RationalWiki:Saloon bar/Archive482

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A fundie school worthy of an article[edit]

https://trinitysouthwest.com/

This unaccredited Christian College boasts an Archeology program. It is apparently located at a strip mall in New Mexico. --Trans Fem Agenda 17:46, 20 September 2025 (UTC)

It looks like a scam operation, like Trump University. But unlike TU, at TSU the victims will probably never come forward to protest as their motives would not have been venal. The WP article probably has most the readily available information. Their Linked-in profile claims 11-50 employees. AI search result: less than 25. Very likely less than 11. For contrast an AP investigation found TU had at least 107 employees. I wonder if TSU is still at the "who cares" stage of existence. Their "executive dean" is alleged to be conducting archeological research in Jordan. The "University" may be a scam to finance his "research." Zatoichi (talk) 23:23, 20 September 2025 (UTC)
There is a similar fundie school that boasts an Archeology program- Veritas International University. Unlike Trinity Southwest University, VIU is accredited by TRACS. It is also worthy of an article. --Trans Fem Agenda 12:49, 22 September 2025 (UTC)
Or maybe don't make more crappy stubs on missional but non-noteworthy topics. 143.223.148.64 (talk) 15:05, 22 September 2025 (UTC)
This may be worthy of a paragraph in the Fundie school article, but it doesn't look like it is worthy of a dedicated article. I've already started merging several other stubby similar articles into the Fundie school page since they've been sitting around for ten years or more with no substantial improvement. —cosmikdebris talk stalk 21:42, 22 September 2025 (UTC)
Remember there was a troll years ago obsessed with fundie colleges? Coincidence? Troll 143.223.148.64 (talk) 22:35, 23 September 2025 (UTC)

To be honest, this guy’s obsession with campus rape at fundamentalist schools is creepy. 96.71.114.113 (talk) 15:35, 30 September 2025 (UTC)

Most of the fundie school articles talk about rape. It is not just me who included it. If I was obsessed with rape then I would frequently talk about it; which I don't. --Trans Fem Agenda 18:00, 6 October 2025 (UTC)

AfD starting to get a serious advantage over CDU/CSU in Germany…[edit]

That'll teach the German "middle" (classical right) a lesson on how not to treat plurality of opinions. The political culture there has moved so much rightward that it's probably to the right of most of the Anglo-Saxon world (except the USA). In France, our PM is literally being forced to go back on some points of the authoritarian neo-liberal Bayrou budget (while keeping and distracting from the most brutal parts), while in Germany, which doesn't have half of the French social state (not even a really universal public insurance), they too debate on the "sustainability of the social state" (after spending a ridiculous amount of money on the military to warmonger). New world (talk) 10:38, 21 September 2025 (UTC)

I see it as part of the job of the 'mainstream right' to always question core 'mainstream left' assumptions, like the size/shape of the welfare state. Just like it is the job of them to question back the ideas that capitalism is always good and the elevation of finance over everything else. KarmaPolice (talk) 11:17, 21 September 2025 (UTC)
Love being in the generation who came of age during the resurgence of 20th century far right authoritarianism in every country simultaneously. This time it looks like it can't be stopped.OrangeFlavorAid (talk) 11:58, 21 September 2025 (UTC)
One interesting wrinkle from a Europe perspective is that there seems to be an emergence of a "softer hard right" in some quarters which maintains the xenophobic policies and "traditional values" shit of the populist right, but is softer on the whole burn-the-institutions-to-the-ground thing you saw with the hard right in Europe in the 1990s, and is a wee bit less dogmatic, a wee bit more practical, and a wee bit less full on authoritarian. Giorgia Meloni is a great example of this sort of figurehead.
My impression from this Economist article is that the AfD is still in the burn-to-the-ground stage. The Economist thus believes that this limits the AfD's popularity to where it has always done well -- namely, the former communist bloc and poorer and/or more rural areas. We'll see if The Economist view is right, I suppose. 47.197.76.134 (talk) 16:07, 21 September 2025 (UTC)
Eh, with National Rally it's mostly just pretend, they adopted the exact opposite strategy to what the US-Republican Party adopted: they try to be the most "mainstream" looking politicians ever, but they sort of fail at that when looking at their electorate and speeches. I honestly don't know what happened exactly in Italy, but so far the projects National Rally has been able to pass (immigration law voted with macronists in 2023 and severely undermining the century old right of soil for acquiring citizenship, to the benefit of the right of blood) have not been very "moderate". The AfD has been moving in the opposite direction (so much that National Rally "distanced" themselves from the AfD as a PR stunt to attract "moderate far-right" voters). Höcke is starting to take control of the party through various intrigues, and it's scary. But it's not like the "moderate" parts of the party are better—they are basically ultra-liberals who want to do a Milei on Germany. New world (talk) 16:21, 21 September 2025 (UTC)

Not yet. They are currently tied in the polls: https://dawum.de/Bundestag/#Umfrageverlauf Äxl (talk) 07:22, 22 September 2025 (UTC)

There are so many problems with the current immigration system in most Euro countries that I can sympathize with the people voting for AfD, Marine Le Pen, Geert Wilders, etc etc. It's not the right thing, but I understand it. Almost none of the people ordered to deport from the EU actually get deported because the Euro Human Rights Commission prevents it. There are migrants that really do just get free housing and benefits while not working, ever. There's a massive gender imbalance in the migrants that have come. Women are getting harassed at rates not seen 20 years ago.
The thing is, all of these problems are fixable with only a few reforms, they've been fixable for decades, but none of the parties have the will do it. So yeah, I understand why some Euros would be attracted to the "no immigrants at all" parties. CorruptUser 21:43, 30 September 2025 (UTC)
The problems are being exaggerated, @CorruptUser, and sending back criminals is definitely not the method. They are now in the country and you can't just decide to send them away. The truth: defending the popular classes today means defending the immigrants ("defending immigration" means absolutely nothing, it's a natural process which shouldn't be "debated"). They are the new popular classes, it is obvious that crime rates are in the majority linked to this fact: Immigrants might statistically commit more crimes in some countries, but that is because of their socio-economic status. These people had to leave because of things they don't control: if you want to talk about "fixable" problems, fine, but those problems concern Western Europe's foreign policy (preventing immigration by assuring better living conditions worldwide), not internal affairs. The only legitimate "problem" with the European handling of immigration would be what countries take what people. Merkel's way of playing humanist was ridiculous, as Germany didn't have the necessary equipment to handle the amount of people coming into the country. The solution: instead of harassing the Greeks, how about forcing all those little fascos in Eastern Europe and our deer Mister Valls in France to take their fair share so that every country of the European Union participates in the humanist effort. New world (talk) 12:08, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
That there are people who think "you can't just decide to send them away" is exactly why a lot of people want far stricter rules and vetting of migrants in the first place... CorruptUser 16:11, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
Why is it that centrists always rush to "understand the right" but only chastise and rebuke the left? Antares (talk) 07:06, 2 October 2025 (UTC)
Because everyone already understands the Left CorruptUser 16:35, 3 October 2025 (UTC)
This is why definitions are important: "understanding" the right when you're right (or "centrist") is fine but nonsensical, understanding the left (including radical) is fine, understanding the far-right (extrême-droite) absolutely isn't. Extremism is the fundamental rejection of the republican principles (laicity, democracy, indivisibility, and social politics), which only the revolutionary (far-)left and communatarian (far-)right do. The latter two are therefore extremist (and figures of the radical left aren't). Hence, establishing an equivalency between, to take the example of the USA, Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump is completely ludicrous and dangerous for the Republic. New world (talk) 10:24, 4 October 2025 (UTC)

New book written by correspondent of centre-right Figaro journal reveals Macron wanted National Rally to win the 2024 elections[edit]

Wally Bordas, a correspondent of the traditional right-wing (occasionally far-right now too since 2024) journal Le Figaro, usually considered the right-wing equivalent of the centre-left Le Monde, claims that Macron's plan in 2024 was for the National Rally to come to power… He literally made phone calls to the National Rally to help them against La France Insoumise… Apparently, the very light "blocking" situation since 2022 (no absolute majority thanks to the leftist alliance coming second, but a fairly implicit alliance between macronists and the classical right LR) and the subsequent situation at the European elections pushed Macron to try let National Rally govern to show that they only bring chaos. All of this from a centre-right to occasionally far-right/National Rally-friendly journal… here it is. The situation very clearly resembles that of Hindenburg in the 1930s… The left alliance stopped these plans from happening though, and now Macron is in a real blocking situation as long as he doesn't do compromise. He tried with the far-right, but now he considers them unreliable and wants to give concessions to the left (but, hey, naming a leftist PM like you do in a coalition where the left has more representation isn't in his agenda apparently). New world (talk) 21:21, 21 September 2025 (UTC)

Compare and contrast[edit]

George Orwell - 'War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength'

Donald Trump [1]

What would Orwell say of the Donald? Anna Livia (talk) 18:40, 22 September 2025 (UTC)

Its the Rapture today[edit]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/rapture-happening-tomorrow-pastor-claims-180138800.html

So today is the Rapture. How many idiots believe this? --Trans Fem Agenda 10:40, 23 September 2025 (UTC)

This has been the cause of some serious psychological torment on my mind over the last month. Patty Pat 14:59, 23 September 2025 (UTC)
Really weird how a rando South African "preacher" that I literally cannot find any spec of Internet history on leapt out of nowhere to become the latest poprapture craze. From what I can tell, the source of the video is a reasonably long running "CENTTWINZ.TV" YouTube channel, run by two South African Internet influencer / preacher / minor actress types, that gets modest, but not huge, views. Adding to the weirdness is that my first impression is that this YouTube channel is not the typical hellfire damnation Jesus most Rapture "prophecies" comes from, and more like an Oprah Winfrey-ish lifestyle / touchy-feely oriented thing. 47.197.76.134 (talk) 15:24, 23 September 2025 (UTC)
Is this the right place to make a rapture/raptor joke? Koafox (talk) 17:43, 23 September 2025 (UTC)
The crapture is the day-after event when one realizes that one was shat upon by a false prophet. Bongolian (talk) 18:03, 23 September 2025 (UTC)
Maybe the rapture did happen but only a handful of people were worthy. And there are always as few people who disappear on and given day. So how could one test for raptured or disappeared?Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 19:04, 23 September 2025 (UTC)
Crappo. My last day on earth, what did I do? Clearing the large clothing repairs/alterations pile, cleaning leather goods for winter and then spending £75 on tiles for the bathroom... KarmaPolice (talk) 19:11, 23 September 2025 (UTC)
You did more than me. I just played Dragon Quest 3 and read stuff. If the world was going to end, screw being productive. Kencolt (talk) 11:27, 24 September 2025 (UTC)
Just imagine he benefits if it did happen - the USA could become a civilised country again - you could have affordable health care, minority rights, and just a general benefit from having fewer arses-holes around!! 19:50 UTC on 23rd right now - leaving it to the last minute I guess..... Aloysius the Gaul (talk)
Since it's South Africa, the big thing brought up in the OG video was there would be no World Cup 2026 due to, y'know, the tribulation and all. Ohnoez!
South Africa's GMT+2 though, so from my point of view, this "prediction" needs to happen in about an hour and change.
(Dear future prophet scam artists: for greater success, *always* put your doomsday predictions far past when you die, because you can milk it for all it is worth with you are alive, and never have egg on your face when the prediction fails, as they all do. Bonus points if you fuzzy up the language your "visions of the future" to the point where it can predict everything and nothing.) 47.197.76.134 (talk) 20:54, 23 September 2025 (UTC)
I am seeing plenty of memes on social media. If the Rapture is real, can I get free stuff from people who ascended to heaven? --Trans Fem Agenda 21:23, 23 September 2025 (UTC)
Yes and no. It's all about how many do ascend to heaven. If it's only a few, chances are the 'ascendees' will be simply treated as dead and stuff distributed accordingly. And the normal machinery of govt etc will continue to function. However, if 'too many' people vanish but also 'not enough', you'll face the spectre of an orgy of 'taking' because the machinery has split apart but there's still too many folks about. KarmaPolice (talk) 22:43, 23 September 2025 (UTC)
Heads up heathens! YOU can help out with the rapture. Act NOW!Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 05:50, 24 September 2025 (UTC)
It's been awhile since I read Revelation, but wasn't the folks left behind meant to suffer through oceans of shit, due to it being the End Of Time®? In that case, euthanising them might be the kindest of options... KarmaPolice (talk) 08:39, 24 September 2025 (UTC)
Can't remember. But even so - "We will come round and take care of your pets after the rapture" is probably an easier sell than, "We will come round and kill your pets after the rapture"!Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 10:34, 24 September 2025 (UTC)
And you can be much more smug when they come and ask for them back.... Aloysius the Gaul (talk) 22:40, 24 September 2025 (UTC)
As the RW Rapture article points out, the Biblical justification for the fundie "dispensational premillennialism" Rapture is actually very shaky. The justification for this bullshit isn't even found in Revelations (of which I personally side with the scholars who see it as code for Roman time events, but never mind that), it's based of of a small snippet of 1 Thessalonians. My half-joke/half-truth about this la-te-da is that it's a bunch of malarky John Nelson Darby came up with after severely injuring himself falling off a horse.
Generally, I see Rapture obsession as a sign of supercilious idiocy, that you are somehow a chosen one, and certainly not those gosh darn evil Other who will suffer when The Time Comes for their... otherness, I guess. Now, the Bible has numerous versus tut-tutting the self-righteous. But never mind those inconvenient verses in modern Christianity, eh? 47.197.76.134 (talk) 15:02, 24 September 2025 (UTC)
I find it perplexing that so many rationalists ridicule such phenomena as this rapture-type syndrome, when it is clearly dependent upon a group of mentally unstable individuals. Fascism, for example, unempathetic as it usually may be, is solidly sane compared to the belief in Rapture theology. That is to say, making fun of crazy people makes me uncomforable. Sorry...Zatoichi (talk) 17:17, 24 September 2025 (UTC)
I certainly don't equate religious belief with insanity and I think it's insulting to do so. I equate religious belief with with indoctrination. Having said that, any weird belief - from fascism to flat-earthism to homeopathy - is worthy of ridicule.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 07:20, 25 September 2025 (UTC)
There is also a lot of overlap between these weird beliefs that is itself worthy of examination (and ridicule). Antares (talk) 11:31, 25 September 2025 (UTC)
Sure, if you have one objectively weird belief like "the Earth is 6,000 years old" then, in order to defend that belief, you need a lot of subsequent nonsense beliefs. But it's still not an indication that people are "mentally unstable". That would be like equating "wrong" or "misinformed" with "mental instability".Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 12:10, 25 September 2025 (UTC)
Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you here. Antares (talk) 12:14, 25 September 2025 (UTC)
OK, I think maybe I wasn't quite sure of your point. Good to see that we are of the same mind. :-)Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 12:17, 25 September 2025 (UTC)
Nah. On the receiving end, yes it is true that there's some crazy people who believe in Rapture theology. But there's also relatively sane people who believe this shit simply because they are self-righteous assholes.
On the "preachers" who spout Rapture theology, there's also some kooks, but also plenty of opportunists, charlatans, and con artists.
Trumpist style fascism is all about giving self-righteous rubes the validation the want, that They are the Right Kind of Us, and the World's Sins are the fault of the Other. And simultaneously drain the rubes' bank account.
A lot of "fundie phenomenon" is frankly the same. 47.197.76.134 (talk) 18:35, 24 September 2025 (UTC)

Remember (to borrow from 'other sources') that 'the Mark of the Beast' reads 'Not fit for consumption.' Anna Livia (talk) 18:20, 24 September 2025 (UTC)

I agree that there are con artists who convince people to give up their worldly possessions. The people who believe it are the victims. It is not relatively sane to believe that I will be lifted from the world and saved while everyone else is left behind. That's like the top end of a serious manic depressive condition. But oh well, I didn't say not to laugh at them. It just seems vain and pointless to do so. These people can't be talked out of being loopy. Zatoichi (talk) 20:13, 24 September 2025 (UTC)
What is strange is, according to a ton of doctrine, the rapture would take, like, nobody who is begging to be taken in the rapture, because that's such a selfish desire and would end all evangelizing. 'We gotta save everyone until Tuesday when we all get to finally fuck off forever, grr, Mondays are the worst' like, don't you enjoy being alive? The absolute eagerness to speed run this life and get to heaven is fuckin culty. I won't even deny the fucking idea, maybe the rapture happened, but guess what, you weren't taken up to heaven, because your yappin ass 'It's gonna be me and not a lot of you' smug assholes didn't deserve to go either. Torrent (talk) 11:24, 25 September 2025 (UTC)

Am I in a manic phase?[edit]

I received the diagnosis of you know what by the name of this subsection on Monday. Apparently, all of what I had seen as a linear development was actually cyclical, and all I did in response to the psychiatrist's comments was laugh and say "Yeah that's it", without any doubt whatsoever. Next, while taking public transportation, I thought "Oh god, what an idiot, he's really stupid, and I thought I had to be scared of him…". I see him bc of what appears to be a previous manic Pease march last year. But then, I thought "even though this is complete bullshit, can I use it to my advantage by staying up late at night and working at that time and having the day for?". Maybe my psychiatrists identification of my currently state and its cause wasn't so bad after all. But then, the next day, I suddenly realised that since Saturday the last week everything I was legit thinking or doing or thinking was fine to do was completely insane. Now, bc I'm starting to do craze things on social media and telling lies to everyone I'm starting to see ppl who saw my manic phase last year and who apparently remember it. I hoped I could separate forever from it but now I'm being bullied bc of it. I did really unforgivable stuff but… ugh whatever I'm not gonna try you get it right. And I'm trying to stop but I realise almost everything I think right now is bullshit EXCEPT for the fact that I "know" that deeeep inside me, and that I sort of but not really as its bullshit but ey might comment on social media on it have a cause for all of this. I know I should be seeing my psych (I wanted an extra late meeting from him bc I felt sooo happy and good and everything) but I still don't really believe its not bullshit and the internet is there for posting bullshit. Anyway this is 100% serious I don't like other social media I'm not really anonymous there I can only ask this here as I don't trust others. I also start thinking the entire world is talking abt me and what I did. Pls I know medical advice is not allowed but I AM NOT GOING TO GET MEDICAL ADVICE FROM A PROFESSIONAL NOW and that's just what it is. 2A01:E0A:A84:5C70:B190:D3EC:ECB:73C0 (talk) 17:27, 25 September 2025 (UTC)

Are you asking if your entry in the Saloon Bar looks like the rambling of a person in a manic state? If so, yeah, kind of. I mean, not necessarily, but there's not a whole lot that makes me think, 'Nope, definitely not manic'. But here's something to consider. I've always been prone to pretty bad migraines, ones that can take days or even a week sometimes to get over. Usually that means lying in a dark room in agony, but lately I haven't been getting the excruciating head pain part of the migraine. I still get all the lead-up symptoms that usually precede a headache, like visual strobing, and food tasting really good. They call these 'body migraines', but when I get them I behave in strange ways as my thinking is impaired. And since I'm not stuck in a dark room in terrible pain when these body migraines happen, I'm doing all kinds of things that are not part of my normal routine. My point is, I could easily see myself getting diagnosed as having a 'manic episode' if I were to present to psychiatric professional while in the midst of a body migraine. It is possible that you might have a physical, rather than psychological, impetus for your behavior. It may not be a body migraine, but there are other conditions that can mimic manic behavior, like blood-sugar spiking and plunging from undiagnosed diabetes. If you think your psyche-professional's diagnosis is inaccurate, you could be right. 2A0C:5700:3133:1705:BE24:11FF:FED1:B9D9 (talk) 09:07, 26 September 2025 (UTC)
I received a diagnosis of b. diss. (I literally avoid saying or writing it now lol) and I think what my psych called a "mild version of m. phase" or hypom. might be going away after a week of pretty much ruining everything but I don't know if I its gone tomorrow. Basically I know something's wrong but I just don't know much more and I still don't believe and yet believe in that stupid diagnosis I swear I'm normal most times but now I'm super irritated and paranoid and yet sort of high and happy. I literally did three white nights and what really strikes me is that the diagnosis might potentially be right but I don't know if this thinking the diagnosis is right is also just the "phase" or not. I'll have to sleep over it and hopefully tomorrow everything will be back to normal. I did something really really really really really really really (and etc.) horrible last year and I my behaviour has driven (as already said) some witnesses to bully me to a point where I feel like I don't know what to do with the accusations and yet I don’t care and it's super weird. I don't know if I really have it or not and I might wake up tomorrow fine again and forget. I mean he also told me that I was not very severe and that I would be able to do self-control by not talking to others but that didn't work out crazy for now and while I'm starting to feel better I still have this weird thing I don't know. Maybe it's just bullshit (I still don't fully believe in it). I won't tell this to anyone as I don't want any problems and I have been effectively dealing with this for some time now. What really strikes me now is just the fact that my previous actions last year will continue to haunt me unless I change places. I was fired and completely separated for some time from my previous social environment but now I came back and it's just so frustrating seeing the looks from colleagues. I did something really awkward and horrible and I don't know if it can have any physical cause as it lasted 3 months. 2A01:E0A:A84:5C70:3486:2959:E25:D1ED (talk) 19:07, 26 September 2025 (UTC)
Playing the armchair psychologist is often dangerous, I don't think this is the right place to ask these questions. GeeJayKWhere all evil dwells Where every lie is true 19:11, 26 September 2025 (UTC)
Being psychotic isn't a diagnosis that you're evil or violent. But you can be tiring. I could tell you to relax, but that wouldn't work. I'm impressed you are trying to accept other viewpoints, perspective is the most important thing. Torrent (talk)
Not a joke or a phoney story, an old friend of mine was relapsing into alcoholism this past weekend. I told him all I planned to do was clean my apartment. So he came over and we cleaned my apartment, he gave me all the beer he had bought in his relapse, helped me clean up my apartment, and we reminisced and told stories of new grievances. I did, 100℅ ask him if it was okay to drink in front of him, because sobriety is hard and if he needed me to, I would have been sober too, no problem. I had La Croix seltzers that I told him to drink freely, because those kinda supplant beers for me when it's time to quit. But he helped me fix my vacuum, we had a good time talking about old times, and maybe some time as big strong men who get emotionally overwhelmed, alleged, there's no proof that either of us have emotions. We saw each other in respect and gratitude. I mean, works for me, my one bedroom apartment is gonna pass inspection like I never lived in it, works for my buddy because he wanted to do anything but drink. And he knows I fully respect that, I have never been a guy who says stupid shit like 'you don't drink?' It's my favorite hobby but I'm not great about it never being a problem, and I know how hard it must be to give up. Long story short, it might take some time for me to carve out some space for us to communicate in real time, but if you're taking it,whatever it might be, hard, maybe it could be a thing you could talk to me about. and instead of just talking about it, we could do something to start, and then find time to talk. You're never gonna believe this, but I make friends pretty easily. The trick is to listen to people, maybe you're on the tail end of a crack up. I'm in your corner, I'm a little buried these days, but I CAN find some time for you. Just, let's work it out together. I have plenty of friends with diagnoses and plenty of friends without. I probably need one myself, but believe me when I say you're not too crazy to be my friend. I honestly think you are a good person. Torrent (talk) 09:29, 30 September 2025 (UTC)
I will settle with forgetting forever (hopefully nothing happens again). It's bullshit anyway and that psych is pure evil to just mess around with my content way of doing like that. 2A01:E0A:A84:5C70:4119:342:6835:1D0E (talk) 19:03, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
Booooo. And you know I'm gonna say Boo, but you don't known why. Guess why. Torrent (talk) 10:11, 11 October 2025 (UTC)
it's cause you always got one believing in you. Torrent (talk) 10:21, 11 October 2025 (UTC)

Template:Otherlang[edit]

I created this new template to be added to articles with versions in other languages, to automate the creation of wikitables for the links. I wanted some feedback and to ask permission before editing RW:Languages and adding this template to multiple pages across the wiki. Also, do I need to ask permission for these kinds of things ? Avionfoudingue (talk) 04:19, 26 September 2025 (UTC)

France recognises Palestine[edit]

Macron's long process of campaigning for the recognition of a state of Palestine has finally come to an end, but it remains a ridiculous attempt to save face after the disaster (of which we will learn the amplitude) in Gaza has happened already, as former foreign minister Dominique de Villepin (the one who vehemently opposed the Irak war during his mandate) has put it. It's certainly a step in the right direction, but a clear position would have been to denounce the risk of instrumentalisation by the far-right Netanyahou government since October 2023. The HAMAS was indirectly supported by LIKUD (which was opposed to FATAH and sabotaged it). The October 2023 attacks were known and tolerated by the secret services and many leading LIKUD members, there is absolutely zero excuse for the inaction of Europe. (And Germany's position just makes me want the abolition of the German foreign ministry—they are the US-American voice of Europe and at the same time the head of the EU, they are very clearly restrained by historical guilt as well, even Macron's France as the EU's centre would be better than the German government. Mitterrand was right being opposed to German reunification in 1990, the country needed more time and was not reliable because of its subordination to Russia and the USA). New world (talk) 11:17, 27 September 2025 (UTC)

Diplomatic relationships between Israel and most Western nations used to run rather deeply. It takes a bit of time to unwind this stuff. I think a better way to look at Benjamin Netanyahu's horrific actions is that he's pretty much torpedoing Israel's former deep relationship with... almost everyone in the West. The recent symbolic recognitions of Palestine certainly show this. Who does he have left these days?
From my perspective, the more striking question is Israel's future with their current deepest ally, America. Trump and the Boomer-era Republicans may still be a Netanyahu ass-kisser, but when half of Republicans under 50 have an unfavorable view of Israel, kiss-ups are no longer guaranteed in the future, methinks. (A couple decades ago, Democrats also used to also universally be pro-AIPAC style Israel. Netanyahu's 15 years of bullshit torpedoed that, too, first among the youth and now among almost everyone on the "left".)
Macron and his French government I think started halting arms shipments to Israel in 2024, so I don't think this recent Palestinian recognition is the first step for his government. 47.197.76.134 (talk) 16:39, 27 September 2025 (UTC)
Depends on what nations you are talking about… Mitterrand was for a Palestinian state in the 1980s. It was a long journey for French officials and secretly arm shipments continued for some time after Macron's declarations. However, things like accusing everything and nothing of antisemitism (while also, let's not forget, planning for the National Rally, a party founded by Waffen-SS and holocaust deniers, to take power) as well as forbidding pro-Palestinian demonstrations weren't really a clear positioning. New world (talk) 16:50, 27 September 2025 (UTC)