How do you know? Were you there?

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You have not seen your own brains — do you believe you have any?
—From a letter to the 19th century flat-earther John Hampden[1]

"How do you know? Were you there?" is a summary dismissal of evolution and "Old Earth" science used by some creationists,[2] who weren't there either. This response is a form of escape hatch argument used to question and dismiss any evidence that isn't in line with YEC beliefs. The thinking behind it is that if we cannot personally verify what we've inferred from evidence (because traveling back in time is impossible, and even if it were possible, how could it be verified?) then we cannot be certain of facts and theories when it comes to describing the world as it was millions of years ago.

Although "how do you know?" is a valid question, and one that can be answered with relative ease, the aim and context of the overall question is to dismiss any particular answer to "how do you know?" because the "were you there?" answer would be "no". In the usual creationist model of the world of evidence, uncertainty like this means that the world must be young.

Contents

[edit] Assumptions

The presumption of "How do you know? Were you there?" seems to be that only first-hand, eyewitness testimony is reliable - and so it is illegitimate to make inferences about things beyond our immediate observations. Therefore, this argument presumes that material evidence that isn't reliant on a personal observation is invalid, even though it is often the best and least biased form of evidence available.

When considering historical evidence, first-hand accounts (primary sources) are generally taken as better evidence than second or third-hand accounts and those written down long after the fact (secondary sources). However, this is a mere guideline and the first-hand accounts can often be subject to greater bias, as even eyewitnesses can lie, exaggerate or simply view events through their own political or social twist.[3]This is why gathering evidence about the past is an exercise in the interplay between direct and indirect forms of evidence (particularly the material, non-personal evidence dismissed by this creationist claim), and looking at individual pieces of evidence with a knowledgeable and critical eye. With this in mind, we can unravel the fallacies in this creationist "argument".

This assumption the only first-hand (primary) accounts are valid is notably odd given our attitudes to personal accounts in other areas of life.

In a court of law, for example, eyewitness testimony is considered relatively weak evidence compared to physical evidence (from DNA or CCTV footage) because people can lie, exaggerate or forget events, and contradictions can mount when multiple stories conflict. On the other hand, the more indirect or secondary evidence has not been passed through such a filter of unreliability. The evidence least likely to be subject to a personal bias can then be used to spot or compensate for the biases found in personal testimony. The court of law example/analogy here is an important one because it is often raised as the example used by young earth creationists when attempting to justify their objection to indirect evidence; the underscoring fact is that eyewitness evidence is taken to be a lie or exaggeration if it conflicts with less biased evidence.

The ins and outs of the legal system aren't the only place where we can see this "were you there?" attitude dismissed as ineffectual. It is very unlikely that one would believe extraordinary claims by word-of-mouth and an eyewitness statement alone. Carl Sagan's skeptical parable The Dragon in My Garage shows one hypothetical case where eyewitness testimony is simply unreliable, as no listener (at least no sane listener) is likely to simply accept wild claims without corroboration.

Therefore it is not valid to say that because someone was not personally present that they cannot make a very informed and very accurate appraisal of a situation given other, less biased evidence, no matter how supposedly indirect.

[edit] Contradictions

The obvious contradiction here is that anyone using this argument also wasn't there to see the event and wasn't there to verify whether the anyone else was there. If the accusation is that no one was around to see evolution in action, the accusation that no one was around to see God magic the universe into existence 6,000 years ago is equally true. Someone can claim that the Bible is such first-hand evidence, but unless the person using the "were you there?" argument was around when the Bible was written (unlikely) or has personally supervised every copy of it made between creation in 4,004 BC and today, the same accusation applies.

Indeed, who could have even been the eyewitnesses during creation week? Even if you count Adam being there (the Biblical account suggests humans appeared after creation common sense requires beginning of the universe occuring before witnesses come to be, regardless whether the beginning comes from creation or science or other methods. As such apparently there weren't eyewitnesses to the putative creation in question), whatever he had written will be incomprehensible after the Tower of Babel. If he even had anything written down at all.

The irony here is that using the Bible as indirect evidence is, in fact, valid, providing it's examined with a sufficiently critical eye to understand what it can say - but isn't under conditions where "How do you know? Were you there?" is a valid argument. As a flagrantly anti-intellectual dismissal of the validity of any evidence pertaining to events we don't personally observe, it can be quite amusing - since the person making this argument was certainly not alive to witness the Bible being revealed or written down, he/she has no way of knowing whether what we call the Bible is the result of actual divine inspiration, or of Satanic interference or of a succession of stoners down through the ages scribbling down whatever came to mind and rationalizing it later as revealed truth. The claim that the Bible is uniquely exempt from this problem is a textbook example of special pleading. In such usage, the argument contradicts itself, which is the point.

[edit] If you fancy trolling as a response

If someone were to reply to the question with "yes, I was there — prove me wrong", the same logic about first-hand accounts being the only valid form of evidence would apply. How can someone prove you wrong? They weren't there! This is a patent nonsense as an actual rebuttal and answer, but if people insist on asking fatuous questions, they probably deserve it.

[edit] Dear Emma B

In June 2011, Ken Ham got all impressed and gloating[4] over one of his brainwashed minions victims school-age followers disciples (It is nigh impossible to make that not sound creepy) supposedly asking the "were you there" question of a NASA scientist who was talking about multi-million year old Moon rock.[5] Ham himself was very smug over the situation, stating how atheists always went ballistic over incidents like this — although not without good reason; most atheists, freethinkers and rationalists view Ken Ham's brainwashing of young children to be outright horrifying.

PZ Myers then wrote a lengthy open letter to Emma B, the girl in question, covering in detail exactly how the scientist did know.[6] He sums up the main problem with the "were you there?" component of this loaded question as follows:

One serious problem with the "Were you there?" question is that it is not very sincere. You knew the answer already! You knew that woman had not been to the moon, and you definitely knew that she had not been around to see the rock forming 3.75 billion years ago. You knew the only answer she could give was "no," which is not very informative.

The take-home message from this is simple: "how do you know?" is far more interesting than "were you there?". Naturally, Ham lost his shit over this.[citation needed]

[edit] Fourth-grade science test

The question was spotted in the wild by a Reddit user in April 2013 when they heard their own kid use it in response to a question about dinosaurs. It was eventually tracked down to a "science test" given to children at the Blue Ridge Christian Academy.[7][8] The final question of the quiz was "The next time someone says the earth is billions (or millions) of years old, what can you say?" with apparently full marks given for responding "were you there" (no penalties for a lack of question mark, though).

Again, Ken Ham lost his shit over this, as the test (and presumably the use of the "were you there" line) was tracked down to Answers in Genesis.[9][10]

[edit] General conclusions

No, and neither were you.

The status of this phrase as a creationist escape hatch lies in the fact that it is a self-contradicting, thought-terminating cliché. It is a mindless refrain which shouldn't be taken seriously. Much of our knowledge is about things which are too big or too little, too fast or too slow, too distant or otherwise inaccessible, to be directly observed. Indeed, the real power of science comes from our ability to know about things that are directly and indirectly observable through instruments that are much better calibrated for the intended observation than the unaided eye! This is how scientific theories work: by building up a chain of causality from what the theory predicts, to what indirect evidence it produces and then what direct evidence that indirect evidence will manifest as. This can be looking at fossils to gather evidence about what creatures lived millions of years ago, or it can be looking at what lines and squiggles will appear on a computer screen to show the existence of the Higgs boson.

[edit] AIG response

The above is a valid argument against the "were you there?" question. However, Answers in Genesis does have one escape hatch argument left to avoid it.[11]

When teaching children, we tell them they should politely ask the question “Were you there?” when talking to someone who believes in millions of years and molecules-to-man evolution. If someone replies by asking the same question, as you have done, we say, “No we weren’t there, but we know Someone who was there, Someone who cannot[12] lie[13], who knows everything, and has always existed. And this One has revealed to us what happened in the past in His history book called the Bible. Are you interested in reading God’s history book to find out what the Word of One who was there tells us about the true history of the world?”

We can count up the false arguments here. Firstly, it offers no actual proof; it's merely argument by assertion. Secondly, it still conflates actual evidence with hearsay and uncorroborated eyewitness testimony—whether it's God, Jesus or the myriad authors of the Bible—this alone proves nothing. Thirdly, it's simple special pleading that their indirect evidence is right but an "evolutionist's" isn't. Fourthly, it's just a plain and simple cop-out akin to "my mate Dave down the pub said...".

Alternatively, we can respond by asking what they are asking (again):

  • "How do you know that the special 'Someone' possess all these parameters[14] attributes? Were you there to validate those attributes when the Bible was being written?"
  • "How do you know He is the one who revealed to you the contents of the book? Were you there to receive the revelations regarding the contents of the Bible when it was being written?"

(Please append to the list to your liking)

[edit] See also

[edit] External links

[edit] Footnotes

  1. Flat Earth — The History of an Infamous Idea, Christine Garwood, MacMillan (2007), page 92.
  2. An example of its use
  3. Innocence Project - Eyewitness Misidentification
  4. Their Own Version of a Big Bang, by the LA Times
  5. 9 Year-old challenges NASA
  6. Pharyngula - Dear Emma B
  7. Snopes - Remains to be seen
  8. The Friendly Atheist - Blue Ridge Christian Academy: The School That Gave Fourth Graders the Creationism Test Heard Around the Internet
  9. Answers in Genesis - Atheists lash out at a christian school
  10. Answers in Genesis - Intolerant Atheists Viciously Attack Christian School
  11. Answers in Genesis - Were you there
  12. Let it be on the record that their version of God is not omnipotent, which raises the question of why deceit would be more difficult than, say, creating the universe. And, remember that their version of God so far above mere human standards as to freely commit mass killings and destruction without blame - why would a little white lie about science be so out of the question?
  13. To be fair it is in their scriptures: Titus 1:1-2
    Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
    In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
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