RationalWiki:Chicken coop/Archive137

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Luigifan wants to talk about mass shootings and gas chambers for people he doesn't like[edit]

So, yesterday I started a Saloon Bar topic about the unjust execution of Marcellus Williams because I was frustrated that someone was killed without due process. Luigifan then hijacked my topic with completely unacceptable rhetoric. In his first post, he said "If we were to be as gung-ho about capital punishment as Republicans seem to want us to be, we'd be shoving Trump and everyone who stormed the Capitol on his behalf into a gas chamber." Note: he didn't frame this as a death penalty thing. He specifically wanted to talk about putting them into gas chambers. That rhetoric and the fact that my topic bore no relation to Trump, J6, or fucking gas chambers, indicates strongly that Luigifan just saw an opportunity to jump in with this kind of language. His plausible deniability language that comes afterwards rings hollow.

Then he decided to say "then taking a machine gun to their convention and mowing all the conservative bastards down would be heroic" in some kind of fucked-up hypothetical. Two sentences later he used the phrase, "taking a machine gun to the Republican convention and mowing all the conservative bastards down." All of this was, keep in mind, in a paragraph that was meant to forestall any "'WTF' reactions and whales".

When I understandably objected on his talkpage, Luigifan said "The thing about "Godzilla Threshold" solutions is that, while they might be cathartic, they don't tend to make your situation all that much better". Yes, he specifically referred to these scenarios as "cathartic." Then he decided to say, "Catharsis often has to take a backseat to pragmatism, and in pragmatic terms, I agree..." Again, he's referring to his violent hypotheticals as "catharsis". I shouldn't even have to explain why that's fucked up ideation even with his blustering about how he'd totally never do it.

Luigifan has also been reprimanded for making "go into a volcano" comments when blocking people, wishing COVID upon people he doesn't like, and for saying that people he doesn't like "really would be better off dead". Oh, and then again, here. He also tried to make a vague suicide threat when an ATIM case wasn't going his way.

The pattern is clear. Luigifan frequently wishes death upon people he doesn't like, and now he's progressed in that pattern by visualizing ways in which those people could be killed. He hijacked an unrelated Bar post to do it, so great was his desire to get that visualization out there. This is not the kind of conduct Rationalwiki should allow, and this is not the kind of user who belongs here. If we fail to take action here, it would be an indictment of our community. I'd accept another pi-month block as a bare minimum, but I want it remembered that the last one clearly didn't work. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 15:17, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

It's something that I struggle with from time to time, and I don't like it about myself. I've been wanting to get it off my chest for a while, and I've been struggling to think of a good way to broach the subject. I'm not at all violent IRL, but I do tend to get enraged by people treating others like garbage. The "in pragmatic terms, I agree" meant that I was agreeing with you — that even if it seems like a quick and easy solution, mass murder is still wrong and it doesn't actually solve anything, hence why I am firmly against it in practice. Just because something is cathartic doesn't mean it should actually be done. And it wouldn't even be all that cathartic in practice… I'd be as horrified as anyone else if it really had to come to that, because, again, mass murder is mass murder. I strongly dislike mass murder. Luigifan18 (talk) 15:33, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
I also did frame the gas chamber thing in the context of capital punishment with the "if we were gung-ho about capital punishment" remark, i.e. not gassing people for shits and giggles Nazi-style — due process would still be required. And that still has all the attendant problems of capital punishment, such as the impossibility of revoking the sentence in the circumstance of the condemned later being exonerated. I thought that would be clear from the context of the topic I brought it up in, but I guess not… Luigifan18 (talk) 16:07, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
You shouldn't even be fucking talking about gassing people like that. You use all this fucking explicit language for no fucking reason. You want to make a point about capital punishment? Sure, go ahead. But don't you fucking dare try to defend talking about putting your enemies into fucking gas chambers or committing a mass shooting. You brought that shit up out of nowhere, so don't be surprised that your efforts to take it back aren't working. You did the same shit in the last ATIM case with you. You made a suicide threat that was just vague enough for you to try and back it off when people called you on your bullshit. I'm not buying it this time. You have a problem with violent fantasies. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 16:18, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
Yes, the violent fantasies are a problem, I don't like that I have them, and I would really prefer it if we could convince all the hateful people that their worldview is bad and doesn't really help to make their lives any better. I also have problems with not properly thinking through the implications of what I say; the only reason I brought up gas chambers specifically was as an irony-laden jab at the Nazis for their cruelty. The stuff I talked about is, as you said, fucked-up hypotheticals for nightmarish worst-case scenarios. It is not something that I actually support, and it shouldn't even be on the table at all. The main point I was trying to make is that stooping to the Nazis' level, even if it's for the sake of stopping them, would be a very bad thing to do (which is what I was saying in that "two sentences later" you brought up; I was using understatement to make the point that shooting up a Republican convention would not be heroic — it would be a ghastly, awful, terrible thing to do). I'm sorry that I scared everyone; I just wanted to talk about some dark and disturbing thoughts that I struggle with. Luigifan18 (talk) 16:26, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
"I don't like that I have them"? Do you actually find yourself having violent fantasies, Luigifan? Ephrom (talk) 21:01, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
It happens occasionally, especially when I hear about innocent people being treated like trash, and especially when the reasons for that mistreatment are petty (that seriously pisses me off). I don't ever act on them, and I very rarely talk about them, because seriously, those dark thoughts of mine are sick (though I also stay the hell way from alcohol and other inhibition looseners, just to be on the safe side). If Freud is to be believed, such dark, disturbing, and destructive fantasies are not exactly uncommon — I think he referred to it as "call of the void". I figured that the topic about the Missouri man getting executed because of a Republican governor being a bloodthirsty dickwad was a chance to safely vent a little bit. (In hindsight, I should have prefaced what I said with the fact that treasonWikipedia has historically been a capital crime, to make it clearer that I was trash-talking about Republican hypocrisy rather than proposing anything that should actually be done to them. Like I said earlier, one of the big problems with capital punishment is that you can't take it back if you find out that it was unwarranted after it's been done. At least someone in prison for life can be released and compensated.) Luigifan18 (talk) 17:12, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
Here's what bothers me: You say you "rarely talk about them" and yet Chef was able to compile nine examples (assuming I counted right) of you mentioning them on this wiki alone in the past few months. You say it "happens occasionally," but either you're being very generous with a word that implies them to be infrequent, or you are misleading us in some way. Ephrom (talk) 21:20, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
Luigifan, for your sake, I'd suggest taking a break from the internet. Carthage (talk) 17:22, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
Most of the examples cited were from several months ago, if not a year or two. But yes, sometimes it does slip out a bit more frequently than I'd like. Luigifan18 (talk) 17:27, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
This coop reminds me a bit of Oxyaena. The Wiki is clearly not a healthy place for him. GeeJayKWhere all evil dwells Where every lie is true 17:47, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
I don't know the details of what happened with Oxyaena — it was before I found this site — but I love RationalWiki and its community, I've learned a lot in my time here, and I'm ashamed that my behavior reflected badly on this site and its inhabitants. I was ultimately trying to make a point about Republican hypocrisy, the pitfalls of capital punishment, and the importance of restraint even when dealing with the intolerant-but-otherwise-civil (as seen in Karl Popper's full paradox of tolerance speech). We saw an example of a Republican being willing to make a mess of due process to end the life of someone in his outgroup just because they did something naughty, but when people in the Republican ingroup engage in outlandishly naughty stuff like treason, suddenly there's wailing and grinding of teeth when prison sentences — not death, prison sentences — are put on the table. If this sort of thing happened in certain other countries that don't give a crap about human rights, the rioters' heads and/or torsos would be mulch by now. Do I think that the January 6th rioters should be put to death? No. A lot of them got suckered into that mess by Trump's smooth-talking. And even for Trump himself, I have serious reservations about the death penalty — namely that it's an ugly side of the legal system and it could make Trump into a martyr. It was foolish of me to make wisecracks about gas chambers, I'll give you that, but all I really wanted to say was that the Missouri execution is just another entry on the list of Republican malicious and hypocritical acts, and that the reality-based community (like, say, RationalWiki) is better than those bloodthirsty monsters and should continue to be better. Again, I'm sorry that I crossed the line of good taste, and I'll do my best not to let the call of the void drive me to say something stupid again. Luigifan18 (talk) 18:09, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
Those examples from several months ago are to establish that there is a pattern. The relevant comments are from today. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 18:00, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
Yeah, that I sometimes say things that I think are just interesting or humorous and then I'm shocked and horrified when people rightfully call me out for saying something hurtful and offensive. And using the term "catharsis" when my attitude personally to the hypothetical situation coming up would be sadness that things didn't turn out more favorably and less bloodily… yeah, that was flat-out stupid. It's kinda… part of having autism. Luigifan18 (talk) 18:19, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
Also, Luigi was blocked for three months. Of course that those would be old. Are the video with the country music telling people to kill themselves and that "snark" claiming that conservatives reproducing is a bad thing on the list? GeeJayKWhere all evil dwells Where every lie is true 18:01, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
Yeah, Luigifan is one of those users who got blocked for 3 months and then came back even worse. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 18:22, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
The issue here is that others have publicaly expressed desire for certain persons to be murdered in the SB. I accuse... myself for example - they have at least twice expressed a firm desire to see Putin murdered. And others indirectly expressed desires for this too. Okay, suspect nobody here is going to defend Czar Vlad the bloody but the principle is the same.
Now, some of the above examples are ambigious, at least one wasn't and crossed the line in my POV. Part of my concern here is the optics of the situation - that RW is an open online environment and as a known 'librul hangout' there shall be unsympathetic eyes reading all this. Some will be nutpicking for 'shit libruls say' so they can argue about 'Liberal Fascism' but there shall be others who are trying to get to understand 'how They tick' and will be getting a bad view which might help drive them into the former's camp. So simply from a PR POV I would like the comments turned down, and if you are going to make a comparison or something make it less ambigious.
I am not going to call for anything right now but I do think the user does need to stop the doomscrolling, get a hobby or something to help break out of the cycle. Or get outside more. Being constantly swamped by Bad News about shit you can't do anything about it is never healthy, esp in these times [I personally ration my intake]. KarmaPolice (talk) 18:05, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
Optics is a big part of my concern as well. The Saloon Bar is the main place where people see and interact with this wiki's editors. Do we want people to come in from the internet and see a user making comments like "taking a machine gun to their convention and mowing all the conservative bastards down would be heroic?" Is that how we want RW to be represented? Is that how we want our community to be represented? Do we want people from around the internet to see that and then watch us take no action against the user who said these things? Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 18:20, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
I said it would be heroic if they were currently in the middle of committing genocide (in hindsight, I should have said "if and only if" — the idea being that violence would be the last-resort option after all other means of curtailing fascism have failed, and not to be employed if the problem can be resolved without bloodshed). Since they're not doing that, killing them would be horrible (honestly, I should have said that outright instead of making an understatement). Now, should I have talked about shooting people like it was an option that was currently under consideration at all? No, I shouldn't. I mistakenly thought it would be a good idea to vent those horrible thoughts in the form of highlighting Republican hypocrisy, and not in, say, acknowledging how awful they are and asking for help in coming up with healthier alternatives for my righteous anger at the atrocious behavior of bigots and bullies (or just not bringing it up at all). Still, context is important… not that people who want to use my words against RationalWiki would care about that, though. Like I said, I was really bloody foolish here. Luigifan18 (talk) 18:32, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
I agree that you weren't calling for the murder of Republicans. What you have, my friend, is a violent case of foot in mouth syndrome. Perhaps go outside, smell the ashes, and walk through the smog-filled air for a bit? Carthage (talk) 18:34, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
I shouldn't have to fucking see language like that under a post I made in the Bar. I was hoping to start a conversation, not have it derailed by violent imagery of mass shootings and gas chambers. That's the issue. You don't know how to watch your fucking mouth, and you let these bullshit fantasies you have spill out. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 18:49, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
I agree, it was wrong of me to derail your topic, especially with such a ghastly subject. I've half-jokingly referred to myself in the past as "having about as much respect for the current line of conversation as Genghis Khan did for the concept of monogamy", but this was bad even for me. If I really wanted to talk about my dark and disturbing thoughts and how to deal with them, I should have done so in a separate topic. I'm sincerely sorry. Luigifan18 (talk) 19:00, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
We're a little past apologies, I think. Carthage (talk) 19:03, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
I generally agree with DuceMoosolini here, and I appreciate that Luigifan is being frank about the issue and not trying to minimize or obscure it. If one lives in a functioning democracy and one believes in democratic principles, one shouldn't be engaging in or advocating for non-self-defensive violence.
I'm currently reading journalist Elle Reeve's book Blackpilled, which is about figures within the alt-right and racialists. Upon beginning the book, I found that it was not exactly as I expected. Reeve's backstory in the introduction is that she and her family were stalked by a neighbor in rural Tennessee for a substantial part of her childhood. That experience in a way explains her journalism career, her antipathy towards the alt-right and her wanting to understand them. Her journalism is so good because she is able to relate to the alt-right figures as humans without endorsing their views. Some of the past and current alt-right figures trusted her enough that they gave her access that they did not give to other journalists (including access to private emails and texts). Bongolian (talk) 19:06, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
This is not the place to call for violence against reactionaries. The fact we continue to have this discussion over and over again shows that this user is not worth the return upon investment. This is only gonna happen again. Carthage (talk) 20:03, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
Actually calling for violence was not my intention; I explicitly said that being violent would be an overreaction. I was simply trying to make a point about Republican hypocrisy, I worded it poorly, and then my attempts to clarify the point just dug me in deeper. Honestly, I'm incredibly embarrassed and worried at how this is going... Luigifan18 (talk) 20:29, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
"If I really wanted to talk about my dark and disturbing thoughts and how to deal with them, I should have done so in a separate topic." This type of post is completely off-topic for RationalWiki and should never be done here. That's Duce's core point here, that we shouldn't have to be subject to this kind of post, ever, on this platform. —cosmikdebris talk stalk 20:05, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
I think a general principle was established with Machina; 'RW is not your therapist'. But the thing is, did anyone actually point this out before now? KarmaPolice (talk) 20:11, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

The thing is, we've already had this conversation before, in the ATIM discussion that led to Luigifan getting permanently sysoprevoked. He made incredibly callous comments towards a troll saying they don't deserve functional lungs or whatever. That was almost two years ago, and despite his constant promises to improve he's kept on reoffending over and over again with the same excuses every time. At some point, we have to break the cycle, and I don't believe Luigifan18 is really capable of doing so. Plutocow (talk) 20:29, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

I am honestly trying to be better, but it's... not always easy. In hindsight, I could and should have worded my remark very differently to get my actual point across without sounding like a lunatic, and I'll make sure to do so going forward. Luigifan18 (talk) 20:32, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
You've been saying this crap for two years. Will you ever actually mean it? Plutocow (talk) 20:35, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
I do actually mean it, every time. Unfortunately, making actual improvements to one's behavior can be difficult, especially when one is not thinking clearly at the moment due to fatigue or haste or whatever. I'm still working on it, and I'm honestly rather humiliated that I've slipped up again. Luigifan18 (talk) 20:41, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
So do you have any actual plan for changing? Or are you admitting that we're just going to be here again in a couple months and we're wasting all this time on you? Not saying that you want massive groups of people to die isn't exactly difficult. Plutocow (talk) 20:54, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
Well, the plan right now is to avoid using that kind of vicious and hurtful language and to take more time to think through things that I want to say before I actually say them. This whole mess could have easily been avoided if I'd said something like "those Republicans sure are hypocritical for overruling due process to execute people in their outgroup and being dead silent about treason being a capital crime after the Jan 6 riot" instead of that shit about putting Trump and his supporters in a gas chamber. D'oh! I really can't apologize enough for how much of a fool I've made of myself. Luigifan18 (talk) 21:05, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
No, you really can't. Plutocow (talk) 21:07, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
Haven't we wasted enough time? Carthage (talk) 21:12, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
...Should I be worried about that remark? Like you said earlier, what I did wasn't malicious in any way; I just put my foot in my mouth, and my efforts at disclaimers clearly didn't help. The threat of Project 2025 has me incredibly stressed, but that's no excuse for remarks that could easily be construed as psychopathic. I'll make stronger efforts to avoid embarrassing myself and everyone else here going forward. Again, I'm sorry. Luigifan18 (talk) 21:23, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
For the record, I'd back the notion on banning Luigifan on the basis of general community health for both the site and himself. The way he's engaging with the community is not healthy for himself if it keeps crossing the line. If editing RW causes Luigifan this much personal stress and a seeming non-stop series of "Luigifan said something that crosses several lines of acceptable conduct", editing here might not be a good idea in the first place. We can't keep excusing these sorts of things forever; Oxy jumps to mind as a similar editor where in the end being banned proved to be better for both parties involved. I know there's nothing in the Community Standards that points to this, but it ought to be considered. RW editors can keep trying to correct every single thing, but all that does is waste editor time and patience. -- Techpriest (talk) 22:02, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
Maybe I do need to back away from the Saloon Bar for a while, but I really love RationalWiki, I'm trying to do my best for it, and I don't want to leave it behind. It's not RationalWiki that's causing me stress, it's the current political climate. I'd say more about the good RationalWiki has done for my life (not least of which is finally kicking me out of my "Kevin Trudeau is teh awesomez!" phase... no, really, look up my talk page history on Wikipedia, it's a bit cringeworthy to me now), but I'm currently busy cleaning the Technocracy article up to the site's standards (sorry, @KarmaPolice, but that is, uh, not how a RationalWiki article is typically formatted), and I've got Jetpack Joyride and Gems of War to play and trash to collect and put out tonight. Luigifan18 (talk) 22:09, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
There are even anarchists who reject retributive violence. If "bomb-throwing anarchists" can explicitly reject violence, so can you. Granted, that doesn't mean there isn't a right to self defense, I would go as far as to include communal self defense in that portfolio (something a growing number of queer people agree with me on, which honestly says quite a bit about the state of our "functional democracy"), but gas chambers and mass shootings ain't that, chief. Carthage (talk) 22:18, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
Agreed, and I was never in favor of that from the start; I put my foot in my mouth talking about what might be necessary in a worst-case scenario, not what ought to be done now. Like I said, I desperately hope that we never end up in the sort of Handmaid's Tale/Vichy France nightmare world where violence is necessary to bring democracy back from the dead; that would indicate that humanity has grievously failed as a species basically everything has gone terribly wrong. Oh, and I do favor the "communal self-defense" model myself. My stance is, well, see the paradox of tolerance: violence and force may be a necessary last resort to ensure that tolerance and justice survive, but they should be avoided while reason (or at least less drastic means of curtailing the intolerant) can prevail. And even then, violence should be limited to the extent that is necessary to protect those who are at risk of being harmed by the intolerant (so a mass shooting would be overkill, and that would be bad). Luigifan18 (talk) 22:42, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ (EC) For the record, I don't think that most people are glad to permaban you, Luigi, since you're not a troll, and you actually do some good grammar fixes. In the recent past, I think the only non-trolls we've banned were Neiltyson1fan, for doxxing, Raven, for being extremely disruptive, and (maybe) that tankie dude that wanted to subvert the whole wiki. Yes, I think you're better than them. But I don't know if that's enough. The problem is, we've enabled you for two years, and we're tired of excuses and empty promises. The best thing that I can think for now is to allow if to post on your own talk page, so maybe (maybe) you can appeal in the future, just like they do on Wikipedia. But even then I can see you abusing this and using your talk page as a blog, so I'm not sure we should do this. Nonetheless, we've got an entire week to discuss it, so maybe this is your best chance. GeeJayKWhere all evil dwells Where every lie is true 22:59, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

…How would that even work? How would I show maturity? I do hate making promises I can't keep, and I am trying to do better. I slipped up here in part because I wasn't expecting what I said to be taken so badly; I thought I made it clear that I did not endorse violence against Republicans except in a total worst-case scenario (like, say, the situation that France was in after being conquered by Germany in WWII), that we're still a far ways away from said worst-case scenario and have plenty of opportunity to prevent it through means that involve no bloodshed, that we should stick to our principles of rationalism and fairness and not stoop to the level of Nazis, etc…. but apparently I was wrong. My initial attempts to explain myself didn't really help ("cathartic" was completely the wrong word to use, and what I meant was that some people who aren't quite right in the head to begin with might find slaughter to be cathartic; I'm definitely not one of them), but… I honestly meant no harm to RationalWiki. I just wanted to say something about the Republicans' cavalier, double-standard-applying attitude towards capital punishment and that their attitude is deplorable. I don't have any clue how I could appeal a ban that doesn't give me the chance to show that I've grown beyond the circumstances that warranted it. I really don't want to go away from RationalWiki or abandon my big project here, and I'm going to put every possible effort into not repeating the mistake that I made this morning, so please have a bit of mercy. Luigifan18 (talk) 23:21, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
That you weren't expecting our negative response to "then taking a machine gun to their convention and mowing all the conservative bastards down would be heroic" after you've previously received negative responses to milder rhetoric indicates strongly that you won't be able to change. Also saying "I thought I made it clear... but apparently I was wrong" just strikes me as passive-aggressive. It's the same deal with your suicide threat. You're verbally backpedaling to get us to lay off you, but you don't actually think you did anything that bad. Not really. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 23:38, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
The synopsis of Oxyaena is that she did make valuable contributions, but had repeated problems interacting with people (the details don't really matter here). She was given multiple blocks over time for this behavior. Eventually she realized that RW was not only the place where she vented her problems but was at least partly the cause of them. She requested that she be permabanned from RW, and the mob agreed with no hard feelings that I'm aware of. This is the only case that I'm aware of of a voluntary permaban on RW.
As stated above, RW is not your therapist, and repeated apologies are not helping. You should take action for your own sake:
  • If you live in the United States, mental health is covered by the ACA (Obamacare), so there shouldn't be any financial reason to avoid mental health therapy.
  • Try to figure out what is causing this (reading the news, gaming or whatever) and either stop or severely limit whatever is causing the problem.
  • Get out in nature even if it's just a city park.
Bongolian (talk) 23:50, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
(EC) To be quite honest, saying that you would support violence in this hypothetical, highly unlikely scenario almost makes me think that you were somehow virtue signalling by showing how progressive you are. GeeJayKWhere all evil dwells Where every lie is true 23:51, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
I didn't intend any passive-aggressiveness; only an admission that I was horribly careless with my words and came across as being far more malignant than I intended. The "mowing the conservative bastards down would be heroic" statement was only intended to refer to something like a Vichy France scenario — a state of actual war. The very next thing I said was that in a situation like what we're in now, such ruthless and bloodthirsty behavior is unacceptable; indeed, what I meant was that in any situation short of "kill or be killed", there is no excuse for massive slaughter, but I was stupid and thought I could get that across with an understatement. I should have either made that perfectly, 100% clear, with no glibness or levity whatsoever, or not made my comments about taking a machine gun to the Republican convention at all; the way I explained myself is frankly terrible. I shouldn't have said the things I said, and at the end of the day, there is little excuse for it. I'll keep a lid on my dark thoughts going forward. I'm genuinely sorry about the mess.
Oh, and I already do see a behaviorist/therapist; I'll be talking with her next Tuesday, and I may very well bring this up. (Heck, I already regularly report to her on my chores and sleeping habits, and I may have to mention this mess I'm in as a reason why I might lose sleep tonight.) Honestly, I think that the cause of this is… just that I have anxiety issues and I've always despised injustice. Hopefully I'll be able to calm down after Kamala wins the election and Trump is thrown in jail. Luigifan18 (talk) 23:57, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
You know, usually they take away shovels. Carthage (talk) 00:00, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
I'm not really sure what that means… Anyways, what I said sounded a lot better in my head, because I did try to clarify my statement to show that I'm not actually calling for violence against Republicans, especially not of the gas chamber or machine gun variety. I was legitimately caught off-guard by the negative reaction… now I just want to move on and make sure I never say anything that crazy again. Luigifan18 (talk) 14:29, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Luigifan18 said something that crosses several lines of acceptable conduct[edit]

It’s been 24 hours. Per RW:CS, votes to block/ban require a two thirds majority. Also remember that any eligible voter (an account with 75 edits, etc.) can open policy and penalty votes. BoNs are not eligible voters. — Unsigned, by: Cosmikdebris / talk / contribs

This vote has been closed. Please do not add, remove or change votes.
The result of this vote was: Luigifan18 is permabanned with a 21-3 majority (87.5%). All other votes are rendered moot.

Ban for π days[edit]

Yes[edit]

  1. Carthage (talk) 15:27, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
  2. Scream!! (talk) 16:51, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
  3. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 18:31, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
  4. They crossed a line repeatedly, and there has to be a price for this. KarmaPolice (talk) 22:06, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
  5. -- Techpriest (talk) 14:44, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

No[edit]

  1. Seriously? Monet Ye 15:38, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
    The idea is to vote for all ban options in case the others fail. Carthage (talk) 15:54, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
  2. Bongolian (talk) 14:58, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
  3. No. Again, he really hasn't learned from last ban (especially after going immediately on a Temper Tantrum on the first day after he came back..). Pi days won't suffice anymore. How many times hasn't he been in trouble over the past 2 years? Arcadium Trancefer (talk) 17:04, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
    The last ban and this incident are two completely different things. And I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "temper tantrum", unless you mean the ref note that Plutocow removed (and that I would have removed myself if he didn't beat me to it, because I thought it over after the fact and decided that it wasn't actually relevant to the article). Luigifan18 (talk) 17:12, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Goat[edit]

  1. Dunno why this is even a thing, given that it's shorter than the length of a coop Plutocow (talk) 18:05, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Ban for π weeks[edit]

Yes[edit]

  1. Carthage (talk) 15:27, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
  2. Yeah, I'd have to say I might deserve this, at least from the Saloon Bar. I've gotta admit, what I said was really freaking dumb. I didn't mean any harm by it, but wow, was my choice of words bad. I'll strive to avoid repeating mistakes like this again in the future. (And yes, I can learn from my mistakes, I just don't always generalize from one thing to another. Go look, I haven't issued any death threats to trolls after being sysoprevoked…) Luigifan18 (talk) 15:34, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
  3. Scream!! (talk) 16:51, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
  4. In case something stronger doesn't pass. Plutocow (talk) 18:05, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
  5. I want the bigger blocks to pass, but just in case. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 18:31, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
  6. They crossed a line repeatedly and there has to be a price to this. KarmaPolice (talk) 22:07, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
    No argument there… Luigifan18 (talk) 14:13, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
  7. Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 07:05, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
  8. -- Techpriest (talk) 14:44, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

No[edit]

  1. Didn‘t work last time. Monet Ye 15:39, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
  2. Bongolian (talk) 14:59, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
  3. I agree with Monet here. Arcadium Trancefer (talk) 17:05, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Goat[edit]

Ban for π months[edit]

Yes[edit]

  1. Carthage (talk) 15:26, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
  2. Minimum. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 15:55, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
  3. Scream!! (talk) 16:51, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
  4. Plutocow (talk) 18:05, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
  5. Same treatment from last time. Arcadium Trancefer (talk) 17:05, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
  6. -- Techpriest (talk) 14:44, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

No[edit]

  1. 🙂‍↔️Monet Ye 21:02, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
  2. Too excessive, I think. Not if the 'Ban from SB' also passes, which in my opinion would nail the primary objectionable behaviour with the user. But to be honest my goodwill is really starting to flag... KarmaPolice (talk) 22:09, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Goat[edit]

Permanent ban[edit]

Yes[edit]

  1. Carthage (talk) 15:26, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
    Isn't this too much for a case of foot in mouth? It's not like I've been continuing with the active death threats that got me sysoprevoked… my problem this time was not paying enough attention to that voice in my head saying "maybe talking about using machine guns and gas chambers on Republicans, even to mention how astronomically high the "bad situation" bar would have to be to warrant it, is a bad idea". I'll pay more attention to that voice in the future. Luigifan18 (talk) 15:33, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
  2. It’s for the best. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 15:54, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
  3. Scream!! (talk) 16:51, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
  4. It's time to break the cycle. Plutocow (talk) 18:05, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
  5. Sorry man I wrote essays for you to try figure things out but things just haven't changed. Remember what I told you. I don't think you're a bad faith editor, but we can't keep having another drama every other week with you refusing to handle it in any different way even after it's been the twentieth time we are in this situation. I like you, but I don't think RW is the right place for you, for our sake but also for your own sake. ULTRACOMFY (talk) 19:05, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
    Is there another way to handle it? I don't know. I didn't mean to say anything super-controversial or that could be a call for violence; I simply made a mistake. It happens from time to time. I'm trying to figure it out, but these things take time. But I can promise that I won't let anything this bad happen again. Luigifan18 (talk) 14:36, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
  6. Star of David.png Radioactive afikomen Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments. 19:40, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
  7. Best solution for all involved. —cosmikdebris talk stalk 19:57, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
  8. Finally...-Flandres (talk) 20:04, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
  9. Huge time- and energy-sink, nothing solved, problems repeating. I think your journey towards maturity must go around, and not through, this community. But I don't hate you Luigifan18 and wish you the best. --ApooftGnegiol (talk) 20:08, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
  10. This is not unprecedented. We permabanned Nobs for a single instance of advocating violence (J6). Bongolian (talk) 21:06, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
  11. Unfortunately there comes a time when a Permaban is simpler than pagebans and topic bans. This is one of them in my book. Lavalizard101 (talk) 21:27, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
  12. I am unapologetically in favor of doing this, as I cannot think of another choice.Ephrom (talk) 4:09, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
  13. I remember reading his last coop case and thinking this outcome was quite inevitable. -RWRW (talk) 10:04, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
  14. I remember telling him that we had to be better than that when he said a song called "Hurry up and Die" should be RW's theme song. Clearly, he hasn't learned since then. Spud (talk) 11:46, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
    I have learned since then… I never would have said what I did if I thought it would reflect poorly on RationalWiki. I honestly didn't think that a mention of something that might be tragically necessary in a worst-case scenario could be mistaken for advice on what to do to prevent that scenario from coming to pass. In hindsight, my error is obvious, and I won't repeat it if I'm given the chance to clean up my act. I truly love this community, and I am begging to be allowed to stay. Luigifan18 (talk) 14:11, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
    The fact that you didn't think was the problem. It's always been the problem, and you haven't changed. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 14:34, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
    Yes, I make mistakes (don't we all?) and I don't think the same way that most people do, so it can be hard for me to realize that I might be about to make a mistake. But if I make a big mistake and I know what went wrong, I can take measures to avoid repeating it. Luigifan18 (talk) 14:42, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
    You've been saying the same shit for two years. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 14:44, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
    And I genuinely mean it. The problem isn't that I don't want to change, it's that changing can be difficult. I have been able to keep my temper in check regarding vandals and not wish actual harm upon them (as seen when I vented to Cosmikdebris about the vandal who was badmouthing them a week ago and ultimately got fed up with their crap; the worst thing I said was that my desire to assume good faith was unwarranted and I couldn't stick up for them anymore). In fact, there have been situations where I genuinely feel concern for trolls and want them to seek help. My behavior has steadily been improving, and this was just an isolated incident of some dark thoughts I wanted to talk to RationalWiki about finally bubbling to the surface. I also thought that there was a very clear difference between flat-out wishing that the Republicans would die (not acceptable) and saying that we could "justify" killing them if we used the same fucked-up bloodthirsty "logic" that they do, but we're not going to do that because we have firm moral principles against violence except in cases of self-defense or defense of others (i.e. the prevention of murder, mass murder, or genocide) (unpleasant to say or read for sure, but probably more realistic than total pacifism). Since it's been made clear that RationalWiki is not interested in being a therapist, I have a clear "thing to avoid doing from now on", and the best solution is probably something along the lines of "back off, cool down, move on, and let's meet up again when things are happier and we can have friendlier conversation". (And just to avoid ambiguity, that means that I want to be able to come back to RationalWiki later, but I do think that a pi-week or pi-month ban is an appropriate punishment for the sheer scale of my idiocy in this incident, and I'm currently too ashamed of my actions to bother being particularly active here anyways.) Luigifan18 (talk) 14:56, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
    Luigifan, you've also stated that "it's our freaking job to ruin the lives of people whose only contribution to humanity is ruining the lives of others!!!" The fact that you think the purpose of RationalWiki is to hurt people does not inspire confidence in words here. You have a very warped perspective of what this wiki is about. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 19:02, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
    That also could have been worded better. Indeed, our purpose at RationalWiki is not to hurt and ruin people; it's to save and protect people from being suckered in and harmed by idiocy and deceit. However, part of the process of doing this is exposing and denouncing cranks and frauds. This may very well ruin their livelihoods, but since their livelihoods are based on the exploitation and infliction of harm on others, they quite frankly deserve it. Luigifan18 (talk) 20:50, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
  15. This! Arcadium Trancefer (talk) 17:11, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
  16. The whole nonsense with 1d6chan was the last straw. What the hell was he thinking!? Paul S (talk) 19:09, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
    I thought it would be good for both sites… Luigifan18 (talk) 20:44, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
    Thinking about it is one thing. But going ahead and trying after being told it was a bad idea that no one here really wanted AND acting like some sort of self-appointed ambassador of the wiki? Yeah, no. Off you go. Paul S (talk) 22:45, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
  17. Can't say I'm happy because, well, I ain't. GeeJayKWhere all evil dwells Where every lie is true 19:14, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
  18. Mario The Door is This Way.jpg --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄 20:58, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
  19. Chillpilled (talk) 22:16, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
  20. See my comment in the discussion. -- Techpriest (talk) 14:44, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
  21. Reading Luigifans comments is actual brainrot. Monet Ye 08:10, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

No[edit]

  1. Heck no. RationalWiki is a very important part of my life, and has been since I first discovered it. (Have you seen how much effort I've put into my Progress & Regress Pokémon project? That's a labor of love for RationalWiki!) Luigifan18 (talk) 15:32, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
    Oh no... Arcadium Trancefer (talk) 17:53, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
    I already feel awful about how terribly I've [unwittingly] abused your trust and goodwill. I don't need mockery to make me feel worse. Luigifan18 (talk) 18:26, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
    You haven't listened to anyone here ever, and you posted terribly offensive stuff, so I'm just not going to listen to you and I'll continue pointing and laughing at your demise and your mega cringey Pokemon thing. Well done. 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄 21:28, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
  2. Too excessive. Plus, user has contributed positively to RW. But I'll be honest, my goodwill is really starting to flag here. KarmaPolice (talk) 22:11, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
  3. Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 07:04, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Ineligible[edit]

  1. Yes, I'm basically a nobody but I've been lurking longer then they've been here. Luigifan has been getting away with repeating these kinds of things and generally being callous for years. Do check their talkpage archives. I think it's indicative of a very very unchanging and negative behavioral loop. Alastor (talk) 12:13, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
Sadly, you've only 26 edits and are therefore not eligible to vote (need 75). Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 13:17, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
Even combining my history as User:Servasym, yeah. My bad. Alastor (talk) 13:49, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Goat[edit]

The bit before that, however does point out '90% of our articles would be offensive to someone' (true) and then point out often said people would be the sorts who hate RWs mission anyway. While Bongolian is quite right in saying RWs purpose isn't to ruin lives but it is the mission to make said life a little more difficult if you're a crank, fundie hypocrite, con-artist or similar. KarmaPolice (talk) 22:27, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
Why are you people so negative? Let us see the positive side of our mission: to make people's lives better by preventing them from becoming cranks themselves, or even convince cranks to change their beliefs. Stop framing everything in terms of antagonism for God's sake! I can tell you that I'm at least one person whose life is now better thanks to RationalWiki. MayGodSaveUsAll (talk) 23:05, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
Agreed, but I would argue that's not really our fault anymore than the fact that some reporting is causing the reporting's subject to face consequences is the reporter's fault. It's just a by-product of our work. Carthage (talk) 23:08, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
True. Don't we have a whole page of 'pissed at us'? We caused them discomfort and perhaps personal anguish. And what about all the arguments RW has caused by people using our pages etc to argue back against the family cranks? If we're doing our job well, this is bound to happen. KarmaPolice (talk) 10:03, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
We do. Arcadium Trancefer (talk) 12:21, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Right, but "ruining lives" should not be considered our "job". Our "job" is to be a purveyor of information and a refuter of misinformation. Something that helps people, not hurts them. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 16:10, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Except if we are not pissing off anybody, we are not doing our job. It shouldn't be the primary goal, more the effect. KarmaPolice (talk) 09:49, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
Also warning people about assholes. Like our pages on Ken and Mikey. Arcadium Trancefer (talk) 17:21, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Which I said in a discussion above this one… Luigifan18 (talk) 18:35, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Permaban from Saloon Bar[edit]

Yes[edit]

  1. This can be seen as a last-ditch measure if a full permaban is decided against as it will limit Luigifan's opportunity to say stupid shit in the future. We do run into the Ushit problem of banning the user from so much of the wiki to avoid a permaban that we wonder if it's even worth it. Plutocow (talk) 18:05, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
  2. Carthage (talk) 18:07, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
  3. If all else fails. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 18:30, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
  4. Scream!! (talk) 19:10, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
  5. Easiest fix of the most problematic behaviour. KarmaPolice (talk) 22:12, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
  6. Simple solution. If he causes more trouble on talk pages, then we can perma CorruptUser 02:01, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
  7. -- Techpriest (talk) 14:44, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

No[edit]

Goat[edit]

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