as the Democratic slave masters fed blacks on the plantation, so have the Democrats continued (in theory) since Lyndon Johnson and the War on Poverty. nobs 15:43, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

And I presume black Democrat representatives are just the capos of the Dem gang? oʇɐʇoԀʇɐϽʎzznℲ (talk/stalk) 15:50, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

When Republicans ended the 3/5 Rule and extended the vote to blacks, white Democrats (and some blacks) viewed this as an effort to divide the traditional social relations in Southern society, when in reality blacks and whites were economically dependent on each other. Democrats initially reacted with violence and voter suppression tactics (the KKK). Over time, as the federal government expanded and times became more prosperous, Lyndon Johndon decided to lock up blacks as a voting block in the Democratic party (respecting the principal of one-man-one-vote) once and for all, as the GOP had failed to do so after Reconstruction. Johnson ended the social political divisions the GOP created between blacks and white Democrats. nobs 16:10, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

In this sense, Trump & Johnson are uniquely alike - at war with their own party over ideology in an effort to expand it and lock up coveted voting blocks. Just as Johnson was willing to abandon bedrock party principals like segregation to win blacks back en masse, Trump is willing to dump free trade to win blue colar workers and labor unions. nobs 16:36, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Let's do a survey of contemporary racist groups in America (KKK, Neo-Nazis, Aryan Brotherhood, Race Realist, etc...) about who they voted for over the last 30 years of so, including this election, and which current political party most aligns with their views. I'm predicting Hillary, Obama, Kerry, Gore and Bill and the Democratic party in general aren't going to be ranked too high in the results. Petey Plane (talk) 16:44, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

The groups you cite, according to hate group watchdogs like the SPLC & ADL, number barely 10,000 members in the United States. And even that number may be exaggerated. So the point you rather lamely make is irrelevent. nobs`

And you tied the modern Democratic party to the historical Democratic party's relationship to the KKK, which hasn't been supportive of the Democratic party in nearly half a century, so i'm a little confused as to how my argument is lame and irrelevant, yet yours is not. The simple fact is, modern racists and "race-realists" more closely associate and self-identify with Republicans and conservatives. Petey Plane (talk) 14:55, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Bullshit. White Democrats vote Democrat to get government benefits, but they're still racist as common shit. nobs 15:46, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Wow, you've convinced me. Your argument of "Bullshit!" proves that the vast majority of Democrats are in-fact racists. Petey Plane (talk) 18:06, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

+

@nobs: Your comparison of Trump and Johnson would be a bit better if African-Americans hadn't begun voting Democratic in 1932. From the American Pageant: "One striking feature of the election (of 1932) was the beginning of a distinct shift of blacks, traditionally grateful to the Republican party of Lincoln, over to the Roosevelt camp...Beginning with the election of 1932, they became, notably in the urban centers in the North, a vital element in the Democratic Party."

But besides that, you're right about Trump and Johnson. The only question is if Trump will keep his promise of better lives for blue-collar workers. If he doesn't, then who will the Rust Belt turn to? That's what I want to know. RoninMacbeth (talk) 18:35, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes, 1932 the Democrats did do better among blacks for the first time since the Civil War. But they didn't embrace the the Democrats en bloc until 1960. African-Americans for the most remained Lincoln Republicans until 1960. The GOP was the party of Civil Rights from the Civil War til Eisenhower. FDR always opposed the GOP longstanding proposal for a federal anti-lynching law. But Eleanor Roosevelt was personally popular among blacks. nobs 19:22, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

@Petey:Learn from me. See what your bullshit talking points got you? Not a Fucking Thing! No White House. No Congress. No Senate. No Supreme Court. You got 8 measely states out of 50 where you have any influence at all. You control only four, and that ain't enough to win Electoral College, even if they were the four largest.

And to think, you were ridin' high a few years ago; the world was becoming center left progressive, remember? How did this happen? Talking bullshit, calling everybody under the goddamn sun a racist for the fun of it. Will you ever learn from your errors?

If the Democrats ever wanna be effective again and overcome the mistakes they made, they need to admit their lives are out of control and only a power higher than themselves can restore them to sanity. Show some compassion for your fellow citizens, and stop calling everybody a goddamn racist. nobs 18:56, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Why in God's name did you delete my response to you, nobs? RoninMacbeth (talk) 18:59, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Sorry. I got a new tablet and its been nothing but problems. Sorry. nobs 19:12, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘@Ronin, have you ever seen this picture? It is an object lesson in studying history. It was widely circulated upon the news of FDR's death, and seemed to express the mood of the nation upon hearing the news. Now, when I was a student of history in the Civil Rights era of the 1960s, this photo was re-circulated by media and party propagandists with new spin for a new generation: that blacks had been loyal Democrats since the New Deal. But ask anyone who was alive in 1945 and they will tell you the exact opposite: the significance of the photo was national unity, that even Republicans were shedding tears. And national healing, that Democrats, who were no friend of blacks, could touch a Republican in such an emotional way. nobs 19:56, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

"stop calling everybody a goddamn racist." Wait, didn't you just call all Democrats racist? I'm still waiting on the evidence you have of that. Also, if you'd read closely, i never called all Republicans racist, or you for that matter. I said that modern racists and racists movements more closely align with Conservatives and Republicans, and believe that Republicans (and Trump) best represent their views, of the two current political parties. Petey Plane (talk) 20:11, 3 March 2017 (UTC))

White Democrats vote Democrat to get VA or SSI benefits but call blacks the N word behind their back. They hate Republicans cause their afraid the GOP will cut their benefits back. They join in the chorus of DNC bosses calling Republicans racist to motivate blacks to get out and vote for the Democrat sugar daddys. And its easy cover for them, blaming Republicans for the racism that's been handed down in their families since Andrew Jackson. Their 'ideology' is simple: deceive blacks to get what you want and need out of them, and milk the public purse. Democrats hold these as virtues since before Andrew Jackson.

All you're reciting above with, 'modern racists and racists movements bla bla bla..." is DNC talking points to get blacks out to vote and keep blacks on the DNC plantation. Vote for me or the bogeyman is gonna getcha. nobs 20:30, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Again, still looking for some citations on most Democrats being racists. Petey Plane (talk) 04:52, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

Better yet, you present evidence other than the fewer than 10,000 members of organized racist groups that supposedly endorse Republicans. Again, your bullshit is flawed; the Aryan Brotherhood is a prison gang of felons who in most states (except for a few run by Democrats) can't vote.

Who are you gonna cite, the SPLC? Of their 917 "hate groups", of which 20% are black separatists added for balance, look at Lobelville Tennessee, for instance. You'll find two dead people constitute three "hate groups". You need better evidence for any of your claims other than the DNC or SPLC.

But you're missing my main point: the reason DNC is wallowing in the dumpster now and will continue for the foreseeable future is because of people like you exhibiting the behavior you exhibited here. Unlike Reagan & the Bush's, Trump may make the crossover Democrats to the Republican party permanent. Those voters know when they vote Democrat they are "blue collar", when the vote GOP they are "racist". They are tired of the DNC's bullshit.

And didn't a bunch of Islamophobic bigots just make Keith Ellison, the DNC's biggest fundraiser, ride the back of the bus? Ordinarily being the number one fundraiser gets you the job as DNC Chair. Not Ellison, because he is black he is held to a different standard. nobs 19:35, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

@nobs, no, I hadn't. Thanks for sharing! RoninMacbeth (talk) 20:32, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

I approve of the edit from center left party to just centrist party. They really can't be called center left at this point. It would be relevant to note that one of the main reasons they are perceived as left wing is that their rhetoric certainly is liberal.-Manicman ^{— Unsigned, by: 66.152.101.94 / talk 20:45, 13 May 2017 (UTC)}

I keep editing it to reflect this, and someone keeps deleting it. It's worth noting that the main reason the Dems are falsely perceived as left wing is because of their left wing rhetoric. Leave this edit there! ^{— Unsigned, by: 66.152.101.94 / talk 20:14, 2 June 2017 (UTC)}

Liberal v. Progressive

Yesterday I added California rep Maxine Waters to the "liberal" section. Today she was moved to the "progressive" section. I remember a similar, longer edit war happening a few months ago with the same thing, just on Kirsten Gillibrand and Kamala Harris. So in the hopes of not doing that again, I thought we should make a section for who's a liberal vs. who's a progressive, since those seem to be the categories where the lines are most blurred. Post any changes you'd like to make here, so we can hash them out before starting an edit war. ClintWayne (talk) 02:19, 30 September 2018 (UTC)ClintWayne

Shouldn't they all be in the same section of "Opportunists who pretend to care about particular ideologies/causes when it suits them"? 141.134.75.236 (talk) 02:52, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Political position

I object to describing the U.S. Democratic Party as a center-right.

The main ideology of the U.S. Democratic Party is social liberalism, and social liberalism is often classified as Centrist or Center-left ideology in Europe, except in very few areas, such as France and Sweden. (ex. Liberal Democrats (UK), Union, Progress and Democracy, Democratic Party (Italy)(De Lucia, Dario (2017). Dal PCI al PD. Imprimatur editore. "Le culture di riferimento dei politici appartenenti al Partito democratico sono: la socialdemocrazia, il cristianesimo sociale e il liberalismo sociale [The reference cultures of politicians belonging to the Democratic Party are: social democracy, social Christianity and social liberalism]."), Liberal Party of Canada, Danish Social Liberal Party, etc.)

And Europe is not the standard of global politics. liberal Democratic Party in East Asia are usually classified as leftists in their own countries, but they often tend to be more conservative than the U.S. Democrats in issues such as politics, society, culture and labor. Should we, then, call the Democratic Party of America a radical leftist party in East Asia? This doesn't make sense!

I don't think the Democratic Party of the United States is conservative from a global perspective in terms of social and cultural aspects. When we look at liberal Democratic Parties in East Asia, they are almost center-right in terms of European and American standards, but we do not classify liberal Democrats in East Asia as center-right.

In the first place, the left- and right-wing concept itself was historically very relational and applied differently depending on the period and local situation. So I'm against describing the Democratic Party of America as a center-right.--BluePink (talk) 03:43, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

As the person who pretty much restored the previous sentence, the issue with the Democratic party from a European perspective, at least speaking from my perspective is that essentially they're all over the place politically. Center-right is simply the closest position I can find when I compare them to our country's (I'm dutch) political spectrum on average in terms of the people that make up the party. The fact remains that even policy wise, Bernie Sanders, inarguably the farthest left the Democratic Party is generally willing to side with is still considered a more center-left politician here, whereas someone like Pete Buttigieg or Joe Biden (the "moderates") would be considered as a part of our de facto right party in terms of a policy perspective. (small related note: The Republican party at best would be comparable to a small far right party here) Of course, I cannot speak for how the party is perceived in Asia, in no small part because of a simple lack of knowledge of the political situation there and simply because I do not live in that area. (Also, small sidenote, could you change or edit your reference to not be a reference? They're afaik not used on talkpages and it's kinda screwy on the formatting). The Crow (talk) 21:26, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

We should consider that the political environment of each country is different. For example, the average statistic shows that racism in Europe is worse than in North America. But we do not say that Europe is more conservative than the United States. Nor is it true that the mainstream of the Republican Party is now a hard-line right, but not all Republican members are of that way. To be exact, Alt-lite like Trumpists and paleoconservative in the Republican Party have similar tendencies to the far-right in Europe. but minority of center-right politicians within the Republican Party. (For example, Arnold Schwarzenegger supports Greta Thunberg. The mainstream Les Républicains, France's center-right ot right-wing party, is negative about Greta Thunberg.) In addition, the Netherlands is a country with a fairly liberal political environment by Western European standards.--BluePink (talk) 23:33, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Let me give you another example. A few years ago, there was a party called PDP in South Korea. The party opposed the LGBT rights and was a very pro-life party, but it was classified as center-left within South Korean politics. Japan's LDP is so nationalistic that it is classified as an extreme right in Europe, but it is not classified as an extreme right in Japanese politics. What I want to say is that judging the U.S. Democratic Party by European standards is meaningless because the global political landscape itself is already quite right-leaning. Rather, the current politics of the United States and Europe are relatively less right-leaning than those of other regions.--BluePink (talk) 23:54, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

So I'm eager for Bernie Sanders to be elected president of the United States. It is the only hope to change the political landscape around the world that is now running to the Far-Right.--BluePink (talk) 00:03, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Those in backward and poor circumstances are apt to have a very social conservative concept. This, in a way, may be a natural result. Neoliberalism has been the result of this way. This is not a problem for the poor but a problem for the system. (The reason why the U.S. formed a more conservative social culture than Europe is also related to the extreme gap between the rich and the poor.)--BluePink (talk) 00:20, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Wallace

I ain't a Republican (I'm simply a Conservative), but did ya know that George Wallace was a Democrat? 2003:C3:3741:1600:E0A1:C185:51E6:E4DF (talk) 17:37, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes and? Are we going into the "bad people were Dems!" talking point? Because that's a dumb talking point. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 17:41, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

If Wallace were around today he'd be a Republican. You remember the Southern Strategy, right? — Oxyaena ^Harass 18:29, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

The view that Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton are conservative is biased.

I think they are centrists and never conservatives. Joe Biden used to be a member of the Blue Dog Coalition, but he has shifted to a similar political view since the Obama administration. After Trump's election, Biden also turned left socially, citing fair trade, not free trade. Bill and Hillary are originally members of the New Democracy Coalition, and it is very biased to see this as conservatism.--BluePink (talk) 11:43, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

The United States is outwardly hegemonic, but internally it is not such a conservative country. The United States is a country of diversity, and there are many more advanced countries that are more conservative than the United States internationally. Viewing Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton as conservatives is a view that Democrats do not recognize as a social liberal(=center-left) party, a narrative that is not so objective.--BluePink (talk) 11:46, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Despite the considerable differences in social culture and political environment in each country, it is error-prone to match European political standards to American political standards. Asians face far more blatant racism in Europe than in the United States.(=This means that Europe is not always more liberal than the United States, and rather, there are even cases where Europe is more conservative than the United States.)--BluePink (talk) 11:49, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Even Donald Trump not say he opposes homosexuality, but Moon Jae-in is ever say he opposes homosexuality.# However, while the media and academia call Donald Trump a conservative and even a far-right, Moon Jae-in is not called a conservative. This is because Moon Jae-in tries to lead South Korean society, which has a Ultra-Conservative Wingnut culture, to a relatively liberal direction, but Donald Trump is aiming for reactionary. (But still, South Korea is much more very very conservative than the United States.)--BluePink (talk) 12:09, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘From my perspective, Biden is absolutely the epitome of "centrist" in the Democratic party, insofar as we define centrist within the boundaries of the Democratic party. To me this seems obvious, given his rather sharp turn when it comes to Black Lives Matters after the protests arose within the US. Within the US itself, he edges to the center-left end of the spectrum, and on the international stage of politics, he's a firmly moderate-right candidate. The section you take issue with was actually subject of a short edit dispute which was resolved without much conversation (mostly since I got bored) and was inserted by a driveby BoN, then a short dispute between me and Oxy after I reverted those changes in particular and then reinserted in a different way by the BoN. I'll freely admit to not knowing a lot about Clinton though, although from what I've seen and read, I do think that calling them conservatives is a stretch, even when defining them in the limits of the Dems. Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )} 13:38, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Centrist stupidity! Stop defending liberals!

Y'all keep removing it from the "centrist stupidity " category. The Democratic party is not left wing. Nor it is center-left. It is not even REMOTELY left. it is center-right to right-wing. Sure, it may have social liberal policies, but leftism and rightism is based on economics, not social views. Therefore, the Democratic Party is center-right to right wing. This liberal stupidity shouldn't be unmentioned so it should be in the category Centrist stupidity. Catgrrl37-0 (talk) 16:04, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Last time I checked, AOC and the Squad, who are known for their progressive (by international standards) economic policies, are Democrats. Why would a conservative party allow members that are far more left-wing to gain any sort of prominence? Why would a conservative party supported by a conservative base allow Bernie Sanders to nearly become their presidential candidate for two consecutive elections? How could he be competitive enough to be number 2? Finally, left-vs-right isn't based on economics alone. It's based on conceptions of society and how and what the government should do regarding it. As such, both economic and social issues are part of the left-right spectrum. The Democratic party may have many centrist members, but it is still a center-left party. IveBeenFrank (talk) 16:11, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Admittedly by European standards the Dems are probably right of centre but by the criteria of their own country they are considerably left of centre. Scream!! (talk) 16:14, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

@IveBeenFrank The Progressive Caucus is still a minority faction within the Democratic Party. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 16:25, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't know, 90 out of 233 seats is nothing to sneeze at. IveBeenFrank (talk) 16:33, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

@IveBeenFrank Firstly, I'm not saying they're a tiny minority, they aren't. But secondly, they don't really have the clout for more hardline progressive policies at the moment. Because it isn't just about how many people you have on your side, it's also about how much political and social capital you have. That's growing, but isn't really at the point where they could go toe-to-toe with the more right-wing Dems like Pelosi or Schumer. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 16:40, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

That's true. But the fact that they even have the amount of clout to openly suggest those policies makes it clear that the Democratic party can't be right wing. The fact that they exist in such numbers makes it clear that the Democratic party can't be right-wing. I'm not saying that you think the party is right-wing, but merely in context to the OP. IveBeenFrank (talk) 16:43, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ The Dems as a party are liberals, not leftists. The base of the Democratic Party isn't right wing for sure, but the leadership most definitely is. — Oxyaena ^Harass 16:49, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Wow, I had no idea Bernie and the Squad were right-wing. Twodots (talk) 17:09, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Don't you know? They actually want a state to exist!!! How more right-wing can you get!!!!oneone!! (obvious sarcasm) IveBeenFrank (talk) 17:11, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

What you guys are all forgetting is that the Democratic party is a big-tent party with numerous factions. The centrist one, which would be called center right in most countries, is currently in power, dominating the congressional leadership and executive parts of the party. The left of center faction, while growing, is not the one in charge. There are also other groups outside this duopoly. Also, "the democratic party is a left wing party because it has left-wingers in it" displays such a farcical ignorance of American politics I don't think I can address it.-Flandres (talk) 17:15, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Flandres is correct here. Each of the major parties is made up of multiple factions which are in a loose alignment with each other, and each is constantly vying for overall control of the party proper. Now, I do not agree with the classification of the Dems as right wing proper, mainly because even the Blue Dogs aren't that far right. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 17:21, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

GC, I was not implying they are fundamentally right wing-they are centrists in the context of the society from which they emerged, and that is what matters. That they are centrer right internationally is a mere byproduct of the differing evolution of various nations. Oh, and twodots-Oxy said the party leadership was right wing. Sanders is NOT the "party leadership." Please read.-Flandres (talk) 17:26, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Flandres, the Democratic party has to be at least somewhat left-wing if it has a significant number of progressives in it with a significant amount of influence. If the House Liberty Caucus had 90 members instead of 7, it and its policies would be a major player in the Republican Party. As a result, libertarian and Tea-Party ideas would infect the discourse, and would no longer be ignored. As a result, the party would shift somewhat in that direction, just because the majority of the discourse is directed towards these new ideas. If the Democratic party was solidly conservative, it's ranking members wouldn't allow such an ideologically different group to gain such power and command such attention. IveBeenFrank (talk) 17:35, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

They are centrists who tolerate the left because it is electorally convenient. The party is somewhat left wing by low, low, American standards, but it is still dominated by centrists in leadership positions and its policies tend to be centrist. You don't really understand how political parties are run, do you? Also, I WAS NOT FUCKING SAYING THEY ARE CONSERVATIVE. Big Tent Centrist. B I G T E N T C E N T R I S T.-Flandres (talk) 17:40, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

@Flandres I apologize for the implication, I was disagreeing the the original poster's assessment and should have said as such. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 18:06, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure of that. While they may have tolerated the radicals for a little while, the whole 2020 election was a big battle between leftists and centrists. Now especially, Team Biden has been fighting pretty hard against the left, especially regarding cabinet appointments. The fight only seems to be scaling up in intensity. I take umbrage with you saying I don't understand how political parties are run. Trump's period of the Republican Party has been one of absolute, iron control. He's been able to gain control and maintain it through the liberal use of insults and power, forcing Republican politicians to toe his newly-created party line. He was able to do this from his party's failure to do just this, and force Trump out of the primaries and push to drain his influence. This failure corresponds with Biden's current dilemma regarding the left. IveBeenFrank (talk) 18:15, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

@IveBeenFrank It's a bit more complex than that. Trump gained power, made alliances, and then chose how to wield that clout. But right now, the Progressives don't have as much clout as the Blue Dog democrats. Additionally, both the Blue Dogs and the progressives weild power in a different manner than Trump, since they have different priorities and aligned interests. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 18:20, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Frank, did you just unironically imply the Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump campaigns/movements are somehow equivalent in terms of extremist radicalism?-Flandres (talk) 22:03, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

No, they're not equivalent. Politics isn't physics; everything doesn't balance out. Nonetheless, many of the same base values and principles attracted people to Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump: the belief that elites had control over government, that they as workers were being exploited, that the mass media sought to suppress and control them, and that their leader would change this by advocating for them. The greatest difference between the two groups comes down to their leaders: one is a blundering megalomaniac, and the other is a well-meaning, sane, generally kind individual. That isn't to say that without Sanders, everyone who supports or supported him would turn to Trump, but merely that these movements are caused by reactions to current events and political balances on different sides of the political spectrum. IveBeenFrank (talk) 22:35, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Yes, populism tends to appeal well to disaffected and marginalized people. Shocker. — Oxyaena ^Harass 15:53, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

@Catgrrl37-0 Read the bloody category description. Centrist stupidity refers to hacks who appeal to "centrists" but practically espouse pseudoscience, bunk ideas or just are far morer leaning towards one end of the spectrum that they're practically a conservative or a leftist. The Democratic Party isn't "centrist stupidity" by the categories own description. The case for tagging them as centrist is one you could make, but I'd reserve that more for the more right leaning members of the Dems and the more left leaning members of the Republicans rather than the whole party. The alignment of centrism on the political spectrum is relative after all. What is considered "centrist" in my country is considered to be somewhere around Warrens political position in the US (so firmly in the progressive wing although not as stupidly hardlining as Bernie or AOC and as a result relatively left). Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )} 21:51, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

You're just another liberal. I'm not listening to you. Catgrrl37-0 (talk) 22:18, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Not listening to people with differing points of view from yours might be the problem here. Knight Commander^{In Service}_{To Her}^Goatness 22:21, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

I mean @Catgrrl37-0, you're basically admitting to being a political fundamentalist akin to a kid putting their fingers in their ears and screaming "LA-LA-LA-LA-LA, I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!1!" Knight Commander^{In Service}_{To Her}^Goatness 22:33, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

...apparently saying "the category description doesn't match what you're trying to add" is now liberal...? Whatever. Didn't expect much else as a response. Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )} 10:29, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Welp, looks like we've got ourselves yet another far-left wannabe revolutionary who alienates liberals and/or centrists who at least somewhat agree with them. Oh joy. --Goatspeed. _{Happy Holidays!}🎄CircularRasoning🎄^{Prototype lab} 22:49, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

I disagree with the view that the Democratic Party is a centrist party. The Democratic Party is a center-left big tent. Social liberalism is also a center-left ideology, and the AOC, which supports 'defund the police' and 'modern monetary theory', is also very radical in European standards. Joe Biden was also more conservative in the past, but more social liberal now.--Umaru16 (talk) 15:41, 25 December 2020 (UTC)