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:: Because we're old boffins who don't understand the youth these days. {{User:FuzzyCatPotato/sig|}} 15:38, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
 
:: Because we're old boffins who don't understand the youth these days. {{User:FuzzyCatPotato/sig|}} 15:38, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
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[[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 16:19, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

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Saloon bar
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Welcome, BoN
This is a place for general chit-chat about virtually anything that doesn't fit anywhere else.
Friends.gif For previous conversations, see the automagic barchives.Icon beer yellow.gif

What is going on?

(talk) (talk) (talk) (talk) (hic)

Pointless poll

Which pronunciation of the cacao/cocoa bean do you prefer?

Cacao

20

Vote

Cocoa

50

Vote

Why should we care it's fucking chocolate

51

Vote

To do list


Why is Death not the "answer"?

A recurring theme in existential philosophy I've seen is that suicide isn't the answer to life, that it's just negating the issue instead of dealing with it. But to me it does seem like a solution and it means one doesn't have to deal with the issue anymore. Their response to the matter is rather weak to me. I think it's because death is such a taboo topic that people don't want to answer the question about what if people want to die and there isn't anything medically wrong with them?

There is a lot to say about life being worth living. But if you choose to die then you wouldn't have to worry about what to fill your life with to make it worthwhile. All that work and effort required to exist is taken away. No worries, no joy, no anger, quite literally nothing. It just seems to me that when looking at it from cold logic, it doesn't make sense to continue living. I get some people say there is stuff they want to do, but that seems to fit in with the "worrying" about what you are going to fill your life with. With death there is no need for any of that. There isn't anything you need to do or want. No body to upkeep either.

That whole "life is worth living" bit doesn't make sense anymore, in fact it doesn't seem philosophically defensible. Antinatalism may have been right about this matter. Machina (talk) 06:10, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

I dunno. Probably the same reason erasing a math problem on a chalkboard doesn't mean you've solved the problem.70.192.69.126 (talk) 09:09, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
life is too brief as it is and you are along time dead. Why rush it? have you considered counselling of some kind? AMassiveGay (talk) 09:54, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
There are some cases where some people may decide that suicide may be the better or best option - 'particularly unpleasant (end of life) ill health' or 'to save the lives of others' being examples. Anna Livia (talk) 10:40, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
there are many obvious cases where this would be true, but this is not the situation presented. Machina, suicide ideation is generally seen as a red flag, and taken with your other posts, please seek professional help. AMassiveGay (talk) 15:18, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
Isn't that the problem though, that one cannot talk about it without thinking there is something wrong with the person. It's such a taboo subject that it's easy to label someone sick than actually think about it. So far no one has addressed the points I made.Machina (talk) 05:40, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
well, no. not really. ou've asked pretty much the same thing over and over again. we've answered over and over again. you've been unwilling to accept any answers have given. as i have mentioned before, it does not seem likely that you would want to accept any possible answer we give. you just want us to validate your own point of view. there comes a point when where your questioning ceases to to be about genuine inquiry and be a cause of concern. it seems to me to be the latter. i hope i am mistaken, if not, i urge you to please seek help. AMassiveGay (talk) 10:32, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
@AmassiveGay As someone who comes fro mthe same place as Machina: You did't answer you just wrote "life is too brief as it is and you are along time dead. Why rush it? have you considered counselling of some kind? " Thats a matter of perspective. I feel like Life is too long (dear lord another 30-50 Years of THIS Bullshit?).
Anyway @MAchina I feel ya if they'd legalize Euthanasia I'd be happy to take up on that. To answer your question: Death is inevetable. There is no inherent purpose in life (maybe the biological imperative of "make babies" :P ) and Suicide is indeed an valid logical option. However and here i join AMassiveGay: We are pre-programmed to value life and a loss of survival instinct is a distinct sign of Depression and/or Trauma. the BON formerly known as Benaresh 156.67.139.140 (talk) 21:01, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
Well, the BON fka Beraresh, we don't usually offer counseling services, but can recognize when someone might be in a crisis, emotionally. People sometimes "think too much" in such a way that their emotions get shunted internally and getting out of that is simple, if you know how and damned near impossible if you don't. 23:14, 7 September 2017 (UTC) C®ackeЯ

Because simply responding that life is worth living isn't answering the question so much as dodging it. Some people say life is too long and others say there is t enough time in the world. But too many are scared to talk about death as a logical option because it would upturn everything our society stands for and what life means overall. Machina (talk) 04:47, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

It may sound flippant but i get a lot of mileage out of "'I'm living in the simulation that finally proves evolution by replicating (roughly) how our designers, (stay with me...), set things up...exactly how it is in the REAL WORLD." The notion that this all is "practice" to attain heaven or nirvana or some-such is just silly. All the chaos in the world now? Yes, this is what a "glitch" would look like if you were in a "machine"; somebody'll along to reboot us anytime now. Call it "the Rapture" if you want. 06:40, 9 September 2017 (UTC) C®ackeЯ
@machina 'Because simply responding that life is worth living isn't answering the question' maybe not, but you've not really explained bwhy life isnt worth living. it strikes me that for death tlo ever be a solution, you require quite an extreme problem. if you are constant unbearable pain, then maybe. if your death means that others may live, maybe. because life is inherently meaningless. not so much. thats more a lack of imagination. death seems like an extreme option because you cant come up with your own purpose for life AMassiveGay (talk) 10:53, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
'It just seems to me that when looking at it from cold logic, it doesn't make sense to continue living.' i am yet to see this cold logic. the only suggestion you have is that it is too much effort. the finality of death would suggest to me its only something to considered when all other options are out. you negate the possibility of ever experiencing joy or purpose. you negate experiencing anything ever again. and for what? its 'too much effort'. i have to ask, what is going on your life that makes it 'too much effort'? suicide due to laziness seems a somewhat facile notion. make the effort. seek counselling if need be. catch a flick. read a good book. hang with friends. get laid. whatever floats your boat. AMassiveGay (talk) 12:12, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
death is an end to the cycle of boredom and the relief of boredom. It seems that life is just an endless cycle of relieving negatives. You speak of experiencing joy or purpose but those aren't reasons to stick around. After all, when you are dead you don't have to worry about joy or purpose. You don't need to concern yourself with the pursuit of either. The cold logic to me seems that without any inherent purpose to life there isn't a reason to exist. Sure we have the biological processes of evolution and such but those aren't really reasons to stick around. After all, it doesn't answer the question as to why one should continue to have the species persist, it just does. Your counter points don't answer or address the main issue. You assume life is worth sticking around and that we must do so. But we don't "have" to anything. Life is hard, and there isn't a reason tos stick around just because others are offput by the prospect of you choosing death. Death is an end to the drama and endless seeking that life is full of. It has always been an option to the problems of life but we instinctually take it off the table because the notion of it scares us. If death is a valid opinion to life and when it brings, then our society wouldn't be able to handle it. I say life is pain coming from privilege and having what most don't. If those with less feel like life isn't worth going on for, then what does it say to someone who has had everything available and would still choose the alternative? It's clear you aren't interested in a serious discussion about death, you in the same camp as the rest of the population that is scared to talk about it and consider it a "last resort". Machina (talk) 16:48, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
what better reason than joy is there to exist? Why do you 'need' a reason to exist? you say life is pain, coming from a world of privilege? what possible can you have that is neither physical nor insurmountable? yes i consider death a last resort. its very nature makes it so. death is not an option for the problems of life, it is a way of avoiding those problems, of not having ro deal with them. ive no time for the opinion that suicide is a cowards way out, but is it an apt one for your situation. as scared to talk about death - are we not doing that now? its not my fault that your idea of cold logic is lacking. 'someone who had everything and would still choose the alternativer' that my friend is what counselling is all about. i personally have no problem with lifes inherent meaninglessness. i am not so arrogant that it fractures my psyche to think i am neither special nor serve some great purpose. if anything it is liberating. i am master of my own destiny. nor do i fear death. it is inevitable. it is all around. i have a lover whose buried two boyfriends. my grandfather shot himself. a friend is riddled with cancer. life is brief. im not giving it it up because i'm bored or its to much effort. it'll come soon enough without having to look for it. i have a serious drug problem and ive an incurable disease. every weekend i face up to death and literally fuck him in the arse. i have no fear of death but you seem to have a fear of life. AMassiveGay (talk) 17:33, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
It's clear you don't have any comprehension of the subject and cannot have a serious discussion without defaulting to the same failed metrics everyone else uses. You are afraid to acknowledge it, that's why you suggest it being a cowards way out (but there is no reward for facing life's problems except more of the same). Suicide is one of the hardest things to do as it involves overcoming the drives that keep us alive. You are afraid that someone who doesn't have troubles seeks to die when you tell yourself that you are brave for overcoming so much, even though you aren't. No one is. The most such actions could be called is foolish. Calling suicide the coward's way out speaks to your fear and not about the subject. The whole "master of your fate" isn't true either. Only the lucky ones with money and access can say that. The majority of people are victims to circumstances out of our control. You clearly aren't arguing from logic but from emotion. The way it stands, we don't "have" to be alive so why do it? Joy isn't a reason to live, it's just a symptom of being alive. But when you're dead you need not concern yourself with it ever again, or anything else really. No matter how I try to slice it, choosing life seems irrational considering what a raw deal it is overall and how death offers a release from it all. You also barely scratch what I mean by life being meaningless, thinking I refer only to myself. All your fighting a protest ultimately amounts to the same thing as someone who killed themselves, a hole in the ground. I don't fear life, I'm just not looking forward to living the cyclical nature of it when I don't have to. Not looking forward to having to always have to do something to make it feel "worth it", if life was worth living then we wouldn't need to do anything to make it so.Machina (talk) 21:03, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
your logic seems to be all baseless assertions. you've made up your mind and rationalising to justify your assertions, to make them seem noble in your mind. its clear to me that you dont want discussion or dialogue you just want sycophantic agreement. tough. it is also clear that the reason you dont get anything from life is that you dont want to put in any effort. too bad. let me ask you this, what would be a reason to live if joy and happiness and pleasure isnt your thing? AMassiveGay (talk) 22:15, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
I have stated my logic, all you have are appeals to emotion. That is why talking to you is fruitless. I don't want this to be right, but you frankly aren't learned enough on the matter to throw any sort of wrench in it. I don't get anything from life because life gives nothing. It simply exists and multiplies without any logical reason behind it. It's cyclical only until the end of said cycle, and then another takes it's place. It seems to be existing simply to exist, and struggling when there is no need to. Why should one put effort into life? There isn't anything saying we need to do so? If life where worth living then effort would not need to be put to make it so. Joy and happiness are only a concern for the living, and the pursuit of them isn't a reason to live but one to die actually. The fact that we have to seek goodness and pleasure lest we suffer boredom. We do the things that give us joy until they no longer do, and then we seek more. It's a never ending hunger. In a sense it is the denial of the state of human nature, boredom. Without a constant stream of good times or distractions we see life for what it actually is. It's a concern that disappears with death. We struggle to survive only to do the same thing again the next day, and when survival isn't a concern we seek something to stave off boredom or to give meaning. So we craft this civilization where we believe all these things have meaning and that they matter, but they don't. We just fool ourselves and distract our minds to avoid seeing that a diamond is a rock, baseball is just a game, gold is just a metal, and that job you have doesn't really change anything. Life is just a relief of the negatives that it brings, and when you get rid of one then more come until you die (or one of the negatives gets you). TO me the phrase that "life is worth living" is terribly ignorant, just a mantra that if we repeat long enough then maybe we'll believe it. If anything, your logic is but baseless assertions.Machina (talk) 22:45, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
'If life where worth living then effort would not need to be put to make it so' this is just arse. we are not children. we do not expect things to just happen. why do you think anything of worth would or should require no effort? you say joy is a symptom? so what? its pretty good symptom. i would say its more than that. i would say thats the point. after all, why do we do anything if not for the hope that it will in some way enable us to experience joy, pleasure, love, happiness or what have you. you say this is denial of human nature. this is false. this is human nature. why is this a bad thing? yes a diamond is just a rock. yes baseball is just a game. they have no inherent worth. so what? its not the inherent worth that matters its the worth that people place on them that does. it is an artificial construct but so what? that there is no inherent worth in life? so what? it does not follow that we are better of dead. i have long since recognised the absurdity of the things of life, of its ultimate meaningless. so what? why should it have? why should that make me not want to continue? i get enough pleasure out such meaningless distractions. you say the phrase 'life is worth living' is terribly ignorant. that it is a mantra. it may well be a mantra, but it is far from ignorant. you make the effort to get what gives you joy, pleasure, love, happiness, then you make it worthwhile. you make no effort, and get nothing from life. it is your failing not life's if you do not. its not going to be handed to you to on a plate. oh, and do try to be less of a prick. your arrogance probably doesnt help. AMassiveGay (talk) 01:14, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
It's not my failing but that of life that it isn't inherently worth living and that it is rather cruel that humans have to struggle to make it so. We struggle hard to find joy and happiness only to wake up and do it all again the next day? It's simply not logical at all, it seems like an exercise in futility or just madness. We try hard each day so that we can wake up tomorrow and try hard each day. It's either stupidity or cruelty. And once again you haven't negated my point that through death we avoid having to do any of that. We don't have to worry about joy, love, pain, friendship, nothing at all. You never feel anything ever again, but all you have is the foolishness you and everyone else spouts at me instead of addressing the main points. This seems to show me that we are deluding ourselves into thinking life is great when it isn't and that death is the preferable option. It may as well be fact. With death the concerns and joys of life aren't an issue any more. One doesn't have to worry about finding joy, or hunger, or illness, or love. It seems like the antinatalists are right on this one, if given full information about what life was like we would choose not to be born. So far there hasn't been any convincing logic as to choosing life over the peace of death.Machina (talk) 04:09, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
this is getting awfully repetitive. it false to suggest that the search for joy and happiness is a constant struggle. i am sure for some folk it may be, but it that is far from universal, and does preclude people from being happy. it suggests a false dilemma that if you are not experiencing some kind of euphoric joy you are experincing some kind of unbearable pain or misery. this is just false. think of it more of a spectrum where you can achieve a kind of base level happiness pretty much constantly. yes some effort is required. it is far the herculean task you make it out to be. plenty will say the effort, the journey, is as good as the pay off. you say death would mean not having to worry about joy. this is true, but its a curious statement. why wouldnt you want to experience joy or happiness? why wouldnt you want to do all to keep experiencing joy and happiness? why is is it foolish to want this? perhaps this is true for you. perhaps you do not experience enough joy and happiness to make it worth while for you (and as i and have others have repeated said before, seek counselling. the comment below could help there). but lets not pretend this is the case for all. lets not pretend that everyone else is deluded and only you are the seeing some of kind universal truth. lets not pretend everyone is secretly miserable because yourself might be. its an easy thing to blame ones failings or misery on the unfairness of life or when people dont share your low opinion that they must be doing stupid or deluded, but ultimately, they are happy and you are not. it it is a trap of your own making. it makes it so much harder to experience the positives of life. if i am deluded or foolish, so be it. it seems like the logical course rather than griping and insulting all who disagree with your own subjective view. i'll ask again, because you havent answered this, what would make life worth while? what would bring you enough joy and happiness to make any effort worthwhile? you keep asking us what these would be (you ask why death is the answer, it amounts to the same thing). only you can that answer it. there are no universal truths here 12:09, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

I have four responses:

  1. First: If you are considering suicidal, please call 1-800-273-8255 or visit https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/ -- the vast majority of suicide survivors regret attempting it. Please don't.
  2. Second: Epistemic humility: You think you know what's true, but you don't really. Your brain is limited; your experience is limited; and our knowledge (our science, our philosophy) is limited. Don't stake your entire ability to learn about and change the world -- your life -- on a belief that you don't know to be true. If there's even a chance that you're wrong, it's not worth it.
  3. Third: Moral nihilism: If nothing matters, then there's no reason to keep on living. There's also no reason to commit suicide. If nothing is meaningful, then you can impose your own meaning on the universe. And that meaning probably requires you to be alive -- present in the universe -- in order to enact it.
  4. Fourth: Moral possibilism: A la Pascal's Wager, it's possible that there's moral meaning in the universe. Unless you can positively prove that nothing is moral in the universe, there's always a chance that something is. And if morality exists (and if it involves humans), then there is purpose to life. If you are alive, there's a nonzero chance that you could discover (or help discover) the correct morality. If you are not alive, there is a zero chance that you can discover the correct morality. Think of it via Pascal's Wager: If you aren't sure which God exists, or if none exists, it doesn't make sense to end your life on the off chance you got the answer correct. Instead, it makes sense to never, ever stop reading and thinking and researching about the issue. Mʀ. Wʜɪsᴋᴇʀs, Esϙᴜɪʀᴇ (talk/stalk) 07:04, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
your replies are negated by stating that life is optional. We don't have to do any of that at all. So if it isn't mandatory then why bother? Why not just simply die and no longer be concerned or involved with any of it? No more seeking or concerns about joy. No needing to read or learn, no need to see movies, or get a job. One would not be concerned about any of that. Especially not having to deal with morality or how to live. When life is optional, why not choose death? There isn't anything that we need to live for that won't be dust at some point. When you're dead you don't have to think about the "joy and journey of life". The dead have no concern or involvement with such things. All your responses are negated by simply stating that they are optional. One can just choose death and ignore all of that. As much as I don't want to admit it, it seems like the better deal. Machina (talk) 03:49, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
While technically optional, life is bittersweet and short. Everybody is effected by other people, and someone else's suicide tends to have a negative impact on many. Try to avoid focusing on all the negatives on life. Life is short, so don't make it even shorter. Sure, all the bad times may go away, but so will all the good times that make life worth living. —вιgℓʝвιgℓ (ᴛᴀʟᴋ/sᴛᴀʟᴋ) 21:48, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
@Machina You can't reject logic by calling it "optional". For example, #4 can be (oversimpifiedly) expressed such:
1: Premise: Humans should always attempt to perform morality-increasing actions.
2: Conclusion (from 1): Humans should never attempt to perform non-morality-increasing actions.
3: Premise: Suicide prevents a human from performing morality-increasing actions.
4: Premise: An action that prevents a human from performing morality-increasing action is a non-morality-increasing action.
5: Conclusion (from 3,4): Suicide is a non-morality-increasing action.
6: Conclusion (from 2,5): Humans should never attempt to perform suicide.
You can deny premise 1 -- you can say that humans don't have an obligation to perform morality-increasing actions. But that is not an uncontroversial claim. Premise 1 is merely the idea that "if morality exists, you should perform moral actions". And so long as it is possible that morality exists, it is possible that this premise holds true. For you to disprove the logic, you must disprove the existence of all possibly moralities.
TLDR: Saying "optional" is a cheap way out. There are reams upon reams of philosophy articles probing this question. FU22YC47P07470 (talk/stalk) 22:41, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

It might be cheap but it's something you don't have an answer for, something that philosophy tends to sufffer with. It can't deal with simple answers. Machina (talk) 14:53, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

You complain that respondents aren't using logic in their answers. When presented with logic, you reject it without presenting logic to that end. This is a sign of bias, not rationality. FuzzyCatPotato of the Dead Fluorescent lights (talk/stalk) 17:54, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
'Why not just simply die and no longer be concerned or involved with any of it? No more seeking or concerns about joy. No needing to read or learn, no need to see movies' because i want these things and the many ills of life are not yet sufficient to discount this. i am not at a point where pain and despair make suicide seem an attractive option or worth the pain it would cause those loved ones left behind. because a little effort to get the things i desire is worth that effort. you will note that while general, these are personal reasons, perhaps emotional reasons. the specifics of what these things are will vary from person to person, their own personal emotional reasons. you want to know what makes life worth living? i have repeatedly told you to look to yourself. your 'cold logic' tells you life is meaningless. i would agree. so is death. this is however, where any useful logic on the matter ends. it cannot tell us why life is worth it. it cannot tell us why death is the answer. these are personal, emotional questions with personal emotional answers. one persons answer may not be your answer but it isnt less valid than your own. sure life is optional. sure death is an option. if i stub my toe, death is an option. its an extreme option. a final one. it closes all other options. for it to be a valid option it requires an extreme and very personal problem. you say life is worth it, death is the answer. i say the opposite. both answers are valid to ourselves. they both require value judgements. both subjective views based our own life experiences, perception, emotions, our own situations. despite your insistence, there is no cold logic here. we are not machines. we are human beings. emotional creatures. any answers about the questions you are asking that discount our emotions are invalid, dare i say, not logical. we are not purchasing car insurance. the questions you are asking have deeply personal and emotional answers. my answers will differ to yours. they may take a lifetime to answer. death prevents any hope of finding an answer. at the very least, you can still enjoy the ride AMassiveGay (talk) 10:32, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
Except there is cold logic. The thing that "make life worth it" only apply if you are alive. Failing to do those things are in a sense what causes suffering, which can be said to be the truth behind existence. If you die there wouldn't be a need to make life worthwhile, or anything really. The logic that applies to staying alive because life is worth living is flawed, because it only works if we have no choice but to live. If there was a painless out for life it would render all the talk about struggle and reward moot, because there would be no reason to do it all. Machina (talk) 16:36, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
'the things that "make life worthwhile" only apply if you are alive' guess what? i am alive. all those things that make life worth living all apply. Why would i choose oblivion over that? where is the logic there? sure, i wouldnt need to worry about things if dead, but why would i choose to turn my back things that i want?
'The logic that applies to staying alive because life is worth living is flawed, because it only works if we have no choice but to live.' but i thought your whole crux of your argument was that 'life is optional'. i can certainly choose to die. But why would i? where is the logic that says death is the better option? Choosing to live or die is a subjective personal choice. the worries in my world do not out weigh the pleasures of my world. If you are taking the worldwide emo position of 'didnt choose to be born', well, true but this is where we are. lets not discuss the pro and cons of a fantasy.
'Failing to do those things are in a sense what causes suffering, which can be said to be the truth behind existence.' possibly, but so what? i'm not failing to get the things i desire. I am not suffering. i dont suffer when i dont get something i want either. my happiness is not dependent on one thing.
'If there was a painless out for life it would render all the talk about struggle and reward moot, because there would be no reason to do it all.' there are plenty of painless outs. there are plenty of suicide chat rooms to get pointers, if you are so inclined. i am not so inclined. still no cold logic as to why i should. you keep saying that there. you keep saying there is no reason to live. ive given you plenty. joy, happiness, love etc. take your pick. you've given no no reasons not to live, beyond its not worth it. this might be true for you. it might be true for others. but its not true for me. its not true for most people. its all subjective choice.
Death is final. it is oblivion. we would have no worries, no nothing. this is banal in its obviousness. but we are not dead. we live and we breathe. and while we do we can experiences all the pleasures life has to offer. you are going need more than a subjective assertion that all the pleasures of life arnt worth it for oblivion to be a good option. you have provided no logic as to why this is preferable. only subjective opinion. please stop pretending you've stumbled across some universal truth, because this is a lie.AMassiveGay (talk) 18:08, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
Actually joy, happiness, and love aren't guarantees. But sufffering is, just look at what happens when you do nothing. Not to mention the longer you live the higher you chances of encountering greater suffering. People don't die peacefully in their sleep. As ciorian wrote: "pleasure prepares pain". In death you have no wants, nothing to pursue. You are taken out of the turbulent chaos of life. You don't need to live, but everything must die eventually. It's doesn't matter if it happens sooner. There are no regrets when you are dead. Thoughts of all the things you wanted to do vanish. Logically speaking, there is no real reason to stay alive. If you don't need to. Technically nothing needs to live, more like wants. Life itself just multiplies without reason. To stick around is just to struggle a bit longer, but the end is the same. It doesn't matter what the journey was like if it isn't remembered. Soon all of humanity will be dust, no difference from the ones who took their lives and the ones who choose to keep going.Machina (talk) 06:15, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
1. who said anything about guarantees? i said you got to work at it to get anything out it. if you do nothing its all on you.
2. i am sure the longer you live there greater chance of experience suffering. this too is banal in its obviousness. So what? you maybe guaranteed suffering, chances are you will live a life time before you have to endure something so terrible it cancels out all the good things. and thats really key here - it has to be sufficient to make all the pleasures not worth it, it has be such that there is no likihood of getting through. until such a time death is an over reaction. you think i gonna kill myself because 20 years from now i might have cancer? its a facile suggestion.
3. yes logically, nothing 'needs' live. so what? we do live. we are alive. we are not in a fantastical world we are neither dead or alive and we get to choose? we live now. deal with that. all arguments about death having no worries, no joy, no nothing come from this fantasy land. they hold no merit because we are alive. we have worries and we have joy. you give no logical reason why anyone should give up them beyond we might at some point feel pain. top yourself then, not before.
4. yes we all will die. all too soon. another banal point. it certainly no reason to seek it out. why would you need to? one day all life will be dust. what of it? how does that in way impact the here and now? it does not. does it impact the living? it does not.
5. there is no 'reason' to live. yet we do. is it a requirement of life that it needs some grandiose purpose? it is not. similarly there is no 'reason' to die. since we are already alive, a strong, definite reason is required. not a nebulous 'its not worth it'
what we are left with is again, not cold logic, but subjective opinion of the worth of living. if you have concluded 'death is the answer', a facile answer to a facile question, then it is your own personal, subjective answer. face up to that rather than trying rationalise it as any kind of logical or reasoned argument. AMassiveGay (talk) 17:08, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
oh, one more thing. people DO die their sleep. all the fucking time AMassiveGay (talk) 17:16, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
But there is a reason to die. It frees one from wants and desires. In life an unmet desire is a source of suffering as long as it's unmet, yet once you meet it the satisfaction is far too brief. To be free of the chasing of your wants and desires seems logical. When one is dead there is no need to experience anything good, no work to do. So long as one is alive, one "must" experience such things lest they face a certain kind of hell. Wants and desires are, ironically, reasons to die. Saying there isn't a logical reason to die (apart from being incorrect) doesn't negate that there isn't one to live. That without any logical reason to live, death would be the correct choice. You are also spared any pain in the future, pain that is far more likely to occur than pleasure, which I have stated only matters to the living. In death you avoid pain and don't need pleasure. It is the logical choice. Machina (talk) 20:08, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
holy christ this is some repetitive shit.
1. 'But there is a reason to die. It frees one from wants and desires. In life an unmet desire is a source of suffering as long as it's unmet, yet once you meet it the satisfaction is far too brief.' this is both a piss poor reason to die and simply false. you do not suffer if a desire is not met. it is rarely an either/or situation. we are not children who throw a fit if they cant have a toy. we have more than one want or desire. they dont all need to be met. and once they are met, when the satisfaction, just as easily longer lasting or enduring than you suggest, fades and we are left with happy memories. our wants and desires are not the painful ravenous hunger of starvation. it is not an unpleasant experience to have them. they can provide our own personal purpose. they make the realisation of them even sweeter. wants and desires are part of what makes us human.
2. 'That without any logical reason to live, death would be the correct choice.' false, false, false. this is idiotic. aside from the reasons for living i have all ready given, you are your emotion, the sensations you feel. you cannot negate these with a 'logical' contrivance. this what we as human beings are. you cannot deny yours or my humanity. all attempts result in failure. no matter how hard you might try. you will always be these things. they will colour all you do. until such a time there can be no joy until such a time as pain is all you can feel death is not a correct choice. a 'logical' reason to live is redundant. it is not required. we are alive. it is the baseline state. to say 'then death is the correct choice' is not only not true, its the answer to a different question entirely - 'should you end your life'. without unenduring pain, there is no convincing reason that isnt steeped in your own neurosis.
3. 'You are also spared any pain in the future, pain that is far more likely to occur than pleasure, which I have stated only matters to the living.' i feel i have already answered these. repeatedly. we are alive. so they do matter. to us. to everyone living. it is far from true that you are likely to experience pain than pleasure. anyone alive can tell you that. it need not be euphoric rapturous joy. people get pleasure from millions of tiny thing everyday. satisfaction from the most mundane things. pain? awful, unendurable, pain? not as common you suggest. i am sure there are people whose life is one of unending misery. probably lots. but that would be changing the scope of the discussion. in the future, i might get cancer, but the key word here is 'future'. if it isnt immediate, i not going to live in fear of it. im not going to fear it to the extent that i will end it all because years from now i might be in pain. this is just facile. or are you talking more general pain? i was a little bit sad when my niece and nephew went home today. i might be a little bit sad when i part ways with a friend someday. should i end it? or just get laid instead? shit, people with cancer can often still get enough pleasure and joy in their lives that that pain isnt enough for em not to carry on until the inevitable.
so, again, we are faced with the same subjective opinions on the worth of live, presented as if they were a logical argument. this is your delusion. AMassiveGay (talk) 23:35, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
You don't get it. Life just seems far too long, too much time and not enough things to entertain oneself until they die. It’s like we have to fill the time with something, in that sense life seems more like a prison than an opportunity. Especially even more so given the meaningless nature of the universe and the crippling sense of nihilism that surrounds one upon the realization of that. There is no ultimate goal to life, we are just meat sacks wandering until we expire. What kind of existence is that? Why prolong such a cosmic joke?Machina (talk) 06:06, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
i get it completely. i have already made clear it clear why i believe this is nonsense and there is no point in repeating myself here. this is nothing nearing a logical argument. it is an argument based on subjective personal perspective. if this is genuinely your view, you should consider that no one who is happy has this view. this is a view of someone who very much needs counselling of some kind to tackle whatever underlying issues caused a such existential angst and reengage with life to be happy. if this is you, please seek help. AMassiveGay (talk) 11:17, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Any argument against suicide is an argument against abortion; if you are pro-choice, accept this man/woman's choice to kill him/herself if he/she wants to do that. 71.208.176.156 (talk) 00:03, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
Well that's not entirely true, someone who's currently living is a sentient entity. megalodon (talk) 03:53, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

To put it so even Mechina could understand:
Witchi-tie-to, gimee rah,
Whoa rah neeko, whoa rah neeko
Hey ney, hey ney, no way
Witchi-tie-to, gimee rah
Whoa rah neeko, whoa rah neeko
Hey ney, hey ney, no way
Water spirit feelin'
Springin' round my head
Makes me feel glad
That I'm not dead
Witchi-tie-tie, gimee rah
Whoa rah neeko, whoa rah neeko
Hey ney, hey ney, no way
Witchi-tie-tie, gimee rah
Whoa rah neeko, whoa rah neeko
Hey ney, hey ney, no way
no flying monkeys please

  • Hey idiots, sometimes suicide IS the best option. Just think, the Columbine jackasses could have continued hurting people, but they decided to kill themselves instead. Same thing with Hitler. 76.3.175.18 (talk) 23:45, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
Dear illiterate BON: No one argued that suicide is never the best option. The general arguments favor the conclusion that it usually is not a good choice. Which it is not.Ariel31459 (talk) 02:30, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

The Opposition

Jordan Klepper has made a really funny parody of the alt-right media. Chat about it here. Personally, I think he does a pretty good job. —ѕυρяємє ℓєα∂єя вιgℓʝвιgℓ σf gσαтιѕтαи (ωσя∂ѕ σf ωιѕ∂σм/α¢нιєνємєитѕ) 03:45, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

A link would help. - Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 18:25, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

Just a thought about the term "alt-right." It refers to a new movement on the American Right that strongly interacts with fringe and digital media. Many long years of liberal and progressive campaigning against "far-right" ideas has led to the general disapproval of the so-called right wing. It seems to me that "alt-right" is just a substitute for "new-and-improved-right." It is just a conman's buzzword for the same old far-right, a term I prefer to use.Ariel31459 (talk) 19:42, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

In a few ways, I can't help but feel like this decade is some sick parody of the '00s. Now the right-wing is seen as the scrappy undergog and we are the "establishment." The hell happened? RoninMacbeth (talk) 22:46, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
@Smerdis of Tlön http://www.cc.com/episodes/by4a8d/the-opposition-with-jordan-klepper-september-25--2017---kurt-andersen-season-1-ep-1001ѕυρяємє ℓєα∂єя вιgℓʝвιgℓ σf gσαтιѕтαи (ωσя∂ѕ σf ωιѕ∂σм/α¢нιєνємєитѕ) 23:18, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
Thank you! - Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 16:14, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

ObamaCare Repeal Failed

The "last resort" failed...again. So yeah, prepare for the "last resort but it's really the last resort unless we decide to do this a fourth time" bill. #Medicare4All —ѕυρяємє ℓєα∂єя вιgℓʝвιgℓ σf gσαтιѕтαи (ωσя∂ѕ σf ωιѕ∂σм/α¢нιєνємєитѕ) 03:03, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

So, the Trump Republicans fail. Oh, yeah! That's good! -- Bryan See (talk) 08:10, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
What we need is for Bernie Sanders to call his bill "T.R.U.M.P. care", just to see if it works - David Gerard (talk) 09:49, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
Yes, the acronym could be Try Repeal Unless Millions Protest. Leuders (talk) 15:15, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
it strikes me as pretty disgusting that, not that they want to get rid of obamacare, but they want get rid of it with absolutely NOTHING to replace it or in fact, any idea of what to replace it with. AMassiveGay (talk) 16:14, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
We should replace ObamaCare with the United States National Health Care Act. —ѕυρяємє ℓєα∂єя вιgℓʝвιgℓ σf gσαтιѕтαи (ωσя∂ѕ σf ωιѕ∂σм/α¢нιєνємєитѕ) 20:24, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
Universal healthcare is never a bad thing, despite all libertarian and the like BS. Panzerfaust (talk) 13:12, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Got a Praguer U ad on YouTube

It was about how Isreal doesn't practice segregation. I skipped it after 3 seconds,but want to hear it masterfully debunked. ShiningSwordofThoughts (talk)

Please for the love of god no more fucking Zionism arguments I think we've had enough.'Legionwhat do you want from me 18:36, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
I have an alternate solution to your predicament ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 16:16, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
AdBlocker. Learn it. Love it. KevinR1990 (talk) 16:54, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
My statement was more at legion being tired of people rightly pointing out that Israel is an apartheid state, then that kinda obvious point devolving rapidly into semantics where neither side is right. Don't look at those conversations. But yes, adblock everything, fifth avenue should burn. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 17:12, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
I'm not at all tired of people pointing out this fact, I support BDS, and am vehemently pro-Palestine, I just have an issue with people talking about it here, because I don't want the site to descend into more articles about Israel, leading to more drama, coops, and bans.'Legionwhat do you want from me 19:36, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

Roy Moore wins GOP Alabama primary!!

Well this country is becoming more insane by the day, now that a openly theocratic politician will be serving in the US Senate!! S.H. DeLong (talk) 17:57, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Also If you think I am wrong, look at the recent polls! Moore is ahead by nearly 16 points, the Democrats don't have a chance to win in Alabama. S.H. DeLong (talk) 18:06, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
Hey, at some point the cancer that is republican ideology will metastasize and the conservative ideology will utterly destroy america's ability to maintain empire no matter what percentage of our GDP goes into military. Then we can complete the decay into a feudal state while laying the groundwork that will eventually allow a revolution into a less shitty country. Too bad about all the nazis we'll vote in who'll scapegoat minorities in more direct and destructive ways first. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:39, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
I, for one, eagerly look forward to the revolution that makes USA a Marxist state so it can become the latest in a long line of failures. It will mean they can no longer pour money to the theocrats you dogs love to defend when they're in other countries, but don't seem to like when they get elected in your own. And best of all, perhaps a Marxist America will...take care of antifa and the other leftists, like the Bolsheviks did after the civil war ;) Lord Aeonian (talk) 16:24, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
Yes, yes, Aeonian remains a fucking moron whose ideology is directly responsible for the rapid deterioration we're seeing right fucking now, while smugly blaming entirely hypothetical future communists for the completely retarded course he's still dead-set on, despite copious evidence. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 16:48, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
What is the point of your sarcasm Lord Aeonian? None of us shall live long enough to see a Marxist state in North America. Also, what good does it do to suppose everyone reading your rant apologizes for theocrats? I, for one, do not. Additionally, those freaking out about Moore should remember he was elected in Alabama. The people down there have not changed. They have always really liked this guy. South Alabama is called the Redneck Riviera. If you didn't know, The Supreme Court Chief Justice (his old job) is elected in Alabama.Ariel31459 (talk) 00:00, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
I agree with both you and Ikanreed, in that a Marxist revolution is a laughable thought. My point was it isn't desirable at all, not that it will happen. Now, what would be desirable for places like Alabama would be a state which explicitly disavows religious belief and does its best to combat it through simple things like better education and taxing religious institutions to make their existences harder. I'd say a good 30 years of solid critical thinking education with some obvious nudges to religious applications would make your "Bible Belt" a much better place. But, you see, people like Ikanreed are strictly opposed to state anti-theism, for reasons such as it is "authoritarian" (poor excuse for a leftist, I agree) and I forgot the others they listed. So I'm just reminding certain people that they shouldn't be upset when theists do as theists will do if they find any attempts to stop them deplorable. :) Lord Aeonian (talk) 05:17, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

How did this go from "bigoted GOPer wins seat" to "revolution now / you're all communists" so quickly? Find out today on Internet Forum Daily! Fuzzy "Cat" Potato, Jr. (talk/stalk) 04:25, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

I didn't say "revolution now" I said that this shit will eventually deteriorate until the united states is nothing. Fuck your accidental apologia for Aeonian being such a goddamn worthless shithead by pretending I provoked him. And I know I shouldn't be rude to you just because you're trying to be civil, but fuck that; don't buy into his schtick. Fuzzy, you're not this dumb. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:26, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
@Ikanreed Are you doing alright, more generally? Sir ℱ℧ℤℤϒℂᗩℑᑭƠℑᗩℑƠ (talk/stalk) 01:47, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Someone who knows psychology look this over

Someone made an edit on the page "Jordan B. Peterson". They added a bunch of citations on how gender differences are true.

ClickerClock (talk) 07:29, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

There is a very strong case that significant differences are detectable, e.g., in mathematics women are better at calculation while men tend to be better at word problems. The Elizabeth Spelke, Steven Pinker debate is instructive if you have a couple of hours to review it. Certainly there is no reason to conclude that men are superior to women in intellectual abilities. They do seem to be somewhat different.Ariel31459 (talk) 14:40, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
We have need an equivalent to racialism for gender differences for some time now. In this case, unlike racialism, there's pretty good evidence for gender differences but not superiority. That said, in turn, these differences are usually not so large or so important as our reactionary friends would have us believe. FuzzyCatPotato of the Hideous Arc welders (talk/stalk) 15:07, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
So here's why the instant revert by CB was okay: there are measurable gender differences in a number of areas, but the biological determinism aspects that Peterson ascribes them to have never, ever been validated in any sort of remotely scientific way, and the citations provided don't even begin to properly support it. Magical thinking underlies a lot of sexist ideology. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:29, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
At the end of the day, all valid psychological generalizations are a result of statistical studies, not ideology. When similar statistical differences appear over many different cultures, the weaker argument is nurture. Statistics can not tell us what is true, only what is likely.Ariel31459 (talk) 16:31, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

Edgy teen atheist blasphemy zone

Let's see how many religions we can blaspheme with our words and actions. Warning, everything below is super-edgy.


Wake up from a nice rest on a comfy bed and then have a cup of coffee. Drive to work, chat with female boss about today's goals. Work a little while. But not too hard. Go grab a ham sandwich for lunch, and see a red cross truck. Donate blood. Head back to work. Head home, have a steak dinner. Have pre-marital sex with my significant other. Get a shower. Go to bed. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 16:13, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

Dinner begins with a statement in support of the oppositional figures of Ahriman, Satan, God, Shaitan, and Kali. Appetizers are a vast selection of cheeses and charcuterie offal with escargot in butter and fresh oysters. During appetizers, a brief reading of L. Ron Hubbard's Operating Thetan VII writings are read whilst a sacred image of a Stupa is burned and a Eucharist is crushed underfoot. Participants then convert sequentially from faith to faith, each time vehemently denying the validity of the previous faith, while cocktails (Bloody Mary with a shrimp-and-bacon garnish) are served. During soup (your choice of mushroom-onion in beef stock with grated cheese or rich turtle) a copy of each of the world's holy texts will be destroyed. During dinner (veal bourginon with mother's milk herb butter) the apocrypha of all the major faiths will be read and praised as the true text(s). Over dessert (Goat milk cheesecake with a coffee reduction) each person then self-ordains as a Catholic priest, followed by Pope, followed by Anti-Pope. Cigars and brandy to follow.
All plates are, of course, richly detailed with images of the prophet Muhammad. Semipenultimate (talk) 17:56, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
Isn't self-ordaining as pope exactly the same as regular ordaining as anti-pope? ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 18:49, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
Shhh, give their tradition some respect. Fuzzy "Cat" Potato, Jr. (talk/stalk) 19:08, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

You want edgy blasphemy? You got it. Firefly was cancelled because it was crap. Nudescendant (talk) 20:03, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

Insultin' Firefly? That's a paddlin'. RoninMacbeth (talk) 22:18, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
No way man, them's fighting words...(aside): get my axe!Ariel31459 (talk) 22:33, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

I don't have anything witty to say here. Sorry. —Kazitor, pending 02:28, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

And Mock Turtle soup for those of a more vegetarian persuasion, with pasta in the shape of turtles in honour of His Noodleness.
Non-teenagers to use 'cool' language and wear clothes from the 'in' designers (thus rendering them totally 'non-in'). Anna Livia (talk) 09:24, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
Goats suck and so does the in-joke.-DiamondDisc1|1csiDdnomaiD (talk) 06:39, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
It's supposed to be "blasphemy", not "dull and obvious truths"... though then again, I guess any statement against a religion usually fits into the latter category as well. —Kazitor, pending 09:19, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
Jar Jar Binks is the greatest Star Wars character. Period. LongLostLegend (talk) 08:36, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
Probably close to Darth Vader in terms of "number of words written about him" or "emotional reaction created in audience". Going by Time's person of the year rules, you're not wrong. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 19:55, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Unemployment rate

Doesn’t count a huge portion that most people would consider unemployed. Adam Ruins Everything - Why the "Unemployment Rate" is Flawedℓσωℓу ѕуѕσρ вιgℓʝвιgℓ σf gσαтιѕтαи (ωσя∂ѕ σf ωιѕ∂σм/α¢нιєνємєитѕ) 16:50, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

Let me preface this with: I am a tremendous partisan. That's relevant, because the line you've regurgitated is one that has been in use for decades every time an out-of-power party wants to criticize a recovering economy. take a look at this wikipedia graph. It pretty clearly shows how well the various measures track to each other, including the green "official" number. If we have a long-term economic problem, it's not really unemployment, it's conservative ideology. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 17:28, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
@Ikanreed: He's not entirely wrong. Unemployment is a somewhat flawed method of tracking economic health. However, it is still a very useful method of tracking economic health. Every economic model is flawed, but more often than not the flaws do not outweigh the benefits the models serve. RoninMacbeth (talk) 00:10, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
Not to mention the fact that the only type of unemployment that is considered bad per se is cyclical unemployment. RoninMacbeth (talk) 00:12, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

'Cuba Syndrome'

Should there be a RW article on this affliction of US persons there? Anna Livia (talk) 17:29, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

It may be hard to address at this point due to there not being much consensus about what's going on & the diversity of symptoms. However, there is some indication that it could be infrasound, and our page covers the infrasound-as-weapon idea. The page could be expanded with what is known from Cuba. Bongolian (talk) 23:48, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
As it is 'a proclaimed phenomenon' (which is not the same as 'an actual phenomenon') perhaps there could be a passing mention on the infrasound page by 'the proverbial someone who knows more about the subject.' Anna Livia (talk) 09:26, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Infinity

Do not fear death. Fear that time being infinite means that everything will happen to you at some point. —ℓσωℓу ѕуѕσρ вιgℓʝвιgℓ σf gσαтιѕтαи (ωσя∂ѕ σf ωιѕ∂σм/α¢нιєνємєитѕ) 18:36, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

Or do fear death. Dying sucks. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 18:50, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
Good post! Herr FüzzyCätPötätö (talk/stalk) 19:16, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
This whole "afraid of death" deal is way overdone. Nothing actually happens when you are dead. Nothing actually happens before you are born. But nobody is afraid of the billions of years of non-existence which occurred before they were born. So why be afraid of the billions which will pass afterward. (Though the actual "dying" process could be a bit of a downer though.) Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 20:02, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
Yes, I'm not afraid of being dead, just of the bit leading up to it. Nudescendant (talk) 20:08, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
Mmm. That is not a given (everything will happen to you at some point). The universe may see a limited number of phenomena recycled one after another in no discernable pattern or the universe dies by entropy and the rest of time is a dull boring bath of inaction. When my brain dies...I have no special reason to believe I will pop up again in an alternate reality or will thrive again and again in a bang/cruch cycle, or some other incredible manifestation of me. It might be a nice thought (assuming my other versions are not suffering terribly or whole heartedly believe in God) but it is speculative wishful thinking at this point. I'm relaxed about death because I know I've left some worthy footprints.87.218.196.90 (talk) 03:56, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
"But nobody is afraid of the billions of years of non-existence which occurred before they were born." But that's false equivalence, you weren't conscious before you gained consciousness to be consciously afraid of not being conscious yet. But as you are conscious now and can consciously fear the non-existence that's bound to happen then it's sensible to be afraid of it. Also that's probably a weird place to make my first appearance. --NoJohYouAreTheDemons (talk) 08:42, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
(also I want to point out that the tautology above is wrong, because it equivocates all kinds of infinity. You will not, given an infinite time, experience every possible rational number of arbitrary selected single values one at a time). ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 20:04, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
Frankly, I don't understand it anyway. No matter how you define "infinite time" how does that affect this personal me? Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 20:51, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
If you take the view that someone identical to you in every way is you, then given infinite time an infinite number of yous will exist. I assume that's what Bigljbgl means. Christopher (talk) 20:54, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
Beware alarming/alerting the Basilisk. Anna Livia (talk) 21:55, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
Infinity means your consciousness will be reborn an infinite amount of times. —ℓσωℓу ѕуѕσρ вιgℓʝвιgℓ σf gσαтιѕтαи (ωσя∂ѕ σf ωιѕ∂σм/α¢нιєνємєитѕ) 23:22, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
No, it doesn't. This is like ideas of reincarnation. It's not "me" if I have no memory or consciousness of the fact.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 07:12, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
As more or less Asimov said (don't remember exactly his quote), it's the transition between life and death what is troublesome (I really hope the end will be painless and fast, no NDEs of any kind and just going black. That's the thing that scares me).
Alas, Bigljbigl idea is much better defined as a stream of consciousness -you die here and things restart again somewhere and/or sometime in the future, the process from your POV being instantaneous but your old self (memories included) would be gone forever. Other stuff are the ramifications of that when you consider cosmological theories (the Universe being infinite, it restarting again in a Big Bang/Crunch/Rip (maybe)/Slurp (maybe), multiverses...), and are quite food for thought. Panzerfaust (talk) 12:49, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Waco Mini-series

So apparently the Paramount Network is set to release a mini-series on the Waco siege in 2018. Thoughts? RoninMacbeth (talk) 15:27, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Wait and see if it's any good or not is my first thought. Any news on who is writing and directing it? You might get an idea what it could be like if you look at their other work. Nudescendant (talk) 17:21, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
It's created by the same people who directed Devil and As Above, So Below. Not looking too good so far. RoninMacbeth (talk) 20:00, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
As Above, So Below gets a bit of a kicking on metactritic.[1] "It's clear from the start that Dowdle isn't taking any of this seriously. The same cannot be said for the game and luckless cast of young actors, who are so whiny and hysterical right from the start of their plunge into the tombs that they win hearty unintentional laughs throughout." The prospects don't look great, do they? Nudescendant (talk) 08:14, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

HIV/AIDS death rates in the us

A jolly topic, i know.

To put it bluntly, i am a fantastically lucky chap, even if this is not immediately apparent to the casual observer. by all rights, all, the many poor life choices that i have made and continue to make, i should have been dead in a ditch years ago. ive been lucky to have loving supportive parents. ive never been rich, but ive never been hungry. ive always had clothes on my back. ive been lucky enough to have the opportunity of education (squandered, but i still had the opportunity). ive been lucky enough to have friends and family who have kept me from sleeping rough and starving when things have gone tits up. ive been lucky enough to be born in the uk so i have access to a state safety net when things go wrong (its not great,i am sure other places do better, but i get by). and finally, i have been blessed with rude health. i have never been ill. the most ill i been was my appendix bursting. that lasted less than a week, and i was lucky enough to have access to the NHS. (later i was lucky enough to get to know the nurse who looked after me, but thats another story). i mentioned elsewhere that i was diagnosed with HIV last year. this exemplifies my good luck. not too long ago this would be a death sentence. at the least it would mean years of poor health and stigma. i have a friend who buried 2 boyfriends. but not me. i am lucky. i am lucky to be born in a time where effective medication, with no unpleasant side effects, will prevent me ever getting ill, stop me being infectious so i wont infect my loved ones, and i wont ever die of AIDS. and i am lucky enough to have access to the NHS so i dont have to worry about any aspect of my treatment. i am aware that in many parts of the world people are not so lucky. in many parts of the world, generally more impoverished parts, HIV has been an apocalypse. but what of the US? a rich country. how does someone with HIV manage? is it covered by insurance? is it a pre existing condition? what if you dont have insurance? do you get access to live saving medication or are you kicked to the kerb and left to rot? i am paricularly interested in death rates. No one need die from AIDS these days, but ive not been able to get clear picture, clear comparisons from location to location, or personal stories. thoughtss anyone? AMassiveGay (talk) 16:35, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Pre-existing conditions haven't had any impact on ability to acquire healthcare in, like, a decade now. Yes, it's covered by insurance. Most of healthcare is covered by government, though; the dirty little secret about the US is that literally 2/3 of healthcare spending passes through government hands first, government employees, Medicare (elderly), Medicaid (poor), other state programs, and so on. The problem with healthcare in the US, the biggest one anyway, is the ability of mega-corps to bribe the US government into preventing the US from negotiating better prices unlike any other country in the world. And it isn't like it's the US government is effectively transferring money from, say, Texas to a company in Connecticut, oh no, it's the US government transferring money to Merck Medco and other foreign companies, in countries that routinely mock the US for having terrible healthcare in spite of being part of the reason the US has terrible healthcare. CorruptUser (talk) 19:13, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
i have always imagined drug companies must be laughing at the US. they must get so more cash oh you. and its the only place i have heard where you get adverts for prescripition drugs.
re: my original point, i read an account from a lady in NY. she had hiv but had no insurance. she didnt qualify for medicaid until she gets really ill then she qualifies and goes on medication. she gets better, stops qualifying, cant get medication agin until the next time she gets really ill. this cannot be good for her long term health. how common is this situation? how does this effect infections rates? in UK, rates have dropped significantly since they started giving medication early infection. how does this go in with a US healthcare model? AMassiveGay (talk) 20:00, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
It doesn't that's how, you're either rich and you live, or you're poor and you die.'Legionwhat do you want from me 20:08, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

with regards to priority

So we're supposed to remove the template from every page here? —Kazitor, pending 10:39, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

I removed most of them before realising that blanking the template had the same effect. Remove them when you see them but it's probably not worth getting a bot to do it or removing them all manually. Christopher (talk) 15:15, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
Right, so there's no reason why I shouldn't since I'm such a dull person? —Kazitor, pending 23:45, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
Other than it being a waste of your time, no. Christopher (talk) 15:36, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Why do some editors here support state atheism?

I know the ones that do also support leaving freedom of religion be, but I still oppose this. Could the editors who support this present their arguments here? —ℓσωℓу ѕуѕσρ вιgℓʝвιgℓ σf gσαтιѕтαи (ωσя∂ѕ σf ωιѕ∂σм/α¢нιєνємєитѕ) 20:41, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

What about those who don't - or who support 'state indifferentism' and other positions? Anna Livia (talk) 21:29, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
I’m talking about the specific editors who support state atheism. —ℓσωℓу ѕуѕσρ вιgℓʝвιgℓ σf gσαтιѕтαи (ωσя∂ѕ σf ωιѕ∂σм/α¢нιєνємєитѕ) 22:25, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
What is "state atheism", actually outlawing religion and punishing those who practice it, or having the state's official position be that god doesn't exist and basing all decisions on that, but letting the public believe what they want? X Stickman (talk) 23:33, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
@X Stickman I mean the second thing. Personally, I support state indifference. —ℓσωℓу ѕуѕσρ вιgℓʝвιgℓ σf gσαтιѕтαи (ωσя∂ѕ σf ωιѕ∂σм/α¢нιєνємєитѕ) 00:30, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

I support state anti-theism, the fundamental reason being that religion is a cultural element and is never a personal thing. Even in the best case scenario where someone kept their religious views entirely quiet, they will still vote for those values at the polls, with predictable and recurring results. In realistic scenarios the religious group together and try to control those in their community's area of influence to conform to their personal beliefs, and when religious majorities are involved those areas of influence often mean the whole country. Practically, I don't support Marxist style violence against the religious, but rather targeted education campaigns and so on. The religious would be allowed to continue as they please in my ideal state, provided they endure or ignore the torrent of information directed against them. Lord Aeonian (talk) 06:43, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

The current poll

Why would so few people vote for the BoNs? They are highly worthy of everyone's vote. —Kazitor, pending 01:06, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

You sneaky bastard. Fuzzy "Cat" Potato, Jr. (talk/stalk) 01:45, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
I don't get it, what'd I do? :P —Kazitor, pending 02:04, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
@Kazitor Fak u, and what poll? —ℓσωℓу ѕуѕσρ вιgℓʝвιgℓ σf gσαтιѕтαи (ωσя∂ѕ σf ωιѕ∂σм/α¢нιєνємєитѕ) 02:17, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
Last option of the top poll. —Kazitor, pending 02:26, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
There is a poll about me?? {surprised looking face} –Mad physicist (talk) 13:12, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
What The F***?! (surprised too) Panzerfaust (talk) 22:24, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Why are there still only two votes for the BoNs? Come on, guys! <evilface />Kazitor, pending 23:37, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

The thing is I hate that guy... -Xbony2 (talk) 01:45, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Monday Morning Dumpster Dive: The Raw Story

The Raw Story needs more content and more citations. It's a stub. It has 0 references.

The site itself is ranked in the top 4000 globally [2][3], giving it about 25 million monthly views.

The site has a section at Fake_news#RawStory.

FuzzyCatPotato!™ (talk/stalk) 01:33, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Seriously America

It's taken the US 15 months to record their newest worst mass shooting ever, and at the same time Congress are debating a law that would allow people to buy silencers. What the actual cunting fuck is wrong with you people? LongLostLegend (talk) 12:59, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

They didn't do anything when someone killed a load of little children - why would they do anything now? 109.147.90.91 (talk) 21:55, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
58 dead (who, sadly, will likely be more) + >500 wounded -just by a single man-. This is begging for an article here, and mark my words conspiracy teories may already be blossoming around this shooting. Panzerfaust (talk) 22:30, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

1,516 mass shootings in 1,735 days AMassiveGay (talk) 22:45, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

I made a userbox, {{User Antiseptic}}, if you want that on your userpage. —Kazitor, pending 23:35, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
you know its funny, guns arnt banned in the us but you know what is banned? kinder eggs. AMassiveGay (talk) 10:43, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Figured we could use a laugh

The ED article on RationalWiki is hot garbage, but they have me listed as admin. Plutoniumboss (talk) 23:39, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Man, once they lost to fucking KnowYourMeme, they really fell off from trolling into "let's just be nazis, that's antagonistic right?" level unfunny. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 02:51, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Got a question

Hey guys, I'm new, I have a little complication, what's the bias/logical fallacy that's defined as "the tendency to think that one is the main character of the universe, and other people are just extras"?

MrEpic (talk) 00:13, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Not a logical fallacy, but are you referring to solipsism? —Kazitor, pending 00:30, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
Narcissism, more likely. Nobody else would hold such beliefs seriously. 5.165.61.67 (talk) 14:46, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
While maybe no one holds them "seriously" in that they'd say it's literally a true statement, many people feel that way. A majority at least. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 14:57, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
If you are going there, you, probs, should extend it to "majority of animals", just for the sake of severity of telepathic claim (nice chance to be correct too). Also, in delusions intensity quite matters, I guess. 5.165.61.67 (talk) 15:13, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
Holy christ, no. Animals do not generate self-narratives. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:22, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
Why are you so sure about it? It seems to be evolutionary in origin. I mean, possession of a language or developed frontal lobes are good guesses at threshold, but I would not call them rock-solid. 5.165.61.67 (talk) 15:37, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
Animals: well noted for the complex rationalizations and complex ideological framings of their own actions. Come the fuck on with this. I feel no need to justify your unsupported ad hoc hypothesis. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 16:00, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

i am the main character in my world. is this not true for everyone? AMassiveGay (talk) 16:08, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Back from my trip.

I'm back from my 2 week vacation in the Aloha region, and can I ask who nominated me for United States Presidency 2020?

Might as well start a Corsola protection program. The Rational Gamer, WonderKirby577Let's chat!box 00:17, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Down the very bottom of the list? That... might have been me >:) —Kazitor, pending 00:35, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
Come on man, I just wanna protect Corsola! (Also, would that be worthy of it's own Funspace article?) The Rational Gamer, WonderKirby577Let's chat!box 00:50, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
Huntails are far more endangered. When's the last time you've seen a Huntail? Never! --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 02:23, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
Huntails don't have predators that leave bits of them scattered across the ocean. And I see plenty of them up for trade. The Rational Gamer, WonderKirby577Let's chat!box 03:23, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Catalonia

You know what this is about. The referendum that Spain refuses to acknowledge and ended in Spain essentially invading its own territory. —ℓσωℓу ѕуѕσρ вιgℓʝвιgℓ σf gσαтιѕтαи (ωσя∂ѕ σf ωιѕ∂σм/α¢нιєνємєитѕ) 01:44, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

I put Catalonia in the TODO list a while back. I'm willing to bet we're getting a new European country, but how pretty it is going to be on the way to that point is debatable. -Xbony2 (talk) 01:49, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
I'm from Spain. It's a very complex story, going on or the last 50 years. Much of Europe has been paying attention to this and outside many don't realise how grave and important the topic is. Catalonia has been asking for a referendum for two decades and the central government never budged. It's unconstitutional...end of story. The President went to war with any notion of Catalonian independence some years ago and has pretty much said every possible provocative stupidity he could, infuriating and enraging most Catalonians who were never independistas before. The Catalonians decided to go ahead and do the referendum without Madrid' approval. The central government decided to stop it by force. First by confiscating voting equiptment and pressing charges against 700 local mayors and arresting Catalan cabinet ministers. This made Catalonians seethingly angry. Then on voting day, the police broke into Schools where voting was happened, dragged women out by their hair, threw old people down stairs, billy clubbed hundreds of people in peaceful protest and bloodied the faces of hundreds of people including Catalonian firefighters trying to protect peaceul protesters from the National police. "Hey, let's send thousands of outside police to Catalonia and have them stop the voting by any means necessary...WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG"? And of course the vote went for independence. The President of Spain virtually guaranteed that through his imbecilic behaviour.
It's hurtful that they want to leave and I think it is extremely misguided...but they should have been allowed the vote. The EU is about further integration...not creating new borders and they have a level of autonomy that no other region in Europe could expect to get. It will be politically and financially catastrophic. But they should be allowed to choose...constitution or not. What hurts the most though is...the Spanish media is not showing the violence. It is so hard core biased (shamefully so) that its ignoring it and focusing on totally irrelevant side distractions. I had to read the BBC, NYTimes and the CBC to see the worst of the violence from police and translate Catalonian news sites to know what the Catalonian president was saying. The second...which is much worse, is the total silence coming from the EU. I am a massive supporter of the EU (I think it is the greatest political project we have ever seen) but every few years they spectacularly fail at something that should be a no brainer (like with Ukraine or Cyprus). They really haven't said anything beyond mumbling words...despite the horrid violence. It's grotesque...and my Spanish friends are oblivious to any of this and angry. It's like I'm living in a twilight zone. ShabiDOO 09:48, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
I agree very much with the above comment, especially how Rajoy's (Prime Minister (not President)) stupidity screwed up things so much. I was going to add something on those lines, but I see other has arrived before. You forgot to mention that workers of TVE -the Spanish public broadcast television service- protested 'cause they were ordered to downplay what happened there (I guess no mention of policial brutality and the like. It would not have been the first time that happens).
Plus this is a recent idea. Catalonia was never, as far as I know, an independent country or at the very least as is conceived now by independentistas. The region was also on the wrong side during the War of the Spanish Succession, on the XVIII century, and Philip V -the ancestor of the current King of Spain- punished that.Panzerfaust (talk) 13:18, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

From watching some of this guys videos what would you say this guys opinions on the political spectrum are?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1DTYW241WD64ah5BFWn4JA/videos

I have no idea. His Twitter is your classic apolitically-centrist-but-has-racist-memes pablum [4][5][6][7][8][9][10]; his discord appears to attract young meme-friendly edgelords. 32℉uzzy; 0℃atPotato (talk/stalk) 03:17, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
Agreed It was either Sargonite Liberal for me or Centrist to me. I just needed to some conformation ShiningSwordofThoughts (talk) 03:22, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Fundraiser: Spread the word!

We need the money. Hit that social media! Here's the Facebook page post, please share widely - David Gerard (talk) 11:06, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Why don't we have a Patreon?WikipediaHamburgerPlate Spinning-Burger.gif (talkstalk) 14:38, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
Because we're old boffins who don't understand the youth these days. αδελφός ΓυζζγςατΡοτατο (talk/stalk) 15:38, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Apparently, we stand with Putin

Dismissing Phobosgate.png

CJ-Moki (talk) 16:19, 3 October 2017 (UTC)