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What is being irrational?
If one believes that Humans are spiritual beings with a mission in the physical universe, is one suffering from pseudoscience?
Janosabel (talk) 17:29, 25 March 2025 (UTC)
- The premise is irrational (belief without evidence). Q.E.D. Bongolian (talk) 22:17, 25 March 2025 (UTC)
- I’d argue that being irrational is believing or acting in a way that undermines or prevents oneself from obtaining their interests. The relevance of logical reasoning, the appeal to evidence, and whatever else we may construe as “rational” is due to their relevance to maintaining a consistency in values and methods. If such was inconsistent, read: contradictory, then we couldn’t coherently pursue our own interests without violating our other interests. - Only Sort of Dumb (talk) 23:02, 25 March 2025 (UTC)
- Of course, A implies B if B is always true. Because everyone suffers the consequences of pseudoscience just walking down the street. Everything one believes about ones life can have an unscientific justification. That usually doesn't stop us from believing it. Holding to ones beliefs often has a pseudoscientific motivation. e.g., "if I hold to my principles, the world will be a better place." The statement is really unbelievable, but that doesn't stop us from believing it. Zatoichi (talk) 15:09, 26 March 2025 (UTC)
- This whole question is word salad. The title question is, I suppose, tangentially related to the following text. But the following text makes no sense. What is a "spiritual being"? So what "mission" would they be on? Exactly which "pseudoscience" are we talking about? And how does one suffer from pseudoscience? You typically suffer from illnesses - is the suggestion that some kind of generalised unspecified "pseudoscience" is a mental illness? It's impossible to engage with all this.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 18:48, 26 March 2025 (UTC)
- Of course, A implies B if B is always true. Because everyone suffers the consequences of pseudoscience just walking down the street. Everything one believes about ones life can have an unscientific justification. That usually doesn't stop us from believing it. Holding to ones beliefs often has a pseudoscientific motivation. e.g., "if I hold to my principles, the world will be a better place." The statement is really unbelievable, but that doesn't stop us from believing it. Zatoichi (talk) 15:09, 26 March 2025 (UTC)
Thanks (and I am only inquiring), so do you mean that a lifestyle is rational only as far as it can be validated scientifically? What about Pascal's wager?. Janosabel (talk) 17:47, 28 March 2025 (UTC)
- We have a whole article on Pascal's wager.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 11:44, 29 March 2025 (UTC)
Funding
When the total approaches $10k extend the banner line - either further funds for the move or 'funds above [this line] will go towards general RW upkeep (as it suits). Anna Livia (talk) 00:25, 27 March 2025 (UTC)
Marjorie Taylor Greene being... herself.
KarmaPolice (talk) 11:57, 27 March 2025 (UTC)
- An idea I've been mulling over in my mind is why there just seems to be this... unreasoning destructive hatred appearing in people... most visible in members of the far-right, but also starting to appear across the political spectrum and demographics I'd maybe say. In myself within the past few months, particularly after reading some of the extreme stories and upsetting news headlines that have been coming out, I've found myself stricken with just an... unrelenting desire to hate and hurt something... extremism creating extremism maybe? But then where and why does the former start? Discussing this with my one friend and one possible answer we thought is maybe it's just a "distilled" version of everyday frustration to the widespread injustices that most have simply gotten too familiar with to recognize anymore? Perhaps other factors play into it too. In the one video game, Enderal, there's the "Red Madness" that's similarly described as an irrational destructive hatred that appears in people; the game's setting is a theocratic nation teetering on collapse after the literal death of their gods, while a world-wide existential threat looms. Nihilism and global warming? Or another example is "cyberpsychosis" in the dystopian Cyberpunk universe... is the behavior due to an "overload" of cybernetic implants? Or is it the end result of one's humanity being worn away by the world's cruelty? I don't know... it's depressing. Impiricism (talk) 22:37, 27 March 2025 (UTC)
- Or... to apply Occam's Razor; Greene is simply a rather block-headed narcissistic bully. They are angry because their ego is 'under attack' and control is 'being threatened'. They're neither smart/skilled enough to mask their anger /charmingly argue their way out of it / successfully stonewall, therefore the only 'strategy' they have is to insult, belittle and yell - in the hope it makes the opposing party back down. Narcissists crave attention and validation, and Greene keeps on coming out with all this shit because it provides her craving [and why she can't stonewall].
- This is one of the reasons narcissists up to the Orange Negus himself loathe 'the MSN' and their minions [also known as 'journalists']. We saw this in the clip; Kelner was 'yellow rocking' Greene in the best traditions of the press [remaining on-task with the topic while denying any emotional feedback to Greene] which was fucking Greene right off because her usual strategies wasn't working. It's why she walked off in a huff; the personal/emotional 'grey rock' of Kelner meant there was no hand-holds for her to exploit and even worse, at least one American journalist backed them up! You can see while Greene stalks off; she is oh-so-tempted to give another, more extreme lashing-out but possesses enough self-awareness that it was unlikely to go well. KarmaPolice (talk) 13:40, 28 March 2025 (UTC)
- I guess with hateful crazy people like Greene, I have some curiosity to know what events led them to be as such, and then what, if possible, it would take to get them to change. Lack of education and critical thinking / reflection is for certain, but what other reasons too? I assume there has to be other reasons because being a fool doesn't automatically entail being full of animosity. I want to believe that people are generally good, and that it is worth determining why some become so bitter and how to get them to improve because well... it seems like the right thing to do... right? Ah.. to be fair, I'll concede that in most cases it is a neigh on impossible task not even worth any effort... but still...
- I wish people were better and kinder. The world too :/ Impiricism (talk) 21:51, 28 March 2025 (UTC)
- My mother, before she passed, was in some ways a hateful person. Not as bad as some, but hateful nonetheless. I recall that when growing up, she always seemed very convinced that the neighbors in our small farming community didn't like her, that they would regularly gossip about her and us kids. It led to strain in some situations and relationships that shouldn't have ever been present. It was only when my siblings and I were on our own that we really got to evaluate why she was like that... main reasons (without going into the lengthy details) were reflected self-loathing from past mistakes, insecurity, and most critically just a lack of a trusted confidante in which to obtain support and reassurance. Impiricism (talk) 22:22, 28 March 2025 (UTC)
- If we accept my narcissistic theory as viable, my money is on 'environmental'. From what little background I've had on Greene suggests she was 'fairly forgettable' until she hit her 40s [this suggests the narcissism was at least 'in check' until then because full-blown narcissists are never forgettable]. Got hugely into fitness [CrossFit] and whispers of gym-room trysts; my hunch is 'mid life crisis'. This was in c2013/4, which was incidently the time where that nexus of 'social media plus smartphone' came onto the scene - Greene was hugely into SM, almost all about fitness. Problem; there's a significant overlap between the 'fitness community' and 'right wing politics', both in the flesh and online - Greene quite likely found herself washed into the whole QAnon/MAGA nexus by a combination of algorithms and gym bros. Narcissists are very vulnerable to being love-bombed, so it wouldn't have been hard for her to be reeled in. They taught her 'how to do shit' to get outrage attention, and that has become her heroin.
- This is one of the reasons narcissists up to the Orange Negus himself loathe 'the MSN' and their minions [also known as 'journalists']. We saw this in the clip; Kelner was 'yellow rocking' Greene in the best traditions of the press [remaining on-task with the topic while denying any emotional feedback to Greene] which was fucking Greene right off because her usual strategies wasn't working. It's why she walked off in a huff; the personal/emotional 'grey rock' of Kelner meant there was no hand-holds for her to exploit and even worse, at least one American journalist backed them up! You can see while Greene stalks off; she is oh-so-tempted to give another, more extreme lashing-out but possesses enough self-awareness that it was unlikely to go well. KarmaPolice (talk) 13:40, 28 March 2025 (UTC)
- On the 'what could get them to change' bit... I am not sure you really can change Karens. They're forged in the flames of a youth in homogenous suburbs, fully-comp healthplans, upscale malls, Daddy's credit card(s), obsequious servants and utter confidence that any problem can be removed by either moaning, lawsuits or pulling strings [okay, not all Karens are rich, but I've never met one who grew up poor]. It's why they're almost without fail hugely hostile to things like 'Marxism' and 'DEI' because [in a tiny-shell] these are things which teach us that the Game Of Life is not equal and the latter attempts to rectify that ['DEI' in this case being their code for 'non-white']. And nobody wants to reach adulthood and be informed they were playing on 'Easy Mode' throughout and even worse, we propose to rectify that [a bit]. As the economic situation declines in the Anglosphere, chances are Karens are coming out in greater force because their experience of Real Life™ [as in, 'the sort of life proles like me experience'] becomes more frequent. Needless to say, this makes them fodder for fascist movements as a major part of the appeal is a restoration of The Good Old Days™ where Karen was queen. KarmaPolice (talk) 00:10, 29 March 2025 (UTC)
- It seems that quite a lot of the MTG type MAGA heads originate from what some have called “the American gentry”, which fits the profile KarmaPolice has just outlined quite well. These are neither the super rich, nor have they typically attended the most prestigious Ivy League universities, or created nationally successful businesses, but they are still influential and wealthy “big men” in their local area, just like the traditional landed gentry. ScepticWombat (talk) 02:26, 29 March 2025 (UTC)
- 'The American Gentry'
- On the 'what could get them to change' bit... I am not sure you really can change Karens. They're forged in the flames of a youth in homogenous suburbs, fully-comp healthplans, upscale malls, Daddy's credit card(s), obsequious servants and utter confidence that any problem can be removed by either moaning, lawsuits or pulling strings [okay, not all Karens are rich, but I've never met one who grew up poor]. It's why they're almost without fail hugely hostile to things like 'Marxism' and 'DEI' because [in a tiny-shell] these are things which teach us that the Game Of Life is not equal and the latter attempts to rectify that ['DEI' in this case being their code for 'non-white']. And nobody wants to reach adulthood and be informed they were playing on 'Easy Mode' throughout and even worse, we propose to rectify that [a bit]. As the economic situation declines in the Anglosphere, chances are Karens are coming out in greater force because their experience of Real Life™ [as in, 'the sort of life proles like me experience'] becomes more frequent. Needless to say, this makes them fodder for fascist movements as a major part of the appeal is a restoration of The Good Old Days™ where Karen was queen. KarmaPolice (talk) 00:10, 29 March 2025 (UTC)
- When you draw the lines a bit further, you come to realise that a lot of 'MAGA-heads' in general hail from this class; that Greene's [not literal] brother is the 'fuck you, got mine' vulgar libertarian while 'Daddy' is the 'Boss Hogg' type who hates 'the elites' with the same fervour the English 18th Century 'backwoods squires' despised the mercantile-nobility operating out of the major cities. And their reasons for the despising are about the same; advances in capitalism is causing 'the squires' to be squeezed out by 'the plutocrats' while the latter's controlling of the state apparatus is resulting in policies which are at least non-favourable [Wyman notes a lot of Hoggs are heavy into retail franchises, agriculture and construction where the scream for 'cheap, exploitable labour' is constant and therefore is a foe to any rise in minimum wages, labour protections etc]. More often than not, this is the sort of person right-wing politicians are really thinking of when they talk of 'small businesses' - the gentry 'families' which have combined assets of a million or ten. 'GentryThink' infects other areas too; for example education. Their business models don't need that well-educated a workforce and have even less use for scientists, engineers or creatives so they're relatively happy to gut public education to just 'practical stuff' and attempt carve-outs to reduce the mandatory leaving age [safe in the knowledge their spawn will neither attend the modern blab schools or be driven into work at 14].
- But back on the question of 'how to make folks like Greene change'. And the answer is a difficult one, because they generally have an inability to listen, their ego is sufficiently strong to take quite a kicking and many of us have to deal with Karen in ways they very well could make your life hell. The best strategy [I think] is 'yellow rocking'; to deny the Karen's need for validation/attention by curtly remaining on-topic and calm and if there is little/no risk of retribution, to politely but in no uncertain terms to call out their shit. KarmaPolice (talk) 11:44, 29 March 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think it's possible to "change" people like Marge; not through reason anyway. Once you surrender yourself to all-encompassing conspiracy theories like QAnon for long enough, they become your worldview. They change the axioms you live by. If those axioms are out of line with reality, then there's no point in arguing with them because everything which is true will be rejected a priori. Better to stop people from falling down the rabbit hole in the first place. Gabaghoul 🥩 20:24, 29 March 2025 (UTC)
- One thinks of Edmund Burke's phrase: the great unwashed will take only so much pain before they revolt. What pains? These persons harbor ill will towards many ideas concomitant with theories of social progress. Why? A mind unwilling to accept ideas that violate its common sense understanding can either ignore or contend with them. What awoke them from their dogmatic slumber? Doesn't matter now, because they are awake. They were always likely to awaken. There are many movements that might serve as casus belli in civil society.
- There are those that highlight and evoke that sense of discontent with newer social norms and events, such as legal immigration, gendered restrooms, drag parades, and the perennial favorite, "other people getting favors from the government that are unavailable to myself". The idea of losing ones place in a hierarchy along with a sense of isolation and inconsequentiality can result in an acting out of ones frustrations in public situations. Why would one expect everyone to be capable of acting in a way that is consistent with enlightenment ideals? No. It is enough that some people get up in the morning, send their children to school, go to work, come home and go back to sleep and do so without seriously taking up questions of the day. Zatoichi (talk) 22:48, 29 March 2025 (UTC)
Annotated Quran
Wanted to give a big shout out to @Entomoxie who has done a lot of great work on the annotated quran. At this point, we've done 80% of the content of the quran, and have about 10 surahs left to go (all long meaty ones). Project is almost complete!!! ShabiDOO 09:52, 28 March 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks! The book does a good enough job destroying itself, but I still feel like having a bit of fun. Entomoxie (talk) 05:45, 29 March 2025 (UTC)
Trump discussion leak
So - stupidity on a Menger Sponge level, someone doing an Alexander Butterfield or some form of The Beiderbecke Tapes (leaking the worst case scenario with the intention of getting the intended plan passed because it is 'not as bad as')? Anna Livia (talk) 20:07, 29 March 2025 (UTC)
- You're talking about the Signal leak or the DoD classified document leak? Bongolian (talk) 23:31, 29 March 2025 (UTC)
- The one with the reporter co-opted into the discussion. Anna Livia (talk) 00:16, 30 March 2025 (UTC)
- The one which was discussed a few threads above?Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 17:35, 30 March 2025 (UTC)
- The thread is: Joining Whitehouse Facebook group. Bongolian (talk) 01:57, 31 March 2025 (UTC)
- The one which was discussed a few threads above?Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 17:35, 30 March 2025 (UTC)
- The one with the reporter co-opted into the discussion. Anna Livia (talk) 00:16, 30 March 2025 (UTC)
What my crazy aunt is doing on Facebook now
My crazy aunt is now posting Islamophobic stuff. A few days ago, she shared a post from something or someone called UK Glory that said, "If wanting X, Y and Z means I'm a racist, then I'm a racist." I really don't want to talk to her ever again. The problem is, she's one of my mother's few living adult relatives and if anything happens to my Mum, she'll be the first to let me know. I guess I'll just have to not unfriend her but never look at her profile page and hope none of her crap appears in my feed again. Spud (talk) 14:46, 31 March 2025 (UTC)
- Whatever you do, we should respect your choice. If anyone disagrees with your choice you wouldn't really know unless you told them. For some reason there doesn't seem to be appreciation of personal privacy anymore. Your Aunt probably won't change her mind about anything by herself, excepting trivia. You seem to be implying indirectly that it doesn't matter what she thinks--which is almost always true. Personally, I try not to care about what unextraordinary people think because it tends to be mundane and inevitable. It's like getting pissed off by the weather. Zatoichi (talk) 02:25, 3 April 2025 (UTC)
How ...
... the hell are Americans talking/writing/thinking about anything but Trump, Musk et al? I'm fairly obsessed with 'em over here in the UK even though we've got a Tory Government disguised as Labour which should be enough to occupy my mind. Scream!! (talk) 17:38, 31 March 2025 (UTC)
- For the most part it's hard to avoid unless one totally tunes out of news. That's their strategy; it was the same strategy in the first term; it was the same strategy for most of Rump's adult life ("Fill the zone with shit" as Bannon put it). I've even mostly stopped listening to BBC World News because there's currently a >50% chance they're going to broadcast audio from the Big Rump (I don't need to listen to him say the inevitable stupid shit; I can read it if I need to). April 5 will be nationwide demonstrations here, likely to be large, with some cities even having more than one (https://www.mobilize.us/handsoff/). Bongolian (talk) 20:48, 1 April 2025 (UTC)
- Great question. I am constantly watching internet media, mostly YouTube, following critics of the administration. But normal people don't pay attention. That's how tRump got elected in the the first and second place. People who were concerned with petty, personal issues elected tRump. But, given that tRump is destroying our economy as well as the reputation of the US government as an aegis of democracy, those voters, who are working class, will shortly wake up to the error of their ways. Zatoichi (talk) 02:46, 3 April 2025 (UTC)