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The Bar
(talk) (talk) (talk) (talk) (*cough*) (hic)

Pointless poll

Do you want to join the Church of Unitology?

Yes, I am willing to give up all my money2Vote
Yes, bring on Convergence and the Necromorphs4Vote
No, I do not want to become a cult member1Vote
No, I do not want to become a Necromorph5Vote
I don't play Dead Space29Vote

What is the dumbest argument against same-sex marriage?

It's disgusting!4Vote
It's unnatural!4Vote
Won't someone please think of the children!4Vote
It's part of a liberal plot to destroy marriage!7Vote
It will result in incest/bestiality/pedophilia being allowed!76Vote
God will punish us if gay marriage is allowed!2Vote
But muh religious freedom!7Vote
Call it "civil unions" or "registered partnerships", but don't call it marriage!1Vote
It resulted in the fall of Rome!8Vote
Gay marriage shouldn't be allowed, because all marriage shouldn't be allowed!2Vote
It's a western invention being forced on India/China/Russia/etc.!7Vote
If gay marriage is allowed, everyone will become gay!8Vote
It's part of the gay agenda!5Vote

Should we move the Earth further away from the sun to stop global warming?

I am happy to freeze to death14Vote
Are you batshit crazy RZ9415Vote
As long as I can build an ice sculpture of Super Mecha Death Goat19Vote
RZ94, you trying to kill us all6Vote
Let global warming continue and turn Earth into the next Venus10Vote
Oh boy! Zombie apocalypse!3Vote

Which gender is better at comedy?

Women are funnier4Vote
Men are funnier8Vote
Intersex/Nonbinary are funnier4Vote
Trans of either gender are funnier3Vote
All genders are equally funny5Vote
Don't know, but all of them are funnier than this poll126Vote
Goats are far funnier than boorish humans35Vote
To do list

Nobel Prizes are being awarded.[edit]

Wonder who's gonna win this year? BeardOfZeus (talk) 22:53, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Oh dang some climate scientist winners. My favorite part of the whole article is Parisi standing sassily while on the phone. Probliknaut (talk) 01:39, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
I was surprised when I saw climate scientist were winning this year. That's cool BeardOfZeus (talk) 04:58, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
I have absolutely no idea why that would surprise you. Shouldn't the best and most important science be rewarded?Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 14:33, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
I'd say the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics this year was the single most important in a decade, at least. I'm really glad they won. Austrians and Pos-Keynesians are pissed, which is always a good sign. Angrish and Imbens made a real revolution in experimental economics. Of course, I don't think the more abstract approach of the social sciences will ever disappear, but it's more accurate then ever thanks to these two guys. If anyone wanna know more, check a book called Mastering Metrics: the path from cause to effect. I don't know why it isn't on my guide. Probably because I didn't have time to add it yet. Same reason why I haven't write about the other guy that won the Nobel today, David Card on the minimum wage article . GeeJayK (talk) 02:17, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Need help with uploading an image[edit]

This discussion was moved to RationalWiki:Technical support.

How do you identify "beggin the Question"[edit]

I am really confused as to what exactly Begging the Question/Circular reasoning is in the wild. It is very difficult for me to differentiate between arguing for a certain point and assuming that certain point is true, or have I got it all wrong? Any help, Thanks. An Advocate (talk) 02:36, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Have you looked at our Circular reasoning page? It gives several examples, albeit all within the fundie Christian realm. Bongolian (talk) 02:55, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
Yes, I already checked, but that is a problem when you are debating, well, anyone who is not a creationist. I am having difficulty distinguishing begging the Question from real argument, and I am asking because I am not sure when to call something out as it. An Advocate (talk) 03:49, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
From Buddhism, you should seek to emancipate yourself from the circle of rebirth and death because rebirth is a form of suffering. See what the argument does there? It presupposes existence is inherently suffering, and if you've ever had a good time in your life you'll know that existence is not inherently suffering; that breaks the entire argument down. Even taking it to another level, if you want something and can't get it you suffer; what if it turns out that the thing you wanted in the first place would've made you suffer more? This can easily happen, such as wanting a Red Ryder, carbine action, 200-shot, range model air rifle, with a compass in the stock and this thing that tells time; turns out that if you get it you'll shoot your eye out (har!), so you'll suffer less if you just don't get it in the first place. (As an aside, given the apeshit crazy nature of Buddhism in Southeast Asia and especially Burma, I'll never understand why Buddhism largely gets a free pass from people claiming to be antireligious; at least when I display Buddhist iconography I make it explicitly clear I only appreciate the form, not the message, but hey). The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 04:01, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
Sorry if I am misunderstanding, but that seems more like an argument by assertion that exsistance is suffering. An Advocate (talk) 04:30, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
I have to admit that I often find this one tough as well. While looking round the net I found this which I thought was useful.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 07:17, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
It's not just assuming that a proposition is true (argument by assertion), it's constructing an argument in support of a proposition which itself relies on the proposition being true. If your discussion hasn't gotten to the point of "this is true BECAUSE X," then there isn't even the potential for begging the question. It's usually not as blatant as "X because Y because X," but if in "X because Y because Z," Z depends on the same state of affairs as X, it involves the same underlying circularity. So identification relies on examining arguments and checking for recurrence at different levels. (talk) 09:09, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
”Begging the question” occurs when a conclusion (i.e. something you need to prove or support with evidence) occurs as part of the premises that are used to derive said conclusion. For example, take this argument against abortion
P1: An unborn baby is as valuable as a newborn
C1: Therefore, killing an unborn baby is equivalent to killing a newborn
This argument begs the following: it presupposes that from ‘two babies having the same value’ one can infer something about the relation between ‘killing an unborn baby’ and ‘killing a real baby’. LeucippusSapere aude 11:08, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
It’s important to note that not all forms of circularity are bad, that is, only vicious circularity is bad. After Russell’s Paradox some mathematicians (Russell, Poincaré, Weyl) responded with excessive strictures on circularity, culminating in the “Vicious Circle Principle”. However, Ramsey and Carnap showed that there are forms of circularity that are relatively harmless; for instance take the sentence: ‘John is the tallest man in the room’ which seems to define ‘John’ by reference to a totality (of men in the room)—but the totality that defines John also requires that John be a member of the set of men in the room—which is circular. Carnap and Ramsey, however, suggest that sentences of this sort aren’t problematic as they don’t presuppose that John actually exists, rather, sentences of this sort simply enable us to pick out an entity from a collection. LeucippusSapere aude 11:39, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
Often begging the question are formed in a way which makes it difficult to frame them in the classical P1, P2, C, frequently with a missing premises...where the conclusion and the premises often rely on one another as evidential support, are variations of one another or a foregone conclusion. For example:
  • This restaurant makes the best chilly dog because all other restaurants don't make chilly dogs as well as this one
  • Allah must exist because Allah dictated the Quran and the Quran says that Allah exists
  • This road isn't very safe because this road is dangerous.
They are generally very easy to identify but sometimes they can slip through. Even the best of us do it (sometimes leaving out an essential premesis which would avoid the fallacy) and sometimes we overlook begging the questions (especially when you are biased to accept an argument): Fox news is bad because its news is of low quality. That may be true but this argument begs the question and should be reworked (preferably with strong arguments and evidence). ShabiDOO 12:55, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
@Shabidoo It would seem that the fallacy originated with Aristotle’s method of dialectical reasoning (he called it the fallacy “asking for the conclusion”): Aristotle would start with a thesis already in mind, then Aristotle would give some of his students some premises that support this thesis, and finally, he would give another group of his students the task of arguing against these premises.
However, the students tasked with arguing against those premises weren’t allowed to simply ask for the conclusion Aristotle had in mind, they had to get there by drawing inferences from the premises and seeing whether a contradiction occurred. LeucippusSapere aude 16:52, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
Some of the examples given above aren't begging the question. "This road isn't very safe because this road is dangerous," is a tautology, not a fallacy. It's a restatement of the proposition, not a failed attempt to support the proposition. (talk) 11:27, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Making fun of science deniers is so much damn fun (Thank you Lowbrow Productions)[edit]


Jabs at science denialists and Trump. Too funny. --Channel 48 EAS (talk) 17:24, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

I too like to bully those who are weaker, physically, mentally, or socially than I am. (talk) 01:23, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
Doesn't leave you with a lot of options then, does it? Cardinal Chang (talk) 21:30, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Does anyone know what's going on with Trump v. Twitter?[edit]

On July 7, Trump filed class-action suits against Twitter, Youtube, and Facebook over being banned from those platforms. The Youtube and Facebook cases have proceeded with just the usual preliminary sparring, but the Twitter case has the green ink brigade out in force. So far, there's been an amicus brief filed by "De Factor Attorneys General, Special Forces of Liberty, and Warriors for Christ", an attempt to establish a sub-class by someone who failed to consult with his co-plaintiff (or even establish that his co-plaintiff had been harmed by Twitter), a sovereign citizen filing a "Notice of Joinder and Mandatory Judicial Notice", and someone filing thirty pages of COVID-related nonsense. Has this lawsuit been circulating on fringe sites or something?

If you want to watch the excitement, Court Listener has the filings available. The sovereign citizen's filing in particular is a work of art. -- (talk) 20:57, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

I haven't followed too closely because honestly from what I can tell it's a pretty pathetic beg-a-thon with no legal standing. Trump and his biggest fans clearly have troll-like needs for conflict and stirring up bullshit, else wise one would think they wouldn't bother with this. Trump's attempts at setting up echo chambers to promote himself have failed precisely for that reason. The docket link was nice to see because clearly some people have way more time on their hands and don't have a great idea on how to spend it. (QAnon, or using the Internet to look up delicious recipes, handy fix-it techniques, and maybe learn a few artistic techniques so you can retire like Dubya and do some "outsider" style painting? Well, some people choose poorly.) PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 22:39, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
Even if he wanted to, his fans wouldn't let him. Trump is probably going to botch Republican's successes in 2022, if he runs in 2024 he will instantly lose. But the GOP can't back away. Andrew5 (talk) 01:09, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
The second link that was provided was to to a filing made by one "Kenneth-Wayne Leaming", who was sentenced to 8 years in prison about 8 years and 5 months ago for militia and sovereign citizen-related charges ("three counts of filing false liens against federal officials, and one count of harboring federal fugitives and being a felon in possession of firearms")[1]. Wayne?[2] Bongolian (talk) 19:48, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
Note: the above-mentioned filing actually bears the marks of freeman on the land pseudolaw (peculiar naming, e.g., "Jack-Parick: Dorsey"), not sovereign citizen pseudolaw (immunity from the law). Bongolian (talk) 17:41, 12 October 2021 (UTC) However, the original sentencing document on Leaming identifies him as sovereign citizen.[3] Bongolian (talk) 17:53, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
Can't tell if the Motion to Appear and Motion to Block Donald J. Trump from Twitter Forever is from a wingnut or a troll, but it's certainly a comedy piece. -- (talk) 20:39, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

The conservative's anti-science stance is ultimately killing them now, how that affects the future votes[edit]

For a while now conservatives have been getting increasingly anti-intellectual (I say increasingly, because at some point even Margaret Thatcher was a leader in promoting climate change awareness (that is until it became more politicized and she threw climate science under the bus because it was being used to criticize the excesses of capitalism), I've long held the view that when you reject science, it can end up having conseqeunces. In an outbreak, those consequences are fatal.

But what does this all mean for their voterbase? Surely there is a particularly faulty reasoning going on from a political standpoint when your main source of votes is the most vulnerable to COVID, and yet you are filling their heads with nonsense and discouraging them from getting a vaccine to save their life. It's as if the republican strategy is to win by burning their own fields.

Being an anti-vaxxer is essentially a strong predictor that you're voting conservative. More on that.

The problem is that, when you have a party that is corrupt to its core, where a large portion of them are getting their pockets lined to repeat an anti-science narrative. That the influencers of this party are telling them to distrust science, and why wouldn't they? If they listened to the facts, they'd be out of the job on several fronts like climate change, COVID, effects of growing wealth inequality, it seems like eventually the republicans should be burning through their voterbase little by little.

It doesn't help that there is a divide in how republicans view education, let alone actual achievement academically. This was a long time coming though, sabotaging education is a conservative tradition at this point. And is becoming an identity issue, they probably realized the experts weren't reporting the facts they'd like or were even critical of them and decided that maybe education wasn't so good anymore.

I actually feel sympathy for the poor republican voters who haven't gotten an education, the ones who dropped out, or couldn't make it and are lost (the people the system has failed) in a confusing world to which the people around them explain it to them by filling their head with bullshit, and elsewhere in the world, similar conservative cranks explicitly saying things like we don't need the experts. What is the uneducated supposed to do unless someone comes to save them? Accidentally come across disconfirming evidence? And then there is the problem of when they go on like that for years, and just reject things because accepting they are wrong would be too costly (now the people you talk to know you're a fool and the smug liberal was right!) (talk) 06:27, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Merck is coming out with an oral antiviral that will make it easier for the antivaxers to get through the pandemic. Cygon (talk) 15:16, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
Thing is, it's not just conservatives in elected positions who are "anti-science," but also every day citizens who vote. Heck, it's not even just conservatives who are "anti-science" as I have known people who are very liberal supporting conspiracy theories and anti-corporate bullshit (i.e. "you can't trust vaccines because they are made by greedy capitalists!!!!" or "education is controlled by rich capitalists!!!!!"). If Biden and Trump didn't both make COVID political, vaccination rates would be higher right now. And for that matter, I have no doubt that vaccination rates would be higher if Trump won re-election because only the hard-core anti-Trumpers and hard core anti-vaxxers would refuse the jab. Currently those folks are refusing it along with the MAGA people. Another thing I'd like to add is there are a lot of "educated" health care workers and their unions refusing/protesting vaccine mandates in the USA, such as paramedics and EMTs in the City of Chicago and SEIU members at Columbia Presbyterian Hospital in New York (despite the union's national position of being in favor of mandates). There are also teachers in New York opposing vaccine mandates. So if union members in deep blue states are opposed to the vaccine or vaccine mandates, and everyone opposed to the vaccine or vaccine mandates are going to vote conservative, the upcoming election is probably going to be very kind to the Republican party. (talk) 01:21, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
You may want to search for the time when Trump was actually booed for suggesting that, gosh, wasn't the vaccine his administration helped create a good thing? Tis funny. "Conservative" really isn't the best word to describe the bulk of the anti-vaxx crowd, "gullible enough to believe a conspiracy theory" is. And while the conspiracy theory crowd these days has shifted heavily towards the right populists, there remains a solid bloc of the conspiracy theory crowd on the left that also are anti-vaxx (no one would call the Nation of Islam "conservative" for instance, and the New Age crowd has not completely disappeared). Anecdotally of the conservatives I know, I would describe the situation as "split". Those more grounded in reality are pro-vaccine. Those who babble Facebook conspiracy theories and fall for every quack cure pushed no matter how ridiculous it is are anti-vaxx. The anti-vaxx conspiracy idiots are loud but the majority of Republicans actually are vaccinated at this time. There's a significant share of idiots, but not all of them are. So I don't think one can make any electoral assumptions based on nutpicking at this time. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 03:16, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

COVID anxiety (Yup, this is a god damned rant)[edit]

Getting close to two years of this madness and it is driving me insane. I think that the science denialists and right wing terrorists (My philosophy is to call it like it is) have been the worst fucking part of this mess. I just want this pandemic to end already. Just getting those thoughts out there. --Channel 48 EAS (talk) 16:52, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Good post! BeardOfZeus (talk) 04:25, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
Everyone suffering because nature is being an asshole I am prepared for. Humanity having to team up to fight a disease is sad, but understandable. The tragedy is this could be over right now if the population hadn't been so brain washed by right-wing scumbags that they refuse life saving technology. MirrorIrorriM (talk) 14:35, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
Might want to remember this behavious when you're writing your next story. I still chuckle at the end timers who used to boast about how prepared they were for the collapse of society only to see them panic at the first lock down, and have a hissy fit over wearing a face mask. Cardinal Chang (talk) 14:43, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
Back in high school I always thought it was nearly impossible to despise right-wingers any more but antivaxxers, one of the worst specimen of idiotic, I didn't even know existed until college, proved me wrong. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 14:49, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
From what I remember, the antivaxx crowd existed, but were a rather small sect, and more mixed politically. Generally the type of crazy people you'd find later ranting about how water fluoridation is a Communist plot and the like. It's amazing to see this become "mainstream", and shows the power of propaganda outlets like Facebook and Fox News. Yes, the pandemic has also demonstrated how a certain part of the prepper crowd is wasting their money. You can probably get better "survival gear" type items at, say, REIWikipedia, but no, some have to buy into the Infowars/Jim Bakker type bullshit... PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 15:07, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
The pandemic is taking a toll on the U.S. governments ability to get things done. Politico just released this news: ‘The president’s decline is alarming’: Biden trapped in coronavirus malaise. Cygon (talk) 15:09, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
Nah, that's just good ol' fashion partisanship in its typical inaction, both between the cult of Angry Baby and Democrats and also within the Democrats between "the centrists", "the progressives", and "who the fuck bought off Kyrsten Sinema?". A fair bit of writers are still expecting the Biden bill o' sausages to eventually be made. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 15:20, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
I'm sure antivaxxers existed before my knowledge. I was rather naive at the time. They were jaw-dropping to me at the time. I was also especially shocked learning about the belief in chemtrails when I always understood contrails as interesting plane clouds. What other crazy belief went under my plumber schnoz? That dew in the morning is government secretly spraying stuff to mind control you? It's as plausible as "chemtrails". --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 03:23, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

The biggest problem for Biden right now is the independents who are a key voting block. Cygon (talk) 15:37, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Blizzard alert![edit]

100mph winds, up to 30 inches of snow projected across the Rocky Interior]. Could also bring strong tornadoes, similar to the October 2013 North American storm complexWikipedia, one of my notable storms. Andrew5 (talk) 19:15, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

When it happened[edit]

In the beginning, it is easy to overlook the role of the individual to improve his or her status as a good citizen or of humanity by helping others and in doing so you bring about the common good. It must be pointed out that this kind of person is not for everyone, but may contribute to a person by serving others. In the end, it is important to have people work within the community to improve their own lives by assisting others and in doing so you are helping to build hope. BogWhale (talk) 04:43, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Dr. Markov, is that you? Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 04:52, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Racism and Ableism in one go: This is why corrupt cops should be held accountable[edit]


A wheelchair bound African-American was pulled over in a traffic stop. He had a car meant for wheelchair bound people; due to this he needed special assistance to get out. So these corrupt monsters pulled him out of the car by his hair and beat the living shit out of him. Keep in mind that the only thing in his car was money and no drugs (more details in the article).

Playing the Devil's Advocate here- lets pretend for a moment that he did do something wrong like denialists claim. It is up to a court to decide, not the cops. How difficult is it to comprehend? Hold these crooks accountable for their crimes. --Channel 48 EAS (talk) 16:09, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

What is so vile and filthy and immoral and inhuman and sickening is that some police forces, most especially many American ones, completely approve of these cops cruelty and pointless wrecklessness. The Dayton police said it was the right thing to do. Dragging him along the road till his pants fell off. Jamming his face into the pavement. Chucking his shoes into his car. Kneeling on the back of a non-violent disabled person. Unwilling to even pretend to call a supervisor to build trust with a vulnerable citizen. All Infront of his son. They cannot do wrong, will not learn from mistakes and continue to increase the number of people who despise them. They will defend the most outrageous shit short of shooting an unarmed person in the back...and even them sometimes they justify that shit. I would bet an eternity in hell they would not have dragged an old white disabled lady out of the car if she asked them to call a supervisor. I hope he gets millions. And if there was any justice it would come out of the paychecks of these terrible cops and all those who congratulated them for a job well done. ShabiDOO 17:11, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
When a police officer tells you to get out of the car, you are legally required to get out. Whether the officer had "probable cause" is something that gets decided by the courts, not you. Your attorney can argue the "fruit of the rotten tree" doctrine that would exonerate you from any criminal charges if the officer didn't have probable cause. He wasn't just "incapable" of getting out, he refused to let the officer assist him out. Then when they tried to grab his arm, he still tried to stay in the car. It's disturbing, yes, but the officers weren't technically in the wrong.
EDIT- I'm currently trying to find what officers are supposed to do with disabled suspects, because it's pretty obvious his car was modified for disabled people so it wasn't like he was making it all up. I'd hope there's a better way than dragging someone by the hair and throwing them to the ground... Coral (argue) 19:30, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
You'd hope? Yes there is a better way. Almost any other way is a better way. Unfortunately this is just another sad example of American cops on a violent power trip. "Gun, badge, pretend they're on TV." Republicans are doing almost nothing to address this (unsurprisingly). Democrats are way too disorganized and chaotic (even by their own normally low standards) on this issue to even come close to a solution. Some of them are taking the phrase "Defund the Police" a little too literally, not realizing that they're advocating for anarchism. There is one party that has an organized, rational, and easily achievable solution. I'll just keep quixotically hoping they get the chance.
Oh, and in case anyone missed this atrocity: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/police-pepper-spray-9-year-old-girl-rochester-n-y-n1256313— Unsigned, by: / talk
Any time a story of this manner is shared I always read the article and find out, "gee this isn't quite the incident acab types make it out to be." --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 20:47, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
As for pepper spraying a girl, this is a consequence of our system defunding mental health services and then leaving this gap behind for cops to fill in. Cops are trained to deal with neurotypical adults, but people with mental health struggles, especially children, operate in a whole nother realm of logic, which police are horribly underequipped to deal with since that's not their job. Social workers should've been called instead but I also cannot say the police committed exactly an atrocity though they did use way too much force here. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 21:06, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
The fact that numerous Americans consider violently jamming a disabled person's face in the pavement, kneeling on a disabled person's back, pulling them out by the hair and so on, as opposed to investing what may turn out to be a small amount of patience and extra time to avoid this (which is what is expected of police forces in many countries in the civilised developed world)...all as a reasonable response, or at the very least "technically allowed" is insane. It is absolutely deranged. The guy could have been terribly belligerent, verbally abusive and unreasonable...and what these pigs did still would have been reprehensible. I cannot square the endless American narrative of freedom from a controlling government and justifying people arming themselves to the hilt to remain free from undue mistreatment, while applauding police to do shit like this to non-violent citizens. It is grotesque. ShabiDOO 22:21, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
Based on events ranging from Waco to the 2021 U.S. Capitol riot, IMHO the type of people you are describing typically are indeed absolutely gun-ho about the American "warrior cop" ethos that leads to bullshit like this... until they end up on the "wrong" side of law enforcement. Then they quickly become the ACABers they like to complain about. I don't care if it's technically correct either, both videos seems to at best indicate some poor decision making on the officers' part. Both situations, particularly the paraplegic, could probably have been de-escalated. This is not "ACAB" moment, because anyone who has visited another developed nation knows that American police are "exceptional", in that they are way too often an asshole when there is no need to be one. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 23:15, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
Shabi, it doesn't piss me off all that much for the simple reason that this arrest isn't excessively violent in comparison to most arrests where the suspect is resisting. I suppose that says a lot about the US, but the US really does have a crime problem that isn't comparable to Europe. Blame the poor social safety net. I really can't think of a reasonable situation where a random guy has $22,000 in cash right after leaving a known drug den that doesn't involve something illegal, but innocent until proven guilty and all. Coral (argue) 03:35, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
I'm not sure if social security are the main explanation for the higher crime rates in US. I'd usually run a regression, but I'm too tired for that, so let's just make a quick analysis. The top three OECD countries by public social expenditure are France, Finland and Belgium. Nonetheless, Finland and Belgium also have the highest homicide rates in Western Europe (disregarding Lichenstein). Meanwhile, countries with a lower social security spending, like South Korea, Switzerland, Ireland and even ChileWikipedia have lower homicide rates than US. I agree, this is a very problematic model (we're only analyzing two variables, and in a very poor way, and spending a lot=/=spend effectively, as the Medicare and the Medicaid show us). But while I agree that poor social security leads to higher criminality rates I think there are other variables that are as important as social security. GeeJayK (talk) 04:25, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
There's also the lack of social mobility. The US is sadly becoming less and less mobile than years ago, and if your options are to work 60+ hrs a week at a job paying $10/hr in the hopes that you'll get a promotion to $11/hr, versus make that much money dealing drugs in one afternoon, drugs becomes a logical answer. Coral (argue) 04:50, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Nice guess, but I don't think this is the answer either. Social mobility in US is higher than the average OECD. A better guess IMO is inequality. This World Bank paper is 20 years old, but it's very good. I know there are few other similar, more recent studies, but I haven't read any of them. You can skip the methology section if you want. GeeJayK (talk) 05:20, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Quite sure that communist regimes have worse crime problems too. If anything, inequality is a symptom or perhaps has similar causes as crime, but not in itself the cause. Coral (argue) 05:38, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
I'm not sure I'd use that last sentence (which sounds like a topic sentence) as truth and veracity, but I fully understand what you mean. Previous convictions for what's been used for, well, since at least 3000 BCE seems absolutely bonkers. So fair points. Thanks for indulging me. Kntai (talk) 12:28, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
Humor the "I just created a new account to troll the Salon", it actually might be true ending the War on Some Drugs actually might help reduce a wee bit of the "warrior cop" bullshit in America. Let me know when America becomes less racist, though, seems like many indicators (ranging from the election of Angry Baby to a simple browse of your local racist Nextdoor "community") shows we have a long way to go. Also (throwing my own non-sequitor) let me know when cops actually embrace gun control, because America's gun permissiveness is part of the problem and my general experience tends to be that, polarization being the way they are, many cops tend to be more on the pro-NRA side of things (occupational hazards be damned). PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 13:21, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
From what I understand, petty drug laws are only on the books as a way of side-stepping the normal legal system. Note; I'm not justifying drug laws, rather explain the reason we have them.
Detectives are expensive. A weeklong trial is a week's salary for the Judge, DA, court reporter, public defender, bailiff, police spending time as witnesses, etc, to say nothing of the maintenance of the facility. The average murder trial costs $600k, not including the detective work involved, and if the DA goes for the death penalty, double that amount. For something like burglary, it's less expensive, but we are still talking a six-figure price tag. We could spend that every time a burglar is arrested with no guarantee of a conviction... or... well that burglar had 1 ounce in his apartment, it's much easier and cheaper to prove possession, so we offer a plea deal for a drug charge and then done. That's one of the confounding issues when talking about "oh, most criminals are in there for drugs". No, most criminals have plead down to a drugs charge. Coral (argue) 13:24, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Vent: People actually voted for this man …..[edit]

“You’re a nasty piece of work”—Eddie Mair hits the nail on the head. If you feel optimistic about the future of humanity, just reflect on the fact that supposedly “educated” humans in a “developed nation” have voted for this narcissistic piece of shit. I fear that barring substantial changes to human biology, it is inevitable that humanity will extinguish itself. Narcissists, like Boris Johnson, are irredeemable—we have an abundance of evidence concerning his narcissism, and his inability to change—, …!
LeucippusSapere aude 18:21, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
What's more worrying is, it's blatantly obvious he's not fit for any public office, something that became clear during his nightmarish turn as Mayor of London. And yet people voted for him. Why? Christ only knows. It was during that period of recent history when it seemed he would be a disrupter. A rule-breaker. Someone who wouldn't do the same as previous PM's. You know, that same idiotic, masochistic belief that Trump or Bolsonaro or that fucking headbanger (To quote Olen Steinhauer, back when the rest of Europe hadn't a clue about him) Viktor Orban. And would you believe they've all been pretty much national embarrassments. PR seems to trump (no pun intended) over ability and policies. Even Ireland has a similar case with Leo "My self satisfaction ratings are at an all time high!" Varadkar, Irelands first openly smug Taoiseach (then, now Tánaiste) to quote Oliver Callan. The rather ridiculous thing about Boris' voter base is, they want foreigners out and yet he's a fucking Yank born of Turkish descent. Cardinal Chang (talk) 19:33, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
"That's humanity" to be honest... lots of assholes questing for power, and lots of assholes who admire assholes merely for being assholes propping them up. Even now in the world, there are "leaders" out there committing worse atrocities than Trump, Johnson, Orban, or Bolsonaro have ever done (I'm thinking folks like Xi Jinping, the often awful despots in sub-Saharan Africa and the Middle East, Rodrigo Duterte's "extrajudicial killing" network, etc.) Humanity chugs on in spite of these assholes, and even on occasion some humans behave surprisingly not like an asshole. And often the assholes "dig their own hole", e.g. the asshole behavior comes back to bite them badly... as we've seen with Brexit and during the COVID-19 pandemic. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 20:24, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
All valid points, but I referred to Trump, BoJo, Bolsanaro and Orban because people voted for these bastards. Cardinal Chang (talk) 20:34, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
Yes, although people voted for these guys for other reasons (ranging from racism to concerns about corruption), unfortunately there are a lot of assholes out there, particularly of the boorish variety who think that the character of a man is how much of an asshole they are. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 20:47, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
What's wrong with Boris Johnson? For one he's trying to stop climate change and he also finally got Britain out of the hellhole that is Brexit. As leaders go he doesn't seem so bad. He definitely not in the same camp as Trump or Bolsonaro. BeardOfZeus (talk) 23:04, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
Boris was one of the principal architects of Brexit and helped animate anti-EU insanity simpy to cure his boredom, get attention and drive his political career despite fully well knowing how deeply beneficial remaining in the EU was and how costly leaving the EU was, is and will be. He is the worst kind of politician, not because he lies and does snakey shit to keep his career going (they ALL do), but because behind that, he didn't start out with nor vaguely tries to realise any benevolent or meaningful goal behind any of this, and more so...he will resort to a rather high degree of sneaky bullshit to achieve anything. Yes, he isn't as destructive as Trump. Trump should not be some kind of metric by which you judge others. "At least x isn't Trump" shouldn't be a statement anyone has to make. ShabiDOO 23:59, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
It's true that Johnson was part of the "Vote Leave" campaign during that vote in 2016. However how do you know that Boris Johnson knew "fully well knowing how deeply beneficial remaining in the EU was and how costly leaving the EU was, is and will be."? He has managed to get Britain to finally out of Brexit (as agreed by a democratic vote). He's also have done great strides in getting climate change in front of Britain's agenda (compared to Scotty from Marketing). BeardOfZeus (talk) 00:15, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
I do consider Boris less of a dumbass than Trump / Bolsonaro, but in my opinion your viewpoint on Johnson and his role in Brexit is... pretty charitable. His early Telegraph columns are considered by some sources to "plant the seed" for Brexit-level Euroscepticism in the 1990s. Once he "got political", while not quite Trump as far as asshole behavior goes, he tends to be part of a chaotic cloud (similar to Trump in this way) that seems to be more engaged in internal power shenanigans than any governance. Johnson barely avoided a no-deal Brexit (kind of kicking the can down the road, though) and it's pretty clear that his Brexit-related immigration policies exasperated some of the recent UK shortage issues that have been in the news lately. Yes, to his credit, he's not like the other two on climate change and actually acknowledges it, he didn't spew the bullshit on COVID-19 that the other two did, and he doesn't have that faux masochistic wimpiness bullying thing going on that Trump and Bolsonaro have in spades. So it's not all bad. But it's not all great. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 00:49, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
Good post! BeardOfZeus (talk) 01:03, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
Not sure how stupid a stance on covid this is, but here's Boris in fine moron form https://news.sky.com/video/coronavirus-i-shook-hands-with-everybody-11948548 Cardinal Chang (talk) 04:43, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
Boris wasn't totally to blame for the initial COVID response, because he was actually listening to his advisors. Who were making the decisions based on their view of UK politics instead of letting the PM himself do so, at least if they had let Boris be the one to get people to lockdown by really driving that point home, instead of saying that "the UK is essentially too spoiled to accept these measures", they could just wash their hands of that issue and say. "Well, at least we told them what should have been done. It's their fault if they didn't listen". But on Brexit? Well, he wasn't being dishonest, right? It was one of the funniest moments of all, it also caused Nigel Farage to outright lie too. "I'd never have made that claim". It's just so satisfying when a gaslighter gets caught redhanded and the veil disappears. (talk) 06:38, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
I don't know what planet you're on, but on the day Boris was shaking hands with everybody, SAGE advice was to not do so. https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/boris-johnson-boasted-of-shaking-hands-with-coronavirus-patients-on-same-day-officials-urged-ban-new-documents-show Cardinal Chang (talk) 11:20, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
Was that directed at me, because the source I posted also mentions him shaking hands on the 3rd, it's from Reuters. What it also goes into is how the advisors to him behind the scenes also knew full well that it was going to be bad, but their reports downplayed it or excluded their true beliefs about what needed to be done because of what they thought of the British public. But the interviews and documents also reveal that for more than two months, the scientists whose advice guided Downing Street did not clearly signal their worsening fears to the public or the government. Until March 12, the risk level, set by the government’s top medical advisers on the recommendation of the scientists, remained at “moderate,” suggesting only the possibility of a wider outbreak. “You know, there’s a small little cadre of people in the middle, who absolutely did realise what was going on, and likely to happen,” said John Edmunds, a professor of infectious disease modelling and a key adviser to the government, known for his work on tracking Ebola. Edmunds was among those who did call on the government to elevate the warning level earlier. From the outset, said Edmunds, work by scientists had shown that, with only limited interventions, the virus would trigger an “overwhelming epidemic” in which Britain’s health service was not going “to get anywhere near being able to cope with it. That was clear from the beginning.
That quote about unnecessarily panicking people was from Edmunds, one of the scientific advisors, not Boris. This is finger-pointing among the scientists who were advising the PM. (talk) 21:59, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

But he said: “I do think there’s a bit of a worry in terms you don’t want to unnecessarily panic people.” whats important to remember about boris is that hes a product of eton and a public school system as was Cameron. together they bookended brexit. ive said it before, but eton rifles still depressingly relevant. AMassiveGay (talk) 12:01, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

This came to mind; "Why public schoolboys like me and Boris Johnson aren’t fit to run our country" Kntai (talk) 12:11, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
public school twattery explains so much about british politics. look at laurence fox, for examples. absolutely fuck all to say, but insistent on us all listening to the nothing-at-all he has to say. AMassiveGay (talk) 12:54, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
OpenDemocracy on the mopped haired laundry basket made human https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/boris-johnson-made-politics-awful-then-asked-people-vote-it-away/ Cardinal Chang (talk) 14:47, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
This sums my frustration and despair in a more sane fashion: Covid Report: Read it and weep “Johnson still retains dazzlingly high support in the polls …….!” LeucippusSapere aude 16:20, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
I'm not sure that they have got that "dazzlingly high support" right. This is his approval rating according to YouGov - or more accurately his disapproval rating. While the position of the Conservative party is like a mirror image. Which is kind of weird.
I no longer live in the UK so perhaps someone who still lives there could tell me if I have misunderstood - or explain it.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 16:16, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
essentially covid happened. boris has pretty much been the face of covid uk's covid response, and i imagine you'd could match his peaks and troughs to particular phases of the pandemic. hes also the face of brexit and id imagine his popularity is going to dip further when the shit thats causing and will cause can no longer be blamed on covid. the tories as a whole have benefitted because for much of the pandemic it was the only show in town and labour took the decision to to support the governments measures rather than use it asa means of attack and has essentially been invisible for a large part of it. they are also still reeling from the nadir of corbyn, still reeling from activists who cannot see beyond their own arses and would rather carry on pointless in party conflicts than move forward, with labour not sure what it stands for, with voters no idea what it stands for, no clear message for them to get behind. tories however, the party of brexit, theres no uncertainty or ambiguity for there voters. its brexit all they way for them, and thats votes for the tories. its still too early for the negatives of brexit to sway them, and i have my doubts labour have enough time before the next election to make themselves heard with a strong and distinct message to make them a credible alternative to the tories. we are essentially without functioning opposition, and people are fooling themselves if they think fuck ups from boris will mean labour victory. AMassiveGay (talk) 16:51, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Christopher Columbus's Crew[edit]

Was Columbus's crew multi-racial?

In the Renaissance Era, and probably up until the modern day, sailing was a job you did when you didn't have options. In the late 15th century, Spain was in the middle of ethnically cleansing itself of all the Moors (and Jews) from its territory, and had announced another round of genocides to be conducted on August 1st 1492, which was just days before Columbus set sail. Even though it was a successful voyage, literally half of the crew died.

Of course, after the voyage was pretty much one of the biggest if not the biggest events of the millennium, Spain would be all too happy to White-wash the crews history and pretend they were all upright Spanish citizens.

So, what fraction of Columbus's crew, if not the man himself, were not ethnic Europeans? Coral (argue) 18:59, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Per an old Orlando Sentinel article it was mostly Spaniards and almost all Europeans. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 19:17, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
Interesting... they did have a token Black guy... Coral (argue) 19:38, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
Actually the new generation of young Spanish people (and to a lesser yet still notable extent the last two generations) have a pretty high degree of awareness of their brutal colonial past, do not make apologies or justifications for it as even still some British historians do (i.e. we helped make India better) and engage in little historical flowering. They direct this mostly at their own national history within the peninsula, glossing over their civil war and the Franco era, oppression of regional cultures and other modern occurrences that inconvenience their national narratives. I never met a Spaniard that wasn't embarrassed by how savage Spanish colonialism was, and gaining knowledge that these ships had multi-ethnic crews would, for the most part, be seen as a positive. ShabiDOO 00:05, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
During the age of sail, literally half of all the sailors (and pirates) were Black, or Mulatto, or Mestizo, etc. Like I said, sailing was something for people that didn't have options. As for Columbus, the Pinzon brothers made up two of the captains of Columbus's ships (and a first mate). They had dabbled in piracy throughout their career beforehand; not the nicest fellows. It's not a settled debate, but many scholars believe that at least one of the brothers contracted syphilis during the first voyage, and spread it to Europe. Coral (argue) 15:27, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
Does it matter or not if the crew was multi racial? I mean all that matters is that all the crew were humans and not aliens from planet Xenu. BeardOfZeus (talk) 23:57, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
Yes, because erasing the contributions of Black/Brown/Asian/Whatever people, good or bad, effectively says to all modern Black people that they were never major players on the world stage and implies that should remain the case. History needs to be taught, warts and all, but it does need to be honest. There have been Sub-Saharan African artists and scientists, culture and music and civilizations. They've been involved in the Age of Exploration one way or another too. Africa was a source of slaves, but many parts were also a destination for slaves, others had been involved in the slave trade and some had nothing to do with it. Some nations had achieved great things and had committed horrific atrocities. But all peoples have been involved in the world. Coral (argue) 00:11, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
And it's also helpful to note that not just Africans have been slaves. Pretty much every culture had some form of slavery or fairly close equivalent (hell, look at the root word for "slave" in pretty much every non-Slavic Indo-European language, and even Basque for goodness sake), if you read 1001 Arabian Nights you'll notice frequent clarifications for "black slave" and "white slave". Same with the Ainu people who I enjoy reading about (I even learned to play one of their traditional instruments). It's not as if having historically been subjugated means your culture isn't worth talking about. That said, it's important not to overcorrect too; a lot of Lithuanians have a... creative... interpretation of the Polish-Lithuanian union, which was (depending on who you ask) a shameful capitulation or the plot of some evil Polacks to subjugate the fatherland Lithuania (a line that's also conveniently misrepresented along with the poet who wrote it). The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:27, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
In many ways Greco-Latin slavery was less onerous than American slavery, at least in the cities and away from the industrialized agriculture the Romans developed. The most valuable slave in Rome was an educated Greek; the Greek could teach the language, which in many contexts carried much higher prestige than Latin, and was a part of the education of every Roman of rank. Hard to see that working in the American South. Now, sub-Saharan Africa was unfortunately somewhat cut off from the cultures of Europe and Asia. Before the caravel, it was separated by an impassible desert. Later, add hostile Muslims to the area's hazard. When Egypt was lost to Western Europe, there were not all that many ways to get there, and the trade and cross pollination did not happen for a long time. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 04:13, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
For sure, in antiquity a slave in the right circumstances could achieve some degree of status. But the Ottomans were hardly willing to let the Slavs they conquered achieve anything of the sort, nor were the western Europeans who ended up dealing in them to a surprising degree. Given how very much the world owes to West Africa, especially in mathematics, it's too bad the desert prevented them from greater influence; the Diabate family notwithstanding (if you've never heard it the kora is one of the most astoundingly beautiful instruments you'll ever encounter, and now 3 generations of Diabates have simultaneously preserved its tradition and expanded it into vast new styles of music), it's a shame how little recognition the intellectual contributions of the people there receive. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 05:12, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
Ottoman slavery was far more brutal than US slavery. Most male slaves were castrated; there never was any intention of letting them have any children of their own. One of the most utterly BS claims about slavery in the old world (overgeneralizing of course because it varied) was that unlike the New World it wasn't inherited. That's a half-truth, because in the Old World, the father of the slave's baby was almost never a slave himself. In the New World, while sex-slaves and rape by the masters was common, the father was usually another slave.
Slavery also varied throughout the New World. The 13 colonies were not the initial focus of colonization; there were too many natives fighting back, the main trade goods were furs which the natives were already providing without the need for major settlements, etc. It took literally a century after the discovery of the New World before Europeans made serious efforts into colonization there. By then, slavery was already rife in the Caribbean, in spite of the "1619 Project"'s name. While the colonies did import directly from Africa, the majority of slaves were actually imported from places such as Haiti and Jamaica, simply because the colonies were so much further away from the African coast than, say, Brazil. Coral (argue) 13:51, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Classical slavery (Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greece, Rome) was quite varied. Depending on the location, era and how you were enslaved (and even your gender, how attractive you were at the time, your health and stamina etc) you could end up worked to death in a mine or have it relatively easy with the right to own property, get education and buy your freedom. You could have been a sex slave or you could do challenging farm work some months and then spend the winter relatively idle. Some places and epochs, your kids became slaves, sometimes not. Over time rights for slaves developed. Slavery in Muslim kingdoms ranged from something like the previous description to pretty unimaginably brutal/horrific with zero rights. Slavery in the Americas was mostly brual/horrific, was for life, was inherited with absolutely zero rights (with a few exceptions in some Spanish and French colonies towards the end). Some slaves depending on their circumstances had it easier than others. None the less, all slavery is morally repugnant and no form of slavery should be, in theory, more acceptable than any other. In other words, while some forms of slavery are less barbaric and less cruel, it is all unnecessary and a form of outrageous violence, both physical and psychological against another human. ShabiDOO 15:20, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Side note, we really should have an article on the 1619 Project here. I'd help out anyone who wants to start a draft. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 15:46, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Will COVID tests end up becoming an important key to ending this pandemic?[edit]

Last Wednesday, the White House announced a plan to rapidly increase COVID test availability. This might sound a bit bizarre, but honestly, COVID tests might be extremely important right now to ending this pandemic. I've noticed something lately; most people who are against COVID vaccines generally don't have any problem with producing negative COVID tests. The main obstacle with tests at the moment is costs, but that's primarily due to limited quantity, so increasing test availability should reduce costs to at least an affordable level (probably not to the point where they're free, but far less than the $150 average). So, if anti-vaxers are willing to do that, why stop them? Further, requiring a COVID vaccine while not allowing a test as an alternative can easily spread that conspiracy of the vaccine trying to kill everyone all across the internet. In other words, not allowing COVID tests can actually increase vaccine hesitancy, not reduce it. But allowing a negative COVID test can help extinguish that conspiracy. Idk, it makes sense to me; anyone who wants the shot can get one, anyone who doesn't gets tested, BOOM, everyone's happy and the pandemic dies out. Sounds like a huge win if you ask me. Obviously not trying to bash vaccination here, but remember, vaccination isn't really the ultimate goal; the ultimate goal is to end the pandemic, which vaccination and COVID tests are designed to do. There are a few drawbacks to COVID tests over vaccines, like frequency for example, but I also think vaccines have drawbacks over tests, like side effects. But again, I'm not calling either one of them bad, I just don't think it's a bad idea if COVID tests are a choice for most people, in fact, it's possible that it could end the pandemic much faster. Aaronmichael5 21:42, 11 October 2021 (UTC).

The USA has a lot of people who received a poor education who also place a premium on their rights/privacy. The USA will never catch up with countries with a high vaccination rate and excellent contact tracing. Moving to a high vaccination state is the best you can do. Cygon (talk) 22:35, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

The User Illusion[edit]

I came across this in a TV show I was watching but I'm not entirely sure I get the idea. Is it similar to that the brain constructs reality based on input from the senses?Machina (talk) 04:47, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Consciousness can be seen as a completely deterministic thing. The brain takes inputs from the environment and then reacts entirely predictably to produce an output based on its current state (I believe this is true because all that we are is in our brain, simulate the brain and you predict perfectly what someone does). There could be an illusion in the philosophical sense if we can't take for granted that our senses are telling us the truth of the world. I think Hume touched on this, but there's probably a bunch of philosophers (it's not something I major in) that no doubt talk about how reality could be a big illusion. This is a popular one with Rene Descartes' demon, nihilism (nothing can be guaranteed to be true) even from an empirical standard I don't think you ever have absolute, 100% certainty in reality, but most scientists will take the consensus for granted and try not to dwell on the too spooky ideas that it's all just an illusion and they aren't going to wake up in someone's basement tomorrow. (talk) 07:20, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
The idea is actually pretty straightforward, as confusingly as the wikipedia article is written. User interfaces on computers are often mockups of real world objects that are "illusory" in the sense that a folder on your computer is not a folding piece of paper that contains physical documents you can handle, but kinda, vaguely, sorta, resembles one. It's not an illusion in the sense that it's fooling anyone. A more appropriate and common way to describe it is probably "visual metaphor".
The weasel word "Some philosophers of mind" mentioned actually only refer specifically to Daniel C. Dennett, who claims that words, mathematics, and other abstractions, grant human beings specifically a way of framing our senses as metaphorical representations, which he terms user illusions.
from which we have a limited, biased access to the workings of our brains, which we involuntarily misinterpret as a rendering (spread on the external world or on a private screen or stage) of both the world’s external properties (colors, aromas, sounds, ...) and many of our own internal responses (expectations satisfied, desires identified, etc.).


Thanks to this infestation of culturally evolved symbiont information structures, our brains are empowered to be intelligent designers, of artifacts and of our own lives
His conclusion is basically to reinvent the idea of social constructs. Nothing earth shattering. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:42, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
Another reality/illusion post, which is really just a light version of the pointless discussions we have had before. I sincerely hope this isn't nudging open the door to what will elevate into solipsism brainrot again. ShabiDOO 21:27, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
The term "illusion" requires some disambiguation. It can denote the sensations corresponding to an object that itself is fanciful. Normative sensory data can be distinguished from fantastic or illusory data, that is, if one assumes the fact that "the world exists," is a sure bet. An analogue to Pascal's wager, the empirical case, applies here. One can assume that the world exists as we generally experience it and therefore it would be possible to enjoy a life of confident exploration and intellectual stimulation prompted by sensory data. If on the other hand, one assumes the world is an illusion, one must lead a life of uncertainty: since nothing is real, nothing can be certain, apart from the sadness one may feel by choosing to assume the meaninglessness of life.UncleKrampus (talk) 22:11, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Article corrections[edit]

Can I get some pointers? I want to make corrections to the article https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Talk:The_Venus_Project I tried to drum up discussion on the talk page but didn't have any luck. I wrote an essay and the feedback I got seemed to be positive. I went ahead with some corrections but the corrections were rolled back. I'm not sure how to proceed. It's a difficult article to make corrections to since there are a lot of misunderstandings in it. Hansen128 (talk) 05:03, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

I haven't looked into them very much, but I don't think their project deserves the degree of hostility it has received here. It's just a commune people can join, which has a guiding founder just like many other massive real-estate projects led by architects, so it's odd how the first sentence dismissively and loosely calls it a "cult." I haven't heard of any manipulation or oppression of "members." No one is tricked into joining nor prohibited from leaving. Whoever wrote that must think all of the hippie communes were cults? SolidaritywithAll (talk) 05:26, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

I know nothing about this subject, though the article certainly has a pretty negative take. But, like many of our more political articles, I'm not entirely sure why we even have it. Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 12:21, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
A quick skim of stuff seems to indicate that the Venus Project is largely a "utopian city/society" type vision. It vaguely seems a little New Age-kooky, and vaguely seems "out there". "Mostly harmless" overall, however I'm seeing some testimonial blogs from ex-TVP members indicating that the competence to actually implement this vision seems non-existent, so keeping your money and time away from it seems wise, particularly since the founder who actually thought all this stuff is now dead. I wouldn't have prioritized making this article either, personally. OTOH to the OP I think the problem with your edits is that it looked like whitewashing, there is a lot of utopian crap on that website (no matter what they say) that has no real implementation plan (a lot of "buzzword bingo" but nothing concrete). I guess they put together a few demo buildings, but I guess it hasn't impressed too many people. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 14:12, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
I can see why you thought that my edits were whitewashing. That wasn't my intent. I'm trying my best to portray The Venus Project as accurately as I can. It sounds like the primary question here is "What is The Venus Project's plan"? The plan is to build updated cities utilizing a high degree of automation and technology. Cities will be configured in order to optimize human health and be sustainable as possible. But there are those buzzwords again that you probably don't like. I know the Newcomers section recommends against posting YouTube videos but in this case I think it's the best way to show you what is being proposed.
https://youtu.be/KphWsnhZ4Ag?t=1967 (32:47-42:47)
Hansen128 (talk) 23:39, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

Are we done with face masks?[edit]

because i am seeing less and less of them in shops and on the tube. still got mine on. AMassiveGay (talk) 09:01, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Going to depend on where you are. In Spain the incidence is now very low and total vaccination is almost 80%. In northern Spain where I live there are about 50% of people wearing them in the street and 100% in shops and tube. I was in Seville in the south recently and there were a lot fewer masks to be seen. (But a lot more tourists too.) I still wear mine.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 09:15, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
Still mandatory on public transport in ireland. Cardinal Chang (talk) 11:30, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
If a vaccine-resistant Covid-19 variant crops up, masks will grow more popular again. Much of the world is unvaccinated so such a variant could pop up. The pandemic's course is unpredictable. It is like being on the ocean and not knowing if a rogue wave will sink your ship. But the pandemic will end. We just don't know when. Hannam (talk) 11:39, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
Not done in Oregon. Some rebellious non-wearers and partial-wearers, but a good chunk do still try their best. The strangest phenomenon though has to be the menfolk who wear their masks on their Adam's apples when they see a MASK REQUIRED sign, cruising around with their mask-wearing friends as they shop for groceries. Kntai (talk) 11:41, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
kind of riles me a little seeing people with masks on, but not on properly, like their mouths afe covered but their noses are not. is it really so onerous to put the thing on correctly? selfish pricks. AMassiveGay (talk) 12:10, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
Yes. This. It's so stupid. You have all of the inconvenience of wearing a mask and none of the advantages.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 12:15, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
More than riles me up since I'm at risk due to medication. I mean, come on—you can finally as an adult to pretend to be a ninja or cowboy in public and you're just going with selfish jagoff instead? Kntai (talk) 12:19, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
In Scotland they are mandatory on transport, shops and public buildings. Even in restaurants and pubs you have to wear them when not seated (and you must be seated). Maybe one in two hundred people wear them with their nose poking out and I sometimes say something like "Could you cover your nose" and if they are stupid I ask "do you breathe through your mouth 100% of the time?". Proof of vax is required for large events now. As far as I know there is little controversy about this except with a few sociopathic business owners and the typical small group of crazies you will find everywhere. This is a LOT better than what I saw in London where at least 5% of people didn't wear it at all on public transport and I even saw mask-free people passing the ticket gates with security saying nothing, even some staff at a COVID testing centre didn't wear masks. It was extremely shocking how indifferent and reckless people were in England, especially after seeing how strict and responsible people were in Belgium and Spain. With my underlying condition, I felt extremely unsafe there, especially in London. ShabiDOO 12:20, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
living in london, im glad i've had my booster shot AMassiveGay (talk) 12:33, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
I've pettily taken to flipping the bird here because trying to explain to Americans that their outrage at their abled selves needing to wear a mask so someone less abled doesn't die is all falling on deaf ears. Might as well insult them in ways they don't understand. 2020 June I was out at a farmer's market, and a bunch of people sitting over at one of the free speech zones (yes, really) had a banner saying "why should I have to wear a face diaper for a disease with a 99.9% survival rate?"
They were of course, cap-wearing, sunglass-equipped dad dudes sitting in camping chairs. Eager to get my booster soon, before my next meds. Kntai (talk) 12:37, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
Anyone not vaccinated or with underlying health conditions should not come to the southern US anytime soon while this pandemic is going strong. I'd say only about a quarter of customers in a grocery store are wearing a mask at this point in Florida, and that's with the state's shitty vaccination rate. Less when visiting Louisiana, and that's with an even shittier vaccination rate. It shows in the COVID death statistics, of course. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 13:33, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Coronavirus cases due the coronavirus delta variant sweep through a population fast and then decline real fast and this is happening in Florida where coronavirus cases are on a big decline.[11]

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Winter is coming on the north part of the USA too. So that will be bad for coronavirus cases as people are inside more with windows being closed.

If you are able to work from home, have your groceries delivered, and homeschool your children, you can ride out the pandemic anywhere in the USA. Hannam (talk) 13:47, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

So it's not so big a problem if you are reasonably well-off and employed in a job where you can work from home. I am sure that will be a great relief to everyone who isn't in such a fortunate position.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 14:00, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
There is a worker shortage. A job is a rental car away in a low coronavirus state. Hannam (talk) 14:20, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
pure unadulterated dogshit AMassiveGay (talk) 14:25, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
if the onset of winter has such an effect on coronavirus, i am wondering why the flu is not similarly effected by what is considered to be 'flu season' AMassiveGay (talk) 14:04, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
speaking of which, the onset of flu season would surely see an increase in deaths as a result, would it not? AMassiveGay (talk) 14:06, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
roll on winter its masking up that keeps infection down AMassiveGay (talk) 14:10, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
Fully true. As a climate nerd, the coldest state is Alaska with an average temperature of 27°F (-3°C), and other north states with cold climates like Montana and North Dakota also have COVID, and New York is also quite cold. Right now masks are required in schools and certain indoor facilities require it, but it’s not a statewide law. But I have a feeling it will get stricter as temperatures continue to plummet. New York’s yearly temp average is cold too, and the border might close again. Andrew5 mobile (talk) 13:56, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
Florida is also the warmest state at 71°F (22°C) average. But winter isn't here just yet, with my location being well above average. But even then, right now, our average low is only 49°F(9°C) and the high is 65°F (18°C), comparable to that of early May. Andrew5 (talk) 14:00, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
I just travelled from AZ to Portland OR (actually I am at PDX as I write this). Amazing to see folks in my part of AZ be asshats about masks then see so many people here being responsible. @Kntai I only really witnessed a handful of dudes not wearing masks and nobody was belligerent. Granted I was just in OR for 2 days. Probliknaut (talk) 21:20, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
Arizona is about 50% blue and 50% red, but the Republicans their are extreme, Donald Trumpists (although Trump did endorse the vaccine). Oregon is at least 55% blue and no more then 45% red, so it makes sense. However, if you go to eastern Oregon it will flip. (Also, look at the weather. Phoenix's average lows are equal to the average highs in Portland). So in AZ, people are reasonable around Phoenix and in Maricopa County, and possibly in Tuscon, but are unreasonable everywhere else. Andrew5 (talk) 22:06, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
I'm glad PDX is treating you well and is doing alright maskwise—it was a fun place to live. @Probliknaut ​Yeah, eastern/southern Oregon are where people get very "MY RIGHTS," and if you visit Salem (which is a tiny blue drop surrounded by red farmland) I understand the right-wing circus tends to be in town most weekends, especially around the Capitol building which is basically the area with anything of interest. Meanwhile, Baker City in eastern Oregon has from what I've been told an emergency plan in case of nuclear war, the arrival of the triffids, or whatever would lead to the fall of the US—blow up the passes around BC, through which I-84 runs, and sit pretty. Having been there once, I wonder what the hell they'd do with their time... Kntai (talk) 06:25, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
Well eastern OR (as well as ID, WY, MT, ND and whatnot) are being punished with a big blizzard. Further south had a big tornado outbreak over the last few days. Andrew5 (talk) 16:03, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
That sucks, so no to punishment. I don't wish that on anyone unprepared for cold climes. The February chill that hit the Willamette Valley bad this year was an eyeopener in terms of how prepared folks are. The previous years I'd been blinking in disbelief at how squirrely Oregonians/Portlanders drive in less than an inch of snow. Moreover, it got bad enough with the droughts this year that the ODT had to remind people that rain makes roads slippery. Veering off-topic here, however. Kntai (talk) 09:13, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

We're certainly not done with face masks in Taiwan. It's still obligatory to wear one at all times whenever you step outside your own home, both inside and outside. Still, there was never a full lockdown here. Non-essential shops never had to close. And, apart from the masks, which were never a really uncommon sight here, even before the pandemic, things are almost back to normal. Spud (talk) 11:24, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

That's all great to hear. No surprise about the masks being a common thing before the pandemic; it's a good thing, remains a good communal policy in my opinion. Otherwise, is the drought finally over? Kntai (talk) 11:35, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

Every time Ken turns up in RationalWiki.[edit]

When you block him also don't forget to send him my essay: User:BeardOfZeus/RationalWiki obsessive compulsive disorder BeardOfZeus (talk)

I think not. The best advice is BRAT: Ban, Revert, And/or Troll-collapse. Bongolian (talk) 07:27, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Andrew Yang now has his own political party[edit]

Yang has now started the Foward Party How serious should this be taken and should Yang still even be considered a Democratic outlier at this point?SensaurC-137 (talk) 03:11, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

New Article? Revenant Raven (talk) 05:25, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
Given that Yang had a maximum of 15% of the vote in the NYC mayoral race (4th place), it is: not serious/grifting/Russian stooging. Bongolian (talk) 07:00, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
I like option C: standard neoliberal bullshit designed to siphon votes away from the left. 2A01:388:3F5:161:0:0:1:90 (talk) 08:27, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
Yang strikes me as a bit too Silicon Valley-broish to do much of that, with positions in the left-to-libertarian-to-business-oriented-right-wing cloud that occupies that space and a bullshit artistry that isn't quite good enough for politics, given how he flubbed the NYC mayor race. If he were more competent, we could probably stuff him in the Michael Bloomberg / Ross Perot column where which party benefits and does not benefit depends on the circumstance. But so far he hasn't been. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 13:37, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
At this stage he'd probably do more harm by siphoning off casual Republicans who are looking for a serious sounding alternative. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 15:44, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Flu shots[edit]

being offered a flu shot. normally i wouldnt bother and i dont consider myself at risk, though doctors seem to disagree hence being offered the jab, but coronavirus has made me reconsider this stance. at the the same time i dont want to deprive anyone of the jab who is genuinely at risk. should i take it? leaning towards yes, personally. AMassiveGay (talk) 12:15, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Always. You're not depriving someone at risk of the jab. You're eliminating virus's a pathway to someone at risk. It's a good time to get the jab, too, since all the COVID protocols have tightened down on the strains that usually go around the world. Think of it as maliciously sciencing against H1N1 and its ilk with a permission to laugh like an evil-doer. Kntai (talk) 12:36, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
Yes. This.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 12:39, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
done AMassiveGay (talk) 13:25, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
Me and my family got our flu shots today. Oddly my oldest brother always has some sort of reactions to vaccines in which he gets rundown and tired. --Channel 48 EAS (talk) 17:09, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
It's always recommended to get a flu shot. Even if you're not exactly at risk, it's better to spend a short time on an afternoon and get possibly moderately stuffy than catch the flu and be miserable for days. Also the shot is indeed an epic way to kick the hell out of these goddamn disease specks. I remember how satisfied I was to get the Jansen shot because it was revenge. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 22:26, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
It's not always recommended. In certain cases it's actually contraindicated-- for example in my case. I had Guillain Barre Syndrome when I was forty (that was twenty-four years ago) and the doctors note that the flu vaccine is one of the few things that have a chance to cause a relapse. And trust me, once you've felt your entire body's voluntary physical responses shut down you never want a relapse or the slightest chance at one. Kencolt (talk) 15:36, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
So that's "always recommended unless you have some very specific known medical contra-indication" in that case.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 16:04, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Got an idea for a Conlang and I got started on the language dictonary[edit]


Kinda got inspired by the Dutch and Afrikaans languages. I call it "Sayspeak". I started the construction last night. --Channel 48 EAS (talk) 17:07, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Good luck Rationalzombie94! ℉℧ℂⓀ (talk) 00:38, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
Ditto. Good luck! Kntai (talk) 10:18, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
Curious to find out what the realizations of 'dk, gy, wk, bk, hk, su, qk' are. Do you know IPA? I am a relatively experienced conlanger with 4 reasonably complete conlangs under my belt, and I'd be happy to help. Good luck! Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 12:53, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
Making all the numbers rhyme is probably not a good idea. It'll make communication more difficult if you're telephoning somebody with low audio quality. I know in Chinese, there's different names for 1, 2, 3, ... 9 for military use, since some of the numbers rhyme normally. LongStylus (talk) 13:48, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
I admit that I could use a little help with it. --Channel 48 EAS (talk) 19:05, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
I agree that rhyming numbers aren't a great idea. The military adopted Alpha Bravo Charlie to avoid the similarity on sound of letters like 'C, D, G, T'. But I guess the first question is what do you mean to do with your language? Is it supposed to be an auxiliary language like Esperanto? Or is it world building for fiction, like Dothraki or Klingon? The latter project doesn't involve nearly as much work as the former. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 04:41, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

This doesn't sound good[edit]

Welp, Pamela is projected to cause high flooding across much of Texas, up to 10 inches in a few hours. Andrew5 (talk) 18:24, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Isn't climate change wonderful. It's like things get progressively worse with each year. Revenant Raven (talk) 19:34, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
Just like sequels in a movie franchise. Cardinal Chang (talk) 22:00, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

I could picture this[edit]


Recently a vicious disease has been spreading among deer and elk. The disease in question is the prion infection Chronic Wasting Disease or CWD for short. Chronic Wasting Disease is similar to Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy or Mad Cow Disease in Cattle and Kuru in humans. Prions can be transmitted by genetic mutation, sporadic development and infection. Eating meat contaminated with prions can transmit them to other animals and people. Prions cannot be destroyed by standard decontamination methods as with viruses, bacteria or parasites.

With science denialists screaming about their freeedum from getting live saving vaccines and wearing masks to protect against COVID, here is what I can picture in a scenario with a prion disease; keep in mind that the CDC strongly discourages people from eating infected deer meat-

Hunters who would likely deny the very real Chronic Wasting Disease. They would likely claim that Chronic Wasting Disease does not exist or that it is not as bad as medical scientists say or that they have "natural immunity" if the disease jumped to humans. If deer hunting was banned temporarily to prevent possible human infections, the hunters would probably ignore the ban and probably attack workers from the Department of Natural Resources who would enforce the ban.

Maybe I have become cynical? --Channel 48 EAS (talk) 23:38, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

As long as they aren't trying to sell it (and if they did they could be sued) it seems like they'd only be shooting themselves in the foot yet again. You're correct though, but this has been the position of people who don't like what science tells them for a long time. If they're dead set on eating something they're not going to listen to something some people in white coats told them over the pond or across the street. You have to invest time into those communities to change that, you could save their life if you could convince them. But if you have ever directly talked with an anti-vaxxer, you need a lot of patience. I think the real danger is the big companies who have money to leverage propaganda campaigns and harm people on a mass scale, these are in another league compared to your local elk hunter who can't accept that his food is contaminated this season. Some examples of companies interfering:
Profit > Anything else. What I think though, is there may be a financial incentive to intentionally dumb people down so they will more willingly buy your shit. If I were a morally bankrupt businessman who wanted to keep my snake oil sales high, I would be invested in destroying education and science itself. (talk) 01:38, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
Honestly, if they could find a way to transmit the disease to white-tailed deer around here I'd be for it. Thanks to the various Indians who got here first their natural predators are long extinct, so the fucking buggers are way overpopulated for their own good; they're a menace on the roads and wreak havoc on almost anything anybody tries to grow around here, plus (along with white-footed mice) are such tick reservoirs that Lyme disease gets its name from being discovered during an outbreak in Lyme and Old Lyme. They'll even wander into the outskirts of cities, for reasons that elude me. It's so bad that, exactly the opposite of what everyone outside this area believes, people from northern New England come down here for their deer hunting. I enjoy eating venison, there's an Ainu dish I like to make with it, but damn are medallions expensive (ground it's somewhat more reasonable) and it doesn't seem like many other people here share my taste for it. Obviously I'd prefer a better method of culling, but if it works it works. I'm not sure why any hunters would deny any of this, it's not in their financial interest to get prion disease or transmit it to anyone. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:29, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
What I would like to know about CWD is how it spreads among the herds. Typically prion diseases (as far as I am aware) are not contagious like viruses. You would need to actually eat part of the infected nervous system in order to get the thing into your body. So there would be a potential danger to humans who ate the infected animal.
But do deer and elk eat each other? For that matter - what about the wolf population? Presumably they catch/scavenge those populations. So a few questions here.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 09:38, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
indeed. mad cow disease only came about from feeding ground up sheep infected with scrapie to cows. however, scrapie appears to to be infectious through cuts, and can be passed on to offspring. something similar could be happening here i guessAMassiveGay (talk) 09:53, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
apparently lambs can pass it to one and other, and scrapie free flocks can be infected from a contagion in the environment. AMassiveGay (talk) 10:00, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
the above curtesy of wikipedia AMassiveGay (talk) 10:01, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
i dont believe prion disease would a particularly helpful mode of culling tbh. a pretty dumb one with potentially awful consequences i'd imagine. AMassiveGay (talk) 10:05, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
i wouldnt fancy eating the flesh of such deer either, if i was the hunting type AMassiveGay (talk) 10:07, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
Interesting. As you say, Wikipedia tells us that scrapie can be transmitted in other ways. Thanks. Something new to learn every day!Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 14:18, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
The CDC has a brief page on transmission of CWD, stating that it is likely transmissible through bodily fluids as well as through the environment, including contaminated food and water. Other sources seem to confirm this, and the prion has apparently been shown to remain infectious in the environment for at least 2 years. 𝒮𝑒𝓇𝑒𝓃𝑒 talk 23:51, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
Indeed. Looking at your links, two years is the minimum - though there seems to be little or no evidence of transmission to humans. In fact, the probability is that we have been eating scrapie-positive sheep for a long time without any major human human infection. (BSE was clearly a different case.)
But now I'm wondering about prion evolution. I had assumed (evidently erroneously) that it was not infectious in the classical sense. But as it seems that it can be transmitted, then presumably more transmittable variants would be at a relative "reproductive" advantage, and presumably be subject to the usual evolutionary pressures.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 14:47, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
To be clear, my thought is a last resort; I'd much rather more people develop a taste for venison and start picking off more of them. White-tailed deer are a serious ecological problem here, since there are weird limits on shooting them with guns I'd much rather do the next best thing and have bow hunters take them out (I have no qualms about throwing rocks at them myself). Not that I'd feel sorry for them wasting away, I've seen enough rabid animals and animals in "humane" traps (I despise those, and anyone who uses them in my presence gets to watch me do it the right way with a hammer) to worry about that, but if there's a better way I'd be happy to avoid New England being the next England for a prion disease outbreak. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:51, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

i got two belgian buns and they look like boobies.[edit]

that is all. AMassiveGay (talk) 11:07, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

got me some nice biscuits for me tea too. winning. AMassiveGay (talk) 11:08, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
Sipping Constant Comment, w/o any pastry. Sad. -RipCityLiberal (talk) 15:56, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
sitting down with the remaining belgian titty bun, cup of tea, and more nice biscuits. and when i say nice, i mean nice biscuits. which are nice and they got coconut in em. life is good AMassiveGay (talk) 19:00, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
I wonder if your buns have squid inside, a favorite food of those seabirds. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 20:37, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
dont you ruin my simple pleasures with double entendre AMassiveGay (talk) 20:51, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
But I thought this was 'Carry On Rationalwiki' (whether or not involving 'Fork Handles'). Anna Livia (talk) 23:32, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Alleged Rape by Trans Teen at School[edit]

Basically, this is all Wingnut media is discussing right now. The full details keep changing, but here's what I pieced together so far.

  • Teen, Trans, allegedly rapes girl in High School bathroom
  • Teen is arrested, given ankle bracelet, until court proceedings
  • Teen attends new High School, allegedly assaults a second girl
  • During school board meeting father of first alleged victim creates scene, whole place is circus
  • RW media is claiming massive conspiracy to cover it all up

I don't know what exactly happened here, but "male rapists fake Trans status to rape our girls while the media covers it up" is pretty much the right wing boogeyman regarding Trans rights and all. I don't know what we should even do with this sort of story. Coral (argue) 20:03, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

I would take that story with a grain of salt. Chances are the media source distorted what happened to make it appear that the trans person was the bad person when it could have been the complete opposite. I will not say that something like that cannot happen but it is very unlikely. --Channel 48 EAS (talk) 20:12, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
I don't know why some people resist believing that there are perverts in this world. I don't know why a pervert wouldn't pretend to be trans-related if it provided them with some advantage. "Unlikely?" Maybe, but how would I test that without depending upon some kind of religious faith? Ariel31459 (talk) 20:17, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
Here's a NY Post article on it. Trying to find sources better than "Fox" or "Daily Mail". Coral (argue) 20:21, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
WaPo and Newsweek. Focusing on the "trans" part seems iffy, the WaPo story ignores that part entirely. I would too if the detail was just "wearing a skirt", that could mean anything from "fake news" to "faking it" to "transvestiteWikipedia" to "ScottishWikipedia" (ducks). Apparently a previous offender, which is the more worrisome aspect. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 20:35, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
Kind of like the Wi Spa fiasco (which is very much not a hoax, the person behind it is a repeat offender and was already wanted for indecent exposure even before that situation) and the Yaniv fiasco in Canada, you had to know someone was going to try to abuse these protections. People fake having cancer, fake their own deaths, fake being paraplegic for goodness sake. There seems to be a strange aversion to even considering taking that into account when trying to come up with reasonable policies on this, and I don't know why. Even from the standpoint that the real problem is "predatory men" (dubious, since if there are predatory men and women why would it be impossible for anyone else to be predatory), that's an argument for making sure antidiscrimination policies don't allow predators to weaponize them as a tool for carrying out abuse. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 20:44, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
The rightwing media is focusing on both the Trans status and the alleged coverup. As I said, the story couldn't be made more into a more scaremongering tale unless the alleged rapist was also a Black Muslim who uploaded videos of the assault to Hillary's email server hosted on Hunter Biden's laptop in the basement of a Benghazi pizza shop. Coral (argue) 20:58, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
there are despicable people from all walks of life and that includes oppressed minorities. there actions should not define the groups they belong to and its unfortunate a groups enemies will attempt to do just that. at the same time i dont think it is entirely helpful to deny their membership of a group when it becomes a liability. it is not required a oppressed group to be saints to be afforded the same rights as any other, and should never be so. AMassiveGay (talk) 21:08, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
Of course, but the issue I'm seeing is that instead of the issue being "shitty school district tries to make sexual assaults disappear as they have always done", the narrative is now "shitty school district tries to make sexual assaults disappear to push the Gay Agenda". Coral (argue) 21:16, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
questioning of a rapist's trans identity does nothing but feed into that. its not the line to takeAMassiveGay (talk) 21:20, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
Read the Newsweek link -- the accuser was a shit-stirrer who previously got arrested in a June school board meeting repeating "critical race theory" and "transgender" talking point babble. It is entirely possible that the assault itself did not happen, from my perspective. Innocent before proven guilty and whatnot.
The whole bathroom issue is a manufactured controversy anyways. There is an actual possible solution that would avoid all this mess. If you Google transgender and bathroom articles before 2010, the solution advocated was "gender neutral bathrooms", as the goal was avoiding the assault and harassment that is too common. Single stalls in this manner would also be useful to other individuals that may have issues with multi-stalls, such as the disabled and families with small children, so it could be rather helpful for a lot of people (and indeed already exist to some extent in many places). A pity it had to blow up the way it did because now it's a cultural identity badge one way or the other. (I wonder what actual transgender people think, I rarely see what their opinion is on the mess.) PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 21:36, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
all that tells me is they are a prick. its not the line to take. AMassiveGay (talk) 21:50, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
their trans identity should be an irrelevance here. right wing media making claims to its importance to a rape case is only reinforced by engaging them not by questioning its relevance to case or to trans people in general but by questioning the rapist's identity, whether thats self declared, presumed, or entirely dubious and false. thats something only rapist can answer and speculation only distracts from the one salient factor - that they raped someone. AMassiveGay (talk) 22:35, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
This hurts my heart reading those articles. There's nothing I hate more than mischaracterization and the usual right-wing pundits are pushing the alleged rumors of misconduct about a trans teen only to push their transphobic agenda. So cringe, I wouldn't take any of this seriously. (Profile) - (Spoke!) 22:36, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
#BelieveAllWomen UpperZero (talk) 22:40, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
I don't know if it's a dogwhistle, but I am known around here for not trusting anyone on words alone, this includes women. Believe nobody, facts are more important to account for than allegations. (Profile) - (Spoke!) 22:45, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
ignoring the above derailing, what is it we are saying here? trans people cannot be rapists? it the message that all this puts out and its a ludicrous one. AMassiveGay (talk) 22:49, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
@AMassiveGay Yes, they can, like anyone else, but here it is an allegation, it isn't proven true and this might be nothing more than a fluke. (Profile) - (Spoke!) 22:52, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
feel like you are missing the point here by a long way. AMassiveGay (talk) 22:59, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
I am more disturbed by Channel 48 EAS stating that instead of the (alleged) transgendered rapist, it is the (alleged) rape victim may be the "bad guy" here.
Also, I visted some right-wing sites for my research into this, and they are not so much saying that they are covering it up, but moreso (at least the ones I checked) that what they have been saying for some time (that transgender or fake-transgender people) are creeps/rapists has been vindicated. An Advocate (talk) 23:03, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
Why are we speculating on this? What happened was a crime took place. Whoever committed the crime should be put to justice and shouldn't harm anyone again. Right wingers are scum for even bringing up trans identity like that's relevant (it's not). Why is there lengthy discussion on this? --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 23:24, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
Because, Luigi, There seems to be some idea that transgender people can't be terrible people such as any other, even to the point where the victim of the crime is the real bad guy in this story. Sickening, at least to me. P.S., in my notes I read that his dad said his son/daughter wasn't even trans and just liked women's clothes, but the link I have is dead as a doornail. An Advocate (talk) 23:31, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
My nose's stuffed with straw. Who actually suggested we should give sympathy for this person? I've seen assholes on Discord who were excused for their assholish attidue because they were in an unstable country and experienced violence, but I'm not seeing any suggestion here. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 20:48, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
i believe it was the comment from rationalzombie (going by channel 48 here) above. i dont think they quite thought through what they were saying. AMassiveGay (talk) 21:23, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
RationalZombie's little snide is the second comment in this chain. An Advocate (talk) 22:40, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
Well I'm not the only person with brainworms then. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 22:58, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
Reading back, I definitely worded myself very poorly. I was angry with Channel for apologizing for a rapist because of their gender. His quote in question; "Chances are the media source distorted what happened to make it appear that the trans person was the bad person when it could have been the complete opposite" (My reading of it here is that Channel thinks the victim was the "bad guy" here). It made me so angry I just typed faster then I could think, it seems. An Advocate (talk) 00:37, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Every time I see the word "conspiracy" or "conspiracy theories", I immediately think of this:[edit]

BJ SNOWDEN Conspiracy PoorlyDrawnRockford.jpeg Rockford the Roe boop my snootpraise Oscar Wilde 15:37, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

And planned obsolenscence was one of those. (Profile) - (Spoke!) 00:19, 16 October 2021 (UTC)