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RationalWiki:Saloon bar/Archive473
Supposedly anti-semitic imagery[edit]
Supposedly, this AI generated image (the one on the left) by LFI of far-right TV personality Cyril Hanouna (who's popular talk show, TPMP, was recently banned and who has expressed dreams to present himself in the presidential elections 2027) is « anti-semitic ». LFI changed the image and attributed the error to the AI (which is most likely what happened). The media have now started a massive campaign on this poster attacking it for « anti-semitic references » (the AI most likely did take into account Hanouna's Jewish Tunisian origins). LFI was convicted now, but for image rights, and not for anti-semitism. New world (talk) 19:29, 21 March 2025 (UTC)
- Note: I did not realise the first link was from a Turkish media close to the government of Erdogan. What is important here is more the image itself than what's written about it by this particular journal. New world (talk) 19:36, 21 March 2025 (UTC)
- My French is not that good anymore and my politics are not that global, so por favor, help me with this one. The black and white photo is called antisemitic, but it's two pictures of this Cyril Hanouna with the same exact quote attributed to La France Insoumise. I don't know what any of the implications are, I have never heard of Cyril Hanouna. Did the politics change with the posters (affiche) or is it simply considered anti Semitic to criticize this person? Torrent (talk) 10:06, 24 March 2025 (UTC)
- The media considers the way Hanouna was represented on the left image in my first link as anti-semitic, because it supposedly takes over anti-semitic themes from the 1930s (Hanouna's angry look). The image on the right was then made to replace the first image on the same poster (the subject of the poster is a demonstration against the far-right, of which Hanouna is a part of). Now, LFI has been convicted of breaking image rights because of the one on the right, what the media criticise though is the AI-generated left one. New world (talk) 17:12, 24 March 2025 (UTC)
- If you want to see him in action, here is the grand Cyril Hanouna. Even with broken French you will get a general idea. New world (talk) 17:17, 24 March 2025 (UTC)
- The media considers the way Hanouna was represented on the left image in my first link as anti-semitic, because it supposedly takes over anti-semitic themes from the 1930s (Hanouna's angry look). The image on the right was then made to replace the first image on the same poster (the subject of the poster is a demonstration against the far-right, of which Hanouna is a part of). Now, LFI has been convicted of breaking image rights because of the one on the right, what the media criticise though is the AI-generated left one. New world (talk) 17:12, 24 March 2025 (UTC)
- My French is not that good anymore and my politics are not that global, so por favor, help me with this one. The black and white photo is called antisemitic, but it's two pictures of this Cyril Hanouna with the same exact quote attributed to La France Insoumise. I don't know what any of the implications are, I have never heard of Cyril Hanouna. Did the politics change with the posters (affiche) or is it simply considered anti Semitic to criticize this person? Torrent (talk) 10:06, 24 March 2025 (UTC)
anonymous is back with dreadnought![edit]
Anonymous is back with operation dreadnough. what are people's thoughts? Koafox (talk) 14:15, 24 March 2025 (UTC)
- The only thing that I've heard about that is that when Twitter got PWNED two weeks ago. Anonymous claimed responsibility, but so did another hacking group.
- In reality, the root cause of the pwnage (no matter who actually did the hack) seems to be some shitty infrastructure that was a very easy target. Oopsies happen, but they will happen even more when you fire nearly everyone and leave a shell of a social media service to smolder on. Something to think about while Elon Musk tries to use the "Twitter playbook" against the entire US government!
- Regarding this "Anonymous" campaign, I have heard nothing since then so I have no idea what else to think at this point. BobJohnson (talk) 14:51, 24 March 2025 (UTC)
Proposal: Trump/MAGA WIGO[edit]
Self explanatory; all the Trumpian stuff is flooding the WIGOs, so like the Covid one can we have a separate WIGO for it all? KarmaPolice (talk) 13:09, 25 March 2025 (UTC)
- Trumpery and Trumpetry are 'real words' if required. Anna Livia (talk) 13:52, 25 March 2025 (UTC)
- I'm thinking about it. I'd certainly like to see more flags apart from the Stars and Stripes on the WIGO World page more often. But where, for example, would the Trump and Vance being a couple of arseholes to Zelenskyy story go? And what about the Trump and Canada, Greenland and Panama stuff? And Trump's hard on for Netanyahu and desire to get his mitts on Gaza? That and there isn't much RW-related stuff happening outside the US being reported by the mainstream media at the moment. Pity. I could do with a nice story, like an LGBTQ+ person being put on a banknote again.Spud (talk) 15:16, 25 March 2025 (UTC)
- When it's a direct foreign angle, then yes it goes in the 'main' WIGO. The most obvious examples to go in the MAGA-WIGO would be stuff which is happening on the state level. KarmaPolice (talk) 16:12, 25 March 2025 (UTC)
- WIGO in the MAGAsphere is a better name imo because MAGA and Trumpism are bigger than the man himself - even if he is its central figure. Semantics aside, I'm not against it. Gabaghoul 🥩 16:16, 25 March 2025 (UTC)
- When it's a direct foreign angle, then yes it goes in the 'main' WIGO. The most obvious examples to go in the MAGA-WIGO would be stuff which is happening on the state level. KarmaPolice (talk) 16:12, 25 March 2025 (UTC)
- I'm thinking about it. I'd certainly like to see more flags apart from the Stars and Stripes on the WIGO World page more often. But where, for example, would the Trump and Vance being a couple of arseholes to Zelenskyy story go? And what about the Trump and Canada, Greenland and Panama stuff? And Trump's hard on for Netanyahu and desire to get his mitts on Gaza? That and there isn't much RW-related stuff happening outside the US being reported by the mainstream media at the moment. Pity. I could do with a nice story, like an LGBTQ+ person being put on a banknote again.Spud (talk) 15:16, 25 March 2025 (UTC)
Joining Whitehouse Facebook group.[edit]
Given the fact that Trump's highly professional appointees are using the Signal app to plan military action I figured that they might be planning them on Facebook next time and I want prior warning.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 13:43, 25 March 2025 (UTC)
- I wouldn't be suprised if some White House staffers were discussing classified info over Discord as we speak. Gabaghoul 🥩 16:19, 25 March 2025 (UTC)
- I think we can expect a lot of such cases in the future, given the kind of dingbats that Trump has crammed his administration to the brim with. This is what happens when you put incompetent toadies in charge who think the world of themselves, while openly displaying their attitude that rules don’t apply to them.
- I wouldn't be suprised if some White House staffers were discussing classified info over Discord as we speak. Gabaghoul 🥩 16:19, 25 March 2025 (UTC)
- What’s interesting is to see whether anyone of the dingbats involved in this flagrant breach of national security will suffer any serious consequences or if the spineless GOP will once again back Trump’s chosen toadies to the hilt. If none of the “Signallers” suffer any serious punishment, then expect even more sloppy procedures in the future.
- Dollars to donuts Don the #clownstickvonfuckface will sign a blanket amnesty for all such dingbats at some point. Aloysius the Gaul (talk) 02:57, 26 March 2025 (UTC)
- This is especially likely, given that this is about national security and anyone can probably imagine that if this is how such sensitive and potentially dangerous information is treated, then procedures and the treatment of confidential and sensitive government information is likely to be even more lackadaisical in other areas.
- If this is any indication of how the Trump administration run things, then no wonder if Beijing and Moscow are able to easily anticipate Washington’s moves, due to being able to read along as the Trump cronies jabber amongst themselves on unsecured channels.
- Then add the likelihood that the chaos in the bureaucracy and IT infrastructure generated by DOGE is a dream scenario for foreign cyber espionage and you’re looking at a massive risk of foreign intelligence (or cyber crime) penetration at multiple levels, which will make each of these leaks even harder to find, as the sheer number can make it difficult to see any patterns or use a process of elimination to home in on any one of them in particular. ScepticWombat (talk) 20:18, 25 March 2025 (UTC)
- I'd disagree with one of those points. I personally think that due to the utter chaos/unpredictability of the Orange One's rule has made it harder for foreign actors to predict Washington's moves but for the likes of Putin and Xi, it's a lot more friendly Washington which makes it easier to deal with them on the whole. Take Taiwan, for example. I have argued here in the SB and elsewhere for a long time that due to the fact that island is a huge producer of advanced microchips it meant that despite whatever waffle and hedging Washington put in ultimately it simply couldn't allow the Chinese to take those plants anymore than they'd have allowed the Soviets to seize the Arabian oil fields in the 70s/80s because it simply wasn't in Washington's interest long-term to lose these positions [and Beijing knew this and made their plans accordingly]. However, what is utterly plain is that the Orange One and associated drek he's dredged up is that they don't give a flying fuck about 'American interests', only self-enrichment, personal power, ego-blowing and making America 'safe' for them personally so they can die of old age [though I think some are so fucking thick they don't realise being universally hated is possible/important].
- Then add the likelihood that the chaos in the bureaucracy and IT infrastructure generated by DOGE is a dream scenario for foreign cyber espionage and you’re looking at a massive risk of foreign intelligence (or cyber crime) penetration at multiple levels, which will make each of these leaks even harder to find, as the sheer number can make it difficult to see any patterns or use a process of elimination to home in on any one of them in particular. ScepticWombat (talk) 20:18, 25 March 2025 (UTC)
- In this new Gilded Age, anything and everything not directly tied to the previous can go fuck themselves. I mean, let's think of that Signal chat again; I could easily see the likes of bearded couch-fucker arguing that the Taiwanese were 'losers', that they were 'stealing American profits', being 'whiny' on wanting the US to defend them against China and it not being in the [very, very narrow definition of] 'American interests' to stop any invasion. Hell, I could even see him pushing the narrative that the Taiwanese people 'aren't real' and y'know, if the Orange Negus went to Beijing he could hang out with Pooh-Bear, drawing lines on a map of 'spheres of empire' a la Yalta to Make Everything Great. Let's not forget the very possible risk that by mid-'25 the USA is in quite severe political ferment due to the Negus's plans to become the Orange King; that in this situation Beijing et al might make moves because they believe there's a good chance American troops will be too busy stamping out internal dissent to aid any ally, even if they actually wanted to. KarmaPolice (talk) 00:40, 26 March 2025 (UTC)
- While I agree that the impulsivity, chaos and narrow minded outlook makes the Trump administration somewhat unpredictable, it also means that any counterpart getting an inside view is likely to be able to attempt to influence it on any question that is not decided on short notice or is one of Trump’s fixed ideas.
- In this new Gilded Age, anything and everything not directly tied to the previous can go fuck themselves. I mean, let's think of that Signal chat again; I could easily see the likes of bearded couch-fucker arguing that the Taiwanese were 'losers', that they were 'stealing American profits', being 'whiny' on wanting the US to defend them against China and it not being in the [very, very narrow definition of] 'American interests' to stop any invasion. Hell, I could even see him pushing the narrative that the Taiwanese people 'aren't real' and y'know, if the Orange Negus went to Beijing he could hang out with Pooh-Bear, drawing lines on a map of 'spheres of empire' a la Yalta to Make Everything Great. Let's not forget the very possible risk that by mid-'25 the USA is in quite severe political ferment due to the Negus's plans to become the Orange King; that in this situation Beijing et al might make moves because they believe there's a good chance American troops will be too busy stamping out internal dissent to aid any ally, even if they actually wanted to. KarmaPolice (talk) 00:40, 26 March 2025 (UTC)
- This would be extremely valuable, as it would indicate which kind of symbolic victories (and/or personal benefits) that might induce Trump and his administration to make certain “deals”, as well as to take, or refrain from taking, certain actions.
- Also, due to the current chaos, there are almost certainly a lot of Washington agencies running on autopilot, as best as they can, in all of the areas that don’t catch the short attention spans of the Trump appointed heads (or Musk or Trump himself). These agencies are prime targets for penetration and potentially reading their analyses could also reveal, or at least indicate, their sources and blind spots. ScepticWombat (talk) 10:44, 26 March 2025 (UTC)
Funding[edit]
When the total approaches $10k extend the banner line - either further funds for the move or 'funds above [this line] will go towards general RW upkeep (as it suits). Anna Livia (talk) 00:25, 27 March 2025 (UTC)
Annotated Quran[edit]
Wanted to give a big shout out to @Entomoxie who has done a lot of great work on the annotated quran. At this point, we've done 80% of the content of the quran, and have about 10 surahs left to go (all long meaty ones). Project is almost complete!!! ShabiDOO 09:52, 28 March 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks! The book does a good enough job destroying itself, but I still feel like having a bit of fun. Entomoxie (talk) 05:45, 29 March 2025 (UTC)
What is being irrational?[edit]
If one believes that Humans are spiritual beings with a mission in the physical universe, is one suffering from pseudoscience?[edit]
Janosabel (talk) 17:29, 25 March 2025 (UTC)
- The premise is irrational (belief without evidence). Q.E.D. Bongolian (talk) 22:17, 25 March 2025 (UTC)
- I’d argue that being irrational is believing or acting in a way that undermines or prevents oneself from obtaining their interests. The relevance of logical reasoning, the appeal to evidence, and whatever else we may construe as “rational” is due to their relevance to maintaining a consistency in values and methods. If such was inconsistent, read: contradictory, then we couldn’t coherently pursue our own interests without violating our other interests. - Only Sort of Dumb (talk) 23:02, 25 March 2025 (UTC)
- Of course, A implies B if B is always true. Because everyone suffers the consequences of pseudoscience just walking down the street. Everything one believes about ones life can have an unscientific justification. That usually doesn't stop us from believing it. Holding to ones beliefs often has a pseudoscientific motivation. e.g., "if I hold to my principles, the world will be a better place." The statement is really unbelievable, but that doesn't stop us from believing it. Zatoichi (talk) 15:09, 26 March 2025 (UTC)
- This whole question is word salad. The title question is, I suppose, tangentially related to the following text. But the following text makes no sense. What is a "spiritual being"? So what "mission" would they be on? Exactly which "pseudoscience" are we talking about? And how does one suffer from pseudoscience? You typically suffer from illnesses - is the suggestion that some kind of generalised unspecified "pseudoscience" is a mental illness? It's impossible to engage with all this.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 18:48, 26 March 2025 (UTC)
- Of course, A implies B if B is always true. Because everyone suffers the consequences of pseudoscience just walking down the street. Everything one believes about ones life can have an unscientific justification. That usually doesn't stop us from believing it. Holding to ones beliefs often has a pseudoscientific motivation. e.g., "if I hold to my principles, the world will be a better place." The statement is really unbelievable, but that doesn't stop us from believing it. Zatoichi (talk) 15:09, 26 March 2025 (UTC)
Thanks (and I am only inquiring), so do you mean that a lifestyle is rational only as far as it can be validated scientifically? What about Pascal's wager?. Janosabel (talk) 17:47, 28 March 2025 (UTC)
- We have a whole article on Pascal's wager.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 11:44, 29 March 2025 (UTC)
Marjorie Taylor Greene being... herself.[edit]
KarmaPolice (talk) 11:57, 27 March 2025 (UTC)
- An idea I've been mulling over in my mind is why there just seems to be this... unreasoning destructive hatred appearing in people... most visible in members of the far-right, but also starting to appear across the political spectrum and demographics I'd maybe say. In myself within the past few months, particularly after reading some of the extreme stories and upsetting news headlines that have been coming out, I've found myself stricken with just an... unrelenting desire to hate and hurt something... extremism creating extremism maybe? But then where and why does the former start? Discussing this with my one friend and one possible answer we thought is maybe it's just a "distilled" version of everyday frustration to the widespread injustices that most have simply gotten too familiar with to recognize anymore? Perhaps other factors play into it too. In the one video game, Enderal, there's the "Red Madness" that's similarly described as an irrational destructive hatred that appears in people; the game's setting is a theocratic nation teetering on collapse after the literal death of their gods, while a world-wide existential threat looms. Nihilism and global warming? Or another example is "cyberpsychosis" in the dystopian Cyberpunk universe... is the behavior due to an "overload" of cybernetic implants? Or is it the end result of one's humanity being worn away by the world's cruelty? I don't know... it's depressing. Impiricism (talk) 22:37, 27 March 2025 (UTC)
- Or... to apply Occam's Razor; Greene is simply a rather block-headed narcissistic bully. They are angry because their ego is 'under attack' and control is 'being threatened'. They're neither smart/skilled enough to mask their anger /charmingly argue their way out of it / successfully stonewall, therefore the only 'strategy' they have is to insult, belittle and yell - in the hope it makes the opposing party back down. Narcissists crave attention and validation, and Greene keeps on coming out with all this shit because it provides her craving [and why she can't stonewall].
- This is one of the reasons narcissists up to the Orange Negus himself loathe 'the MSN' and their minions [also known as 'journalists']. We saw this in the clip; Kelner was 'yellow rocking' Greene in the best traditions of the press [remaining on-task with the topic while denying any emotional feedback to Greene] which was fucking Greene right off because her usual strategies wasn't working. It's why she walked off in a huff; the personal/emotional 'grey rock' of Kelner meant there was no hand-holds for her to exploit and even worse, at least one American journalist backed them up! You can see while Greene stalks off; she is oh-so-tempted to give another, more extreme lashing-out but possesses enough self-awareness that it was unlikely to go well. KarmaPolice (talk) 13:40, 28 March 2025 (UTC)
- I guess with hateful crazy people like Greene, I have some curiosity to know what events led them to be as such, and then what, if possible, it would take to get them to change. Lack of education and critical thinking / reflection is for certain, but what other reasons too? I assume there has to be other reasons because being a fool doesn't automatically entail being full of animosity. I want to believe that people are generally good, and that it is worth determining why some become so bitter and how to get them to improve because well... it seems like the right thing to do... right? Ah.. to be fair, I'll concede that in most cases it is a neigh on impossible task not even worth any effort... but still...
- I wish people were better and kinder. The world too :/ Impiricism (talk) 21:51, 28 March 2025 (UTC)
- My mother, before she passed, was in some ways a hateful person. Not as bad as some, but hateful nonetheless. I recall that when growing up, she always seemed very convinced that the neighbors in our small farming community didn't like her, that they would regularly gossip about her and us kids. It led to strain in some situations and relationships that shouldn't have ever been present. It was only when my siblings and I were on our own that we really got to evaluate why she was like that... main reasons (without going into the lengthy details) were reflected self-loathing from past mistakes, insecurity, and most critically just a lack of a trusted confidante in which to obtain support and reassurance. Impiricism (talk) 22:22, 28 March 2025 (UTC)
- If we accept my narcissistic theory as viable, my money is on 'environmental'. From what little background I've had on Greene suggests she was 'fairly forgettable' until she hit her 40s [this suggests the narcissism was at least 'in check' until then because full-blown narcissists are never forgettable]. Got hugely into fitness [CrossFit] and whispers of gym-room trysts; my hunch is 'mid life crisis'. This was in c2013/4, which was incidently the time where that nexus of 'social media plus smartphone' came onto the scene - Greene was hugely into SM, almost all about fitness. Problem; there's a significant overlap between the 'fitness community' and 'right wing politics', both in the flesh and online - Greene quite likely found herself washed into the whole QAnon/MAGA nexus by a combination of algorithms and gym bros. Narcissists are very vulnerable to being love-bombed, so it wouldn't have been hard for her to be reeled in. They taught her 'how to do shit' to get outrage attention, and that has become her heroin.
- This is one of the reasons narcissists up to the Orange Negus himself loathe 'the MSN' and their minions [also known as 'journalists']. We saw this in the clip; Kelner was 'yellow rocking' Greene in the best traditions of the press [remaining on-task with the topic while denying any emotional feedback to Greene] which was fucking Greene right off because her usual strategies wasn't working. It's why she walked off in a huff; the personal/emotional 'grey rock' of Kelner meant there was no hand-holds for her to exploit and even worse, at least one American journalist backed them up! You can see while Greene stalks off; she is oh-so-tempted to give another, more extreme lashing-out but possesses enough self-awareness that it was unlikely to go well. KarmaPolice (talk) 13:40, 28 March 2025 (UTC)
- On the 'what could get them to change' bit... I am not sure you really can change Karens. They're forged in the flames of a youth in homogenous suburbs, fully-comp healthplans, upscale malls, Daddy's credit card(s), obsequious servants and utter confidence that any problem can be removed by either moaning, lawsuits or pulling strings [okay, not all Karens are rich, but I've never met one who grew up poor]. It's why they're almost without fail hugely hostile to things like 'Marxism' and 'DEI' because [in a tiny-shell] these are things which teach us that the Game Of Life is not equal and the latter attempts to rectify that ['DEI' in this case being their code for 'non-white']. And nobody wants to reach adulthood and be informed they were playing on 'Easy Mode' throughout and even worse, we propose to rectify that [a bit]. As the economic situation declines in the Anglosphere, chances are Karens are coming out in greater force because their experience of Real Life™ [as in, 'the sort of life proles like me experience'] becomes more frequent. Needless to say, this makes them fodder for fascist movements as a major part of the appeal is a restoration of The Good Old Days™ where Karen was queen. KarmaPolice (talk) 00:10, 29 March 2025 (UTC)
- It seems that quite a lot of the MTG type MAGA heads originate from what some have called “the American gentry”, which fits the profile KarmaPolice has just outlined quite well. These are neither the super rich, nor have they typically attended the most prestigious Ivy League universities, or created nationally successful businesses, but they are still influential and wealthy “big men” in their local area, just like the traditional landed gentry. ScepticWombat (talk) 02:26, 29 March 2025 (UTC)
- 'The American Gentry'
- On the 'what could get them to change' bit... I am not sure you really can change Karens. They're forged in the flames of a youth in homogenous suburbs, fully-comp healthplans, upscale malls, Daddy's credit card(s), obsequious servants and utter confidence that any problem can be removed by either moaning, lawsuits or pulling strings [okay, not all Karens are rich, but I've never met one who grew up poor]. It's why they're almost without fail hugely hostile to things like 'Marxism' and 'DEI' because [in a tiny-shell] these are things which teach us that the Game Of Life is not equal and the latter attempts to rectify that ['DEI' in this case being their code for 'non-white']. And nobody wants to reach adulthood and be informed they were playing on 'Easy Mode' throughout and even worse, we propose to rectify that [a bit]. As the economic situation declines in the Anglosphere, chances are Karens are coming out in greater force because their experience of Real Life™ [as in, 'the sort of life proles like me experience'] becomes more frequent. Needless to say, this makes them fodder for fascist movements as a major part of the appeal is a restoration of The Good Old Days™ where Karen was queen. KarmaPolice (talk) 00:10, 29 March 2025 (UTC)
- When you draw the lines a bit further, you come to realise that a lot of 'MAGA-heads' in general hail from this class; that Greene's [not literal] brother is the 'fuck you, got mine' vulgar libertarian while 'Daddy' is the 'Boss Hogg' type who hates 'the elites' with the same fervour the English 18th Century 'backwoods squires' despised the mercantile-nobility operating out of the major cities. And their reasons for the despising are about the same; advances in capitalism is causing 'the squires' to be squeezed out by 'the plutocrats' while the latter's controlling of the state apparatus is resulting in policies which are at least non-favourable [Wyman notes a lot of Hoggs are heavy into retail franchises, agriculture and construction where the scream for 'cheap, exploitable labour' is constant and therefore is a foe to any rise in minimum wages, labour protections etc]. More often than not, this is the sort of person right-wing politicians are really thinking of when they talk of 'small businesses' - the gentry 'families' which have combined assets of a million or ten. 'GentryThink' infects other areas too; for example education. Their business models don't need that well-educated a workforce and have even less use for scientists, engineers or creatives so they're relatively happy to gut public education to just 'practical stuff' and attempt carve-outs to reduce the mandatory leaving age [safe in the knowledge their spawn will neither attend the modern blab schools or be driven into work at 14].
- But back on the question of 'how to make folks like Greene change'. And the answer is a difficult one, because they generally have an inability to listen, their ego is sufficiently strong to take quite a kicking and many of us have to deal with Karen in ways they very well could make your life hell. The best strategy [I think] is 'yellow rocking'; to deny the Karen's need for validation/attention by curtly remaining on-topic and calm and if there is little/no risk of retribution, to politely but in no uncertain terms to call out their shit. KarmaPolice (talk) 11:44, 29 March 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think it's possible to "change" people like Marge; not through reason anyway. Once you surrender yourself to all-encompassing conspiracy theories like QAnon for long enough, they become your worldview. They change the axioms you live by. If those axioms are out of line with reality, then there's no point in arguing with them because everything which is true will be rejected a priori. Better to stop people from falling down the rabbit hole in the first place. Gabaghoul 🥩 20:24, 29 March 2025 (UTC)
- One thinks of Edmund Burke's phrase: the great unwashed will take only so much pain before they revolt. What pains? These persons harbor ill will towards many ideas concomitant with theories of social progress. Why? A mind unwilling to accept ideas that violate its common sense understanding can either ignore or contend with them. What awoke them from their dogmatic slumber? Doesn't matter now, because they are awake. They were always likely to awaken. There are many movements that might serve as casus belli in civil society.
- There are those that highlight and evoke that sense of discontent with newer social norms and events, such as legal immigration, gendered restrooms, drag parades, and the perennial favorite, "other people getting favors from the government that are unavailable to myself". The idea of losing ones place in a hierarchy along with a sense of isolation and inconsequentiality can result in an acting out of ones frustrations in public situations. Why would one expect everyone to be capable of acting in a way that is consistent with enlightenment ideals? No. It is enough that some people get up in the morning, send their children to school, go to work, come home and go back to sleep and do so without seriously taking up questions of the day. Zatoichi (talk) 22:48, 29 March 2025 (UTC)