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Sooooo.......I've been dumb[edit]

http://woomyung.com/meditation-method/meditation-method/

It turns out that broward meditation thing that got me down in the dumps is apparently an offshoot of this cult. To be honest the red flags where everywhere. If the $30 consultation and $200/month membership fees weren't enough there were other things. I mean I went to an actual Buddhist center and the people were nice, it was FREE (though they accepted donations, the place was a little hard to find though), and the monk who was visiting and teaching there answered my questions like a human being. This other place felt like a script being read to me when I tried to talk to them and mentioning anything Buddhist or otherwise was just echoed back like a parrot. That and they didn't really answer anything I asked, and wouldn't do so without an appointment.

In hindsight it makes sense, the concept of "selling enlightenment" should have been a dead giveaway.Machina (talk) 21:38, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Look at it this way- You now have the information to warn others like you about con artists. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 01:58, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

I do run into problems with the supporters who claim to know what it's all about :https://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?12,120209,page=6 But looking at it now it's pretty clear who knows what it's actually about and who's just blowing smoke. Those who "got out" or were affected by it can give accurate details and procedure that your average joe wouldn't know unless they lived it. I know in my experience some of this matches with the amounts they were asking "per month" and how they wouldn't answer my questions without payment or an appointment. Even the lady I spoke to freely didn't answer anything, it felt like talking to a robot or someone reading off a script. The monk from Tibet at the meditation center I used to go answered my questions clearly and his English was worse than hers.Machina (talk) 02:11, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

It look like a rather dangerous and cultish method that they're promoting based on their 8-step plan:
Level 1 : Discarding remembered thoughts (The level of knowing the Universe is one’s self)

Level 2 : Discarding images of self and relationships (The level of knowing there are no [false] minds)
Level 3 : Discarding the body (The level of knowing the Universe exists within one’s self)
Level 4 : Discarding the body and the universe (The level of knowing the original Soul and Spirit)
Level 5 : Discarding the body and the universe (The level of knowing the original Soul and Spirit and the world of the original Soul and Spirit)
Level 6 : Eliminating one’s self and becoming the universe (The level of becoming the original Soul and Spirit)
Level 7 : Discarding the illusionary world and the self that is living in that world

Level 8: Eliminating everything, being resurrected as Truth and living a life of Truth

It's worth writing a page on this group if anyone wants to start one. Bongolian (talk) 17:53, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

I believe they did already, it'sunder Maume meditation. The thing is I briefly tried this method just to see, and it gave me a weird feeling of peace (sort of) but then it was followed by some void. But that was if I believed it to be true, I didn't know if it was. It was similar to how my mind make solipsism and idealism seem true just because I believed it so. In short the effects were my imagination.Machina (talk) 23:54, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
It's also worth mentioning that there are no pictures anywhere of the supposed founder of this school or whatever.Machina (talk) 03:18, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Ah, I thought it sounded familiar. I've added a redirect. Bongolian (talk) 18:47, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Apparantly his "books" are really just written to "Scare" you into the classes.Machina (talk) 05:27, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

NuttinessGoatiness[edit]

When goats go bad ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 22:12, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Wipe your tears for Nutty Roux. Oxyaena Harass 23:08, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
For our readers and posters in the UK and EU, yes. The phrase "taking the piss" does mean something else here. Especially goat-wise. Kencolt (talk) 06:14, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
Urine therapy is more dangerous than we thought: it has the power to corrupt goats. Bongolian (talk) 17:57, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

On the Fermi Paradox[edit]

So I don't much believe that interstellar aliens have visited earth. But looking into Thorium (non-sequitur, I know), I've noticed something that I'd like to bring up. The Drake Equation and Fermi Paradox doesn't speak to the idea that we might be interesting but have no useful resources for alien life. We are sending our best, most efficient technology to scope out Titan. As for Titan, yes, let's look at it, go humanity, get us away from this doomed-to-fail star. The strange thing is, Titan has a liquid cycle that's incompatible with our life. Methane is a liquid on the surface, it evaporates and forms clouds, it rains down, and it freezes. As a satellite, I think its challenges (time behind Saturn) would inhibit free energy to the end that nothing could use CH4 like we use H20.

But my intent is to add to the Fermi Paradox. I know that "not interesting" can include our planet, our technology, and all that, so I'm not going to do it very well here, but, maybe there's a chemical makeup that includes intelligence, yet does not follow our own chemical makeup allowing for life. Salt, or NaCl, is literally a frozen version of a compound on earth, and of course we need it. In the expanse of the universe, who knows what's frozen and what's liquid. Maybe a reason to not communicate with Earth has no special parameters other than there are not useful compounds here. If life can be based around solid/liquid/gas, like we have with H2O, theoretically it can be based around solid/liquid/gas, like Titan has with CH4. My position is, if it were true that interstellar or intergalactic travelers exist and brush past Earth, the likelihood is high that Earth's inherent compounds are not resources to those travelers. I still don't think we get alien visitation, buuuut, it might take some time to get across empty space if somebody clued their alt-chemical homies into stopping by, if you wanna get spooky. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:52, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

I understood it was carbon's ability to form complex compounds that was a key factor to life.
Given that Earth presently has satellites in orbit, cities lit by night and other key markers of 'a species that can be communicated with and which probably would not be too surprised at the visiting aliens (only the particular form that they take). Anna Livia (talk) 10:54, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
Astrobiology mentions this and there's a lot of speculation on Hypothetical types of biochemistryWikipedia's W.svg. But I agree that the Earth might be rather uninteresting for those looking to harvest chemicals or minerals. Its greatest resource is probably its biodiversity, ideal for alien zoos and sideshows. So kill all the animals to prevent alien invasion. --Annanoon (talk) 11:08, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

might not they just pop in for a chat? AMassiveGay (talk) 13:15, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

The argument seems to be framed by a few assumptions:

  1. There are billions of stars in the galaxy that are similar to the Sun, and many of these stars are billions of years older than the Solar system.
  2. With high probability, some of these stars have Earth-like planets and if the Earth is typical, some may have already developed intelligent life.
  3. Some of these civilizations may have developed interstellar travel, a step the Earth is investigating now.
  4. Even at the slow pace of currently envisioned interstellar travel, the Milky Way galaxy could be completely traversed in a few million years."
I would criticize the assumptions as follows: 1) and 2) are reasonable assumptions. 3) Has probability x. We have no idea of its value. 4) At a slow rate of speed intelligent beings would be unlikely to spend their lives isolated many thousands of light-years from home, so it is probable only automated systems would contact earth, probably enabled by radio location. As the earth is 4.5 billion years old, the probability y that such an explorer would arrive on earth during the period of radio civilizations is probably no greater than 1 in 45 million. Ariel31459 (talk) 15:27, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
Space travelling species are far more likely to find planets with 'organic soup (of various kinds); - some of which is useful for recharging the food machines, and 'non-sentient life (whether or not as we know it)' than 'sentients you can discuss the weather, awful TV and useless sports teams with, and exchange overpriced tourist tat with.' And planets that do not have 'lawyers, NIMBYs, teenage computer-re-arrangers, survivalists, Professor Branestrawm inventors and other nuisances' are so much easier to extract minerals from. Anna Livia (talk) 16:52, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
Hahaha, so we might also be more trouble than we are worth for the resources, and they could be found somewhere else. I definitely feel that. Things like the Star-Trek principle of non-interference make more sense when you consider we are still arguing about reaching a level 1 civilization on the Kardashev scale. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:43, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Got a question and I am not trying to be stupid. I just don't know[edit]

If a guy is a transgender woman and said person has a kid, does the kid start addressing their dad as mom after the sex change operation? Again, not trying to sound stupid. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 13:57, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

I'd call it a fair question, but one that will ultimately be between the child and their parent(s), just as one might handle a stepmother or stepfather. TheTallMass (talk) 06:06, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Does a sex change matter? If a gal says they're a gal, that's it. Oxyaena Harass 14:14, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Perhaps we need legislation to deal with this matter. nobsI'm all yea'res 19:00, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Banned. Nah, I don't think there's a real answer for this, but the sentence structure does fault a little around noun "is" (implied now) qualified noun. As an obfuscation, you've written a really clever question. But since I know you're not trying to sound dumb or be stupid, the idea that every parental transition should end with every member involved using the same titles is you just not getting it. I call Mom and Dad by Oma and Papa now, usually. Papa loves it when I remember to call him Papa, Oma loves it when I accidentally call her Mom. I would not go so far as to wonder how transgenderism works in a family. We couldn't even get the 4th to work in ours, and nobody is confused about gender there. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 03:09, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
Perhaps we should look to the Bible for answers.... Nope, nothing there. Oxyaena Harass 04:27, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
The kid does as they want, and their parent parents as they want about it. (Also, it's usually not the "sex change operation" that most trans people use as their turning point for how they talk about their gender) ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 13:29, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
Oh really? I wish I knew more, if I could ever work up the curiosity about it. nobsI'm all yea'res 03:04, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
Suffice it to say I'm not an expert, but usually early transition often centers on behavior, appearance, and dress, no medical intervention at all. And for many, though far far far from all, that's where they start exploring asking some change in address, at least among those they feel safe with. I don't want to end up talking out my ass because I personally know relatively few trans people in real life. So I'll leave it with that "Some people do this". ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 03:19, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
Can this be treated with psyche meds? nobsI'm all yea'res 05:07, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
Can what be treated, exactly, shithead? ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 13:50, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

Dealing with North Korea (or other dictatorship)[edit]

It seems really difficult to find a good strategy to deal with North Korea, or dictatorships in general. If you go to war, then a lot of innocent people will die, and they are mostly the same people you'd like to protect from the dictator. If you kill (or just bring down) the dictator, then you destabilize the area creating a vacuum of power that it is usually filled by another dictator, maybe even worst than the first. If you try economic sanctions, these hurt the population and make the dictator country even more closed to the world. If you try to reason with the dictator, you can be accused of being a sympathizer or even his accomplice. If you do nothing, you are accused of turning a blind eye... Thinker(unlicensed) 14:15, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

You're leaving out many possibilities within a patchwork of diplomatic, economic, intelligence, and military responses. Economic marginalization and targeted sanctions for those in such regimes who are responsible for repression, like the Magnitsky Acts, including freezing of assets linked to war criminals and top politicians in "pariah regimes." Banning obvious hostile and destabilizing propaganda outlets (why the hell is Russia Today broadcast in the West)? (Concealed or open) support of indigenous rebel groups that aren't at least as bad as the tyrants they live under. Nobody wants to go to war, but there are things you can do short of that. CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 16:07, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
depends very much on the relative strength and stability of a country, who supports it, and what consensus you can get for any action. castro stayed in power for decades, despite us sanctions, andplaces like Saudi are paying customers. things like human rights only seem to matter when the country in question goes with a competitor. not so long ago, after the end of the cold war, tyrants and corrupt governments who one side or the other had installed or propped up, must have been pretty nervous as they saw their usefulness to global politics diminish. just lately I think they may be beginning to breathe a little easier. AMassiveGay (talk) 17:06, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
I'm afraid the discussion is getting too abstract. My question was really about North Korea. I added "dictatorships in general" but I regret that since, as it has been pointed out, it depends to much on the country stability. Thinker(unlicensed) 17:11, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
Invading North Korea would simply not be worth it. Lets take the War in Iraq as an example. While Iraq had a nutcase for a dictator and he was monstrous, Iraq was a stable country. When we killed their dictator, things in the Middle East went to shit quick and caused further Anti-American sentiment to rise. North Korea, while it is a dirt poor country with a nutcase leading it- the country is more or less stable. Think of the humanitarian crisis that would begin and hate towards the US would increase. Just not worth it. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 17:13, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
its never been about invading nk, its more about what leverage you can apply. we don't want to strangle it so much that collapses completely, it is unknown what kind of humanitarian that would create. and it is not solely about nk. there is south korea and china, neither of whom want to deal the fallout, and china is already propping it enough to prevent that.
even with chinas support, north korea is still starved. we can still refuse aid to apply pressure, but what for? what is the goal? Regime change is not the goal. it never has been. the current focus is on its nuclear capability. to deal with that you have ask why they need it. and the answer is the us. north and south korea are officially still at war. an incredibly devastating conflict in which the us was pivotal. and while the south rebuilt with us help, the north turned in on itself, its wounds festering, stagnating, growing ever more paranoid. I understand that the general public are lead to believe that the us could invade at any moment. the great enemy. its kept fresh in their minds that us is responsible for much of the devastation of war, with the us military just over the border ready to strike. whatever kim tells his public, he is aware they cannot stand up to us might. we can all remember what happened to Iraq. a nuke might give the us pause though.
the us is the problem. trump is the problem here. dialogue and the easing of tensions is needed to lessen the paranoia. convince the north that they are not going to be invaded. build mutual trust that they could abandon their nuclear problem and not leave themselves vulnerable to attack, and any incentives would be real.
trumps hasn't done this. hes insulted kim and hes threatened north korea with destruction. hes been bellicose and reactionary in public statements, and in person kims seen him do nothing but flatter. we in the west mock kim for being overweight and a loon, but hes been sharp enough to avoid a coup. he will have seen trump as transparent. a two faced liar, who cant be trusted. and so the us cannot be trusted. the whole world saw trump wreck the nuclear deal with iran, going back on the its own agreements. hes shown the world the us cant be trusted. that's why north korea will keep its nukes and why iran now seeks them.
south korea have done much to cool things down to keep open a dialogue, but with trump at the helm of the us, the north will keep its nukes. south korea must hold their breath everytime he tweets. it will be them that bear the brunt if a hasty threat over twitter is mistaken for an imminent threat. AMassiveGay (talk) 20:16, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
North Korea is a Chinese proxy. The CCPWikipedia's W.svg controls the military, while Kim has complete control over society and politics. It's a working relationship. Kim is not an unrestrained dictator. If Chairman Xi says the nukes have to be removed so Xi can get a better deal with Trump, the nukes will be removed. Then Trump makes trade concessions to both North Korea and China. Just watch. nobsI'm all yea'res 09:20, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Dictatorships that have been effectively toppled by outside force to be replaced by a stable democracy in history: ... Japan. The end. That's the whole list. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 13:41, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Add Germany to that list too, at least West Germany. Oxyaena Harass 14:17, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
East germany being an awful tyranical state for years because the outside power that toppled Germany felt like it seemed reason enough to not count it to me. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 14:45, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Exactly. East Germany, West Germany, modern Germany and/or Japan are not free to pursue nuclear weapons or its own foreign policy independently of the senior members of the alliance any more than North Korea is. Kim is a CCP puppet who only exists because of the will of the Chinese. nobsI'm all yea'res 16:12, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
that's all entirely false. kim is no puppet and you vastly overstate the control has over north korea. if it was anything like you suggested, their nuclear program would already have ended. despite being its sole trading partner, the supplier of most aid, this does not provide as much leverage as you think. china could if it wished, cut off its oil supply, and kims would regime collapse. that's why they wont. do think china wants to deal with the fallout from that? Do think they would want the us stepping in to deal with it, leaving their military presence on its door step?
china has already flexed it muscles to curb nk's nuclear program, halting the oil supply for a few days after a previous missle test and north korea still has a nuke. AMassiveGay (talk) 17:07, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Duh, what do you think is the substance of Trump/Xi talks? nobsI'm all yea'res 17:22, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
trade mostly. and it doesn't answer exactly what they could do that would rein in kim. AMassiveGay (talk) 17:28, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Since 2002 and Chinese MFN (most favored nation status), China has used nuclear blackmail via its proxy North Korea to rape the US in trade deals. Trump tariffs say "game over." If China wants to continue its prosperity, it must de-nuclearize the Korean peninsula. In exchange, both China and North Korea get trade concessions from the U.S. nobsI'm all yea'res 17:37, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Chairman Xi has already given Kim instructions. nobsI'm all yea'res 17:51, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
that all assumes china will just roll over for trump. they haven't yet. as for the article, it doesn't say anything like what you suggest. more like china will providing nrth korea mre support. AMassiveGay (talk) 14:56, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
Duh, the article says Chairman Xi put his stamp of approval for Kim to go ahead with his bromance with Trump, which Trump demands de-denuclearization to happen. nobsI'm all yea'res 17:57, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
are you fucking dense? the article talks about china saying we should ease up on sanctions on north korea. it talks about china providing aid outside of sanctions or just flat out making a hole in them. it talks about if talks with trump don't pan out, it will give kim 'North Korea to gradually shift from the U.S.-North Korea Plan A to a ‘new path’ Plan B'. no where does say he will have to give nukes and no where does it say china will insist he give nukes. no special instructions. no nothing. you did read the article didn't you? AMassiveGay (talk) 19:26, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
even if trump somehow got kim to end his nuclear program (are you going to believe if he says its finished) it will be because trump gave too much into. we all know how he loves a dictator. don't be surprised he leaves the meeting with kims gis on his face. AMassiveGay (talk)
It's all in the works. President Moon of the ROK will get credit and probably a Nobel Prize, as a face saving jesture to Chairman Xi for bowing to Trump's demands. This will play well both in China and US domestic politics, while Kim and Moon get to share hugs and kisses in an Oslo ceremony. That part of the deal is already worked out. Eric and Don Jr. then get to build a Trump hotel on the beautiful shores of North Korea after Trump leaves office, and the people of North Korea gain from trade with the U.S. like South Korea, Japan, China, and Vietnam has looong before the communist scum of Cuba. China trade with the U.S. is "normalized," meaning it ain't gonna be like it used to be between 2002 MFN and 2017. None of this is rocket science, ya know. nobsI'm all yea'res 23:49, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Freeman on the Land bullshit for all[edit]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zHRQn_IShw

I know the video is entitled "Crazy Feminist Gets Arrested" but this is more along the lines of Freeman on the Land BS. Though it is possible this woman in the video is an ultra-extreme variety of Feminist that does not represent moderate Feminists. This woman uses every Freeman on the Land argument there is. Woman was extremely lucky the cop was not one of the ones who use extreme force. Freeman on the Land is total bullshit --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 17:33, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

You can't fool me, that was posted on Admiralty Law YouTube! CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 17:44, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
A case of them being all at sea? Anna Livia (talk) 17:57, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
@Anna Livia Freemen on the Water, and barely treading it. CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 18:04, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
Obviously a fringe position. Kencolt (talk) 00:30, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
@Kencolt I'm flagging that comment as funny. CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 15:01, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
Will it all come out in the Wash? Anna Livia (talk) 16:26, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Earth is a Tetrahedron!!!! Made a video that proves it[edit]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YD25MmksCA&feature=youtu.be

My parody video is made and I intentionally made it with poor quality. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 23:24, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

The spelling mistakes are a nice touch. CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 00:12, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

Actually the Earth is a Flexagon. Anna Livia (talk) 12:26, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

Maybe the funniest is still #ResearchDonutEarth CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 13:49, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Gene Ray would like to have a talk with you.... Oxyaena Harass 14:13, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
@Oxyaena TimeCube is the ace of trumps of nutbaggery. You win this round... CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 14:25, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
I miss Time Cube. RIP Gene Ray. Oxyaena Harass 03:55, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Social Constructs[edit]

I never understood the use of this concept, and thought that it could just be a social construct itself. I found this picture online, 1, and I can say from experience that I've heard this narrative in arguments online before, e.g. people arguing that the heterosexual family to the left is a social construct, but never arguing the same for the transgender woman, more or less. So what I'm wondering is, how did they come to this conclusion and what do you think counts as a social construct? ཨོཾ་མ་ཎི་པདྨེ་ཧཱུྃ (talk) 17:44, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

No one needs to argue that relatively new conceptions of complex things are social constructs, because the "default" reactionary(not as in political alignment) position is rejection as "that's made up", as if what came before wasn't. The conceptualization of "Transgender" is 100% a social construct, though there are things that feed into that construct that do transcend history and culture, and we can demonstrate some degree of biological basis for them. Just as there are components of human behavior that feed into the social construct of "democracy" that are present in all societies throughout history, even if a government built "for, of, and by the people" would be considered a ludicrous concept.
What "counts" as a social construct is naturally subjective. But the criteria isn't hard: they are beliefs about "how things are" that are, in fact, inconsistent across cultures and subcultures. That's a broad-ass category.
Social constructs aren't any of the following: fake, imaginary, based on nothing at all, unimportant, or useless. If you use the term synonymously with those words, you'll end up confused and wrong about a lot.
  • Currency is a social construct, but it dictates a lot about how we live, and you bet your ass the physical dollars are real. But we've seen societies without it.
  • Religions are social constructs. God might be imaginary, but the people preaching about him in the streets aren't.
  • The scientific fucking method is a social construct. We all love it, it's based on extremely sound philosophy. But that approach would be meaningless to an ancient Greek philosopher, unless you convinced them of its soundness first, because science isn't a fundamental part of all societies.
  • Elections are a social construct. They're important as fuck. But the unwritten(and written) rules about how they work, they're something our cultures has pieced together over centuries.
  • Nuclear families living in isolation from extended families and clans are a social construct. A fairly recent one in fact, mostly dating only to the 20th century as a common practice. That doens't mean they're useless. They can be a very effective way to take care of children in a capitalist economy that expects 8 hours of work 5 days a week.
So the problem isn't with it being a vague concept. It's with you trying to take it as answering the question of "is this real?" rather than "is this a fundamental part of society that can't be changed because of human nature?" ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 19:54, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Conceptualization of transgender as 100% a social construct? Hmmmm... Controversial statement, that is, to put it mildly. And vague. Dendlai (talk) 18:38, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
Again, socially constructed is not the same as fake. And it's not as controversial as you seem to think. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 21:25, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
Question: You seem to be arguing that sticking an erect penis in a wet vagina is a social construct. nobsI'm all yea'res 20:05, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Nobs, please shut the fuck up. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 20:39, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
I don't think I've ever heard any liberal use the phrase "artificial social construct" to describe heterosexual relationships, and a Google search reveals little. Someone did make a stir with some "die cis scum" post back in 2012, but it only circulated on some relatively fringe-y blogs from what I see -- again, I personally have not heard that argument. While there is some social construct to be explored in many things as ikanreed points out, that's a question best explored in sociology terms, and not in response to a rather idiotic straw man fallacy meme. Soundwave106 (talk) 21:06, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

I think, more generally, the term "social construct" can refer to almost any recognizable pattern in a society, and, as has been said, may well vary from culture to culture. Religions, language, traditions of family, gender practices, etc. It is a term of art for persistent social patterns. If one is involved in a cultural tradition, such as Thanksgiving, or a marriage ceremony, one participates in a social construct. The term is commonly used for patterns that are not biological. "Social construct" is sometimes used to imply a nominal fallacy. Since any persistent characteristic of a society may be called a social construct, it doesn't really tell us anything we don't already know when we recognize X as a social construct. As has been suggested, there may be biological factors influencing constructs. That part of the answer is hard.Ariel31459 (talk) 22:38, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

An act of coitus is a natural phenomenon; monogamy traditions (which are the result of public health concerns and spread of STDs), cohabitation laws, issuance of marriage licenses, etc. are social constructs. nobsI'm all yea'res 22:54, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
The arguments I've had can't be found in a google search (I hope), and since the person I was up against did most of the talking, giving me essay after essay about social constructs and the nuclear family, I didn't bother to read all of it. I'm not entirely sure if s/he thought heterosexual families were SC's, or the nuclear family. Either way, I don't understand the goal of it all. What did the one who conceptualized the idea think they could accomplish with it? ཨོཾ་མ་ཎི་པདྨེ་ཧཱུྃ (talk) 23:41, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
The institution of slavery, for example, is a social construct. So are sovereign governments and the judicial system. So is marriage and religion. The Free loveWikipedia's W.svg movement of the 1960s attempted to "liberate" people from "social constructs'" with Women's Liberation, Gay Liberation, Black Liberation, North Vietnamese liberation of the South, etc. nobsI'm all yea'res 23:59, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
nobs, pulling through. Social constructs inform morals, morals inform social constructs. It is useful to keep the feedback loop between morality and social constructs open and fluid and transparent in order to keep power working towards progress. But, uhh, the balance don't seem so balanced, by your examples. Mosta this shit was and still is considered unacceptable by the powers structures today because the power wasn't balanced, what 60 years ago? That's not a very long time to say "we tried it, socially, and it failed." Society has not collapsed yet, maybe modern society is more resilient to changes in constructs and morality than some people seem to give it credit for. Is this because we've stuck to our old constructs, or because we've shifted our morality to accept a broader construct?
We get to define both, that is what social construction implies. Our personal morality may defy social constructions, and that is not good or evil, that's just how it works. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 03:30, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
Co-inkidinkly, saw video last night where a woman pointed out that nations and borders are social constructs. So obviously, like slavery and religion, they must be torn down. nobsI'm all yea'res 14:17, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
@RobSmith The world would be a vastly better place without either nations or borders, and i'm entirely serious here. NekoDysk 01:56, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
People have posed to me "what. would you rather have open borders" as an alternative to concentration camps, as if that were the illogical and unreasonable extreme of the two. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 20:10, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
Yes of course, the logical answer is open borders. Not the system we had before 45 started metering and saying a bunch of xenophobic bullshit. There is of course nothing wrong with this logic and I am a very serious thinker -Very Serious Conservative ThinKKKer lulzRipCityLiberal (talk) 22:05, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
So, wait, if America only prospers on under-the-table labor while anything south of our border is pressured to stay south of our border, who is this big bad that is going to prosper by ripping the borders right off the map? Surely the factories that have shut down have shut down because exporting labor is the correct fiscal decision, but not because fiscal decisions were made without regard to our morals... Why can't Americans work for half a living wage? Surely there has to be some enormous exploit here. Gates, has to be Bill Gates. GAnon, you think the Zelda prophecies were just made up? Gol Sarnitt (talk) 04:23, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
Tearing down borders works okay until Attila the Hun and the Golden Horde run roughshod over your vegetable garden patch. Now, facing starvation, then what do you do? nobsI'm all yea'res 04:43, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

(reset)Who, in your glorious example, would be Attila the Hun here? Because fear mongering about "the Horde at the gates" breathtakingly xenophobic and also laughably inaccurate.--RipCityLiberal (talk) 16:48, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

You are not the body (which sounds like a HUGE stretch)?[edit]

“The "inevitable" demise is the illusion itself. There limitation of having only those "options" is the illusion - the notion of "utility" is what is samsara/maya. When the man realizes that he is neither the doer of action, nor the enjoyer of the strawberry, has no volition nor efficacy and that he is the tiger himself as well as the strawberry as well as the man - then he has metaphorically climbed up and killed the tiger. You are right in the sense that it is not an "option" - killing the tiger is the reality, the true reality, beyond the "options." It is scary because it is not meant for the faint hearted, However, on a tangible non spiritual level you are correct, however if after reading this you still believe that you exist as an individual conscious being in between birth and death and have to get "the most you can" out of "life" then I have not done a good job with this, and have failed you. Truth is you don't need the strawberry, never did - and yes you can "win" against the tiger. But don't take my word for it, try it yourself.”

Based on the story linked here about the Tiger and the Strawberry: https://anandbhatt.skyrock.mobi/3289760168-The-Most-Misunderstood-Buddhist-Story-The-Tiger-and-the-Strawberry.html?success=1

Because from all the evidence that I see and know, even if you make the argument that there is no "Self" (IE little man riding around inside the head) it's pretty hard to deny the brain is the result of consciousness and that consciousness is the result of biology.Machina (talk) 05:29, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Well, it's hard just to be, but which bird understands the hurt of the bitter fruit? Who dies at the claw of the tiger and gets back up? Resident nihilist here. The important thing to lose in the "self" in this story is the experience. Cast off the uncertainty of choosing the sweet or bitter fruit, and you'll subsist on good vibes. But you've watched all us taste every bitter fruit by now, obviously, because that's just a story and that's how it goes. And there's still no use in it tasting fruit, that it may be bitter? At your most brilliant moments(royally, I mean every reader and myself), you are a foil unto yourself. Lonely people only say what they want to hear. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 07:46, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to get at here or how this has to do with nihilism. I mean I guess the one below understands the hurt of bitterness while the one above seems to be in their own dream world. What I think is that the true reality they speak of seems more like what they convince themselves is the true reality. His answer about the tiger is nonsense, and to me it sounds like the eternal human obsession with immortality. Most societies have a form of it and if the reason you don't fear death is because you believe you are "immortal" then that's more like running from death than anything else. But again, still don't know what you are getting at there.Machina (talk) 17:13, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
What I'm getting at is agreeing that people die. I think you understand it, it's honestly not meant to antagonize you. But I'm countering the "abstain from sweet/bitter fruit" argument. If somebody had been that golden bird analogue, and they got attacked by a tiger, they wouldn't be chased so much as just contently mauled. Which is a fine outlook for death. I get my response reads as nonsense, it's a hypothetical story, there's no way to not die by tiger. But just because you're out there refusing to eat fruit when you can doesn't mean there is a prescribed way to die peacefully. Being above the dirt means you'll never roll around in the mud, and in a literal sense, basically every animal loves to roll in mud given the chance. I'm not advocating for psychopathic hedonism, but you can face down a potential tiger or two. It's worth it to see what kind of human you really are in the face of a tiger. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 01:53, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
The way I look at it is that if I wanted to be like the golden bird I would commit suicide. To me the pain, suffering, agony, joy, love, etc is all glorious. I mean when I got into a car accident I was happy, because I didn't know what it felt like and now I did. I remember as a kid I used to be like the golden bird and hated it. I felt nothing and wasn't moved by what other people were, and I wanted in on their stuff. I know heartache, sadness (I was both sad and happy when my dog died), fear, to me that is really living. If I wanted eternal peace I'd die.Machina (talk) 02:43, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
Machina, why does every post you make sound like the fever dreams of someone high on acid? Oxyaena Harass 08:56, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
It's Eastern philosophy, take it up with them.Machina (talk) 17:13, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
“The "inevitable" demise is the illusion itself." I thought this thread was about the Mueller Report. nobsI'm all yea'res 23:59, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
How could you possibly think that given the title?Machina (talk) 03:53, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Machina, I don't think you really understand the culture these beliefs come from, and unless you intend to make a proper long term study of this philosophy, you will just do your head in trying (assuming you haven't already). The fact you present a "self" as a "little man riding around inside the head" is not promising either. NekoDysk 02:03, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

I do, but the beliefs seem rooted in personal experience which people back then took to be some kind of insight or truth but today we know it's just the brain making it happen, nothing mystical. AS for the "self" there isn't anything hard on that, and trusting people hundreds of years ago who didn't know what we did today seems iffy.Machina (talk) 02:38, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

What if...[edit]

...Elon Musk would run for US presidency in 2020 and win. Would this be good or bad (I've seen some controversy about this guy, so.)? Tinribmancer (talk) 10:34, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

The guy who keeps shooting his mouth off on social media and getting into hot water because of it? uh... no thanks. Let him stick to inventing stuff (which, apart from that weird train thing, he's pretty good at). Avida Dollarsher again 12:44, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
A bad thing. Almost any of these Silicon Valley types in the White House would be a very bad thing. We already know how businessmen tend not to do well in office, but IIRC Silicon Valley CEOs are, for some reason, particularly childish. RoninMacbeth (talk) 12:51, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
Simple solution - create a Virtual White House and Silicon Valley Tech Place. Anna Livia (talk) 09:15, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
Better solution: Fling them into the sun. Oxyaena Harass 05:44, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
What has the sun done to deserve that? Anna Livia (talk) 16:26, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
Our article on The Sun should clear that up. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 16:43, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
Make them undergo a permanent vacation on Venus, then. Oxyaena Harass 16:15, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
The guy who falsely reported a safety whistleblower at a factory to the FBI as planning a mass shooting? That Elon Musk? ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 13:27, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
I guess that would be the same Elton Musk who falsely and repeatedly called a cave diver a pedophile (after he rejected Musk's crazy idea to use a mini submarine to rescue some kinks) and who is now going to answer for that it court?Hubert (talk) 15:21, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
What not the Elongated Muskrat that committed blatant securities fraud multiple times? [1] :) NekoDysk 16:52, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
Watching that happen in real time was weird. I saw the tweet and was like "I, a dumbass, can immediately recognize that '420 joke' is clearly making false or inaccurate statements to sell stock, how did some accountant not call him and say 'delete this now'" ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 17:03, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Conservapedia Follies Part II: The Illuminati[edit]

https://www.conservapedia.com/Illuminati

Pretty short and NOT written by Nobsie. CP doesn't seem to believe in The Imaginatti

I do have a feeling that there's something missing and that some things aren't correct, like Washington being a Freemason (correct me if I'm wrong) and that Weishaupt formed the Illuminati to oppose Jews... Tinribmancer (talk) 12:47, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

George Washington was indeed a Freemason, to the extent that the Masons built him their own monument. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱs. 16:48, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
Conservapedia is not too strongly conspiracist from what I've seen, but deep state and Clinton body count are two conspiracies that they do subscribe to, perhaps out of ideological necessity. Both were heavily edited by Nobs. Bongolian (talk) 18:10, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
I know sweet FA about Conservapedia, but I suspect that stories about secret groups using money to pull the strings behind the scenes don't swing their way. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱs. 13:02, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
Just had a quick look. Their global warming article is sort of conspiracy orientated, vaccination is along the same lines. They are against flat earth and for the moon landing though. Somewhat surprisingly their "young earth" article - while short - does not come down in favour of a young earth. (Perhaps I need to look a bit deeper to find the really crazy.)
So while it's obviously bad, it's not quite as terrible as I would have expected. So well done Conservapedia for only managing to be very bad as opposed to utterly awful.Hubert (talk) 15:16, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
The Illuminati as a conspiracy was all about 'rich people pulling strings and running the world', as is anti-Semitism as a conspiracy theory. None of these really break the way I'd imagine Conservapedia would want them to. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱs. 17:09, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
Maybe that's cause you're a bigot. If you'd judge people by the content of their character rather than the hallucinations in your mind, you'd have a clearer picture. nobsI'm all yea'res 04:29, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
Maybe you should enlighten us with your wisdom, nobsie. Tinribmancer (talk) 11:04, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
@RobSmith I have always interpreted "deep state" as the clockwork-like persistence of entities of government to follow precedents and proscriptions of the constitution. I have noticed that Men like Putin, Erdogan and Trump like to use this term. They seem somewhat alike don't you think?Ariel31459 (talk) 17:30, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
You should read my cp:Civil service system article as a primer on the more controversial topic of deep state. nobsI'm all yea'res 01:39, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

What will it take for climate change deniers to understand that the climate is steadily going haywire?[edit]

Hurricanes in Alaska? The Midwestern United States becoming a desert? How about growing oranges in Scotland?

Alright, it would take a while for that to happen. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 18:35, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Nothing will. So long as there is a cold day, rain, or snow somewhere on earth, they'll say its clearly not happening. Revolverman (talk) 20:04, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
The Midwest will become a swamp, we're not in danger of becoming a desert. Oxyaena Harass 20:13, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
Becoming a swamp isn't a bad thing... --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 00:00, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
What will it take? Slave reparations.That will reduce carbon emissions. It's a scientific fact. nobsI'm all yea'res 00:05, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
And what does slavery have to do with climate change? --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 02:00, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
Nothing at all, that's just more of nobs' bullshit. Cosmikdebris (talk) 02:10, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
My bullshit? It was 84 House Democrats and 11 Senators that claim slave reparations, a guaranteed income, and Medicare for All will save the planet from the climate crisis. And you dare question the science behind it? nobsI'm all yea'res 03:34, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
Can you bring up a cite not from some right-wing stooge for once? Oxyaena Harass 15:58, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
(whistle) Yellow card! Red herring! Bonus penalty for linking to Yahoo Answers (really)! Double bonus penalty for evoking a variant of Gore's Law (the variant being an attack on completely unrelated liberal policy in general). The climate don't give a shit about what right-wing blowhards says. Soundwave106 (talk) 16:29, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
It ain't right wing blowhards; it's 94 sponsors of H.Res. 109 and 12 sponsors of S.Res.59, to wit:
(1) human activity is the dominant cause of observed climate change over the past century;
(2) a changing climate is causing sea levels to rise and an increase in wildfires, severe storms, droughts, and other extreme weather events that threaten human life, healthy communities, and critical infrastructure;
(3) global warming at or above 2 degrees Celsius beyond preindustrialized levels will cause—
(A) mass migration from the regions most affected by climate change;
Whereas climate change, pollution, and environmental destruction have exacerbated systemic racial, regional, social, environmental, and economic injustices (referred to in this preamble as “systemic injustices”) by disproportionately affecting indigenous peoples, communities of color, migrant communities, deindustrialized communities, depopulated rural communities, the poor, low-income workers, women, the elderly, the unhoused, people with disabilities, and youth (referred to in this preamble as “frontline and vulnerable communities”);
Whereas, climate change constitutes a direct threat to the national security of the United States—
Resolved, That it is the sense of the House of Representatives that—
(1) it is the duty of the Federal Government to create a Green New Deal—
(E) to promote justice and equity by stopping current, preventing future, and repairing historic oppression of indigenous peoples, communities of color, migrant communities, deindustrialized communities, depopulated rural communities, the poor, low-income workers, women, the elderly, the unhoused, people with disabilities, and youth (referred to in this resolution as “frontline and vulnerable communities”);
(O) providing all people of the United States with—
(i) high-quality health care;
(ii) affordable, safe, and adequate housing;
(iii) economic security;
Show me the science that proves "by stopping current, preventing future, and repairing historic oppression of indigenous peoples, communities of color, migrant communities" will prevent or reduce "a changing climate causing sea levels to rise and an increase in wildfires, severe storms, droughts, and other extreme weather events that threaten human life, healthy communities, and critical infrastructure; and global warming at or above 2 degrees Celsius beyond preindustrialized levels"? nobsI'm all yea'res 19:00, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
Man, it's almost like it's got both economic and environmental goals. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 20:12, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
Seems to me, a guaranteed income, reparations, and Medicare for All would increase consumption of resources. How would that reduce rising temperatures and carbon emissions? nobsI'm all yea'res 20:23, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
Consuming "more resources" doesn't matter as much if you're spending a fuck ton of national effort on generating renewable energy so those resources don't represent carbon emissions, but sunlight. It's called a green "new deal" because the idea is we can make the actual work of converting to a more modern, less suicidal economy into something that benefits the working people, not the rich. It's called a "green" new deal because we're not just gonna keep doing what we're doing in terms of resource sourcing. Call it watermelon politics if you want, it's not an unreasonable overarching policy goal. Implementation is easy to screw up.
It's a fundamental problem you've got nobs, you can't imagine but zero sum games, which leads to hating the poor due to the entirely hypothetical risk they pose to "taking" what's yours.
Right now, today, we as a society are building new coal and nat-gas fueled power plants, and that's gotta change. And changing it doesn't have to be done in a way where we pay wealthy middlemen to do the work. It requires a very different style of government from what we've been doing for decades now, but that's why people like AOC. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 20:57, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
Bla bla bla. $1,000 a month from Andrew Yang ain't gonna qualify you for financing on $50,000+ electric car. (b) You can't do the conversion in 10 years. (c) a carbon tax to eliminate gas vehicles by 2040 sparked 9 months of riots in France among the "working poor" you allegedly wanna help, which haven't subsided yet. (d) What makes you think I hate the poor? Get fucked with your Marxist crap. (e) How does Medicare for All reduce the construction of coal and natural gas plants? How will you power facilities for an additional 30,000,000 healthcare clients. let alone educate doctors and healthcare professionals to handle the case load? nobsI'm all yea'res 21:22, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
Even if you give them $1,000 a month as UBI or slave reparations, it'll all end up in the hands of Big Pharma and the Mexican Mafia, where's it's all going now, onlymore. This global warming hoax is complete bullshit, and the "science" behind the Green New Deal proves it. nobsI'm all yea'res 03:57, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

The problem is that, for some changes, what you really need is a new generation for the paradigm change to hit. (The classic example is tectonic plate theory - people who had dedicated their lives to a belief in land bridges never really gave up the idea, they just died.)

So the answer is really "Nothing will convince them, they are too invested in denying it."

Unfortunately we don't really have the time to just let them die off before we actually start doing something. Hubert (talk) 09:18, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

Even if the Antarctic turns into a tropical beach, denialists can still blame sunspots, or cosmic rays, or "natural variation", or God. But I think we've reached the stage where most people accept anthropogenic climate change, but they don't see reversing it to be feasible (or they don't think it's worth losing their job, house, and car to avoid a comparatively uncertain outcome), so they may as well try and ignore it. --Annanoon (talk) 12:23, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
So what. You still can get nuked in a minute. Get your priorities in life straight. nobsI'm all yea'res 14:13, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
"We shouldn't act as moral agents because we'll die anyway." Interesting ethical system. CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 15:41, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
Pretty sure the odds of getting nuked is negligible compared to climate change catastrophes. Actually, environment-wise, nuking human civilization may be granting nature a favor, cough biodiversity around the exclusion zone cough. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 19:53, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
Considering the severe heat in mother fucking Alaska, that should be a clue that the climate is going haywire. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 01:55, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
  • the odds of getting nuked is negligible compared to climate change catastrophes
Bullshit. I ain't paying anymore nuclear blackmail money to China, North Korea, and Iran. nobsI'm all yea'res 21:28, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
While I share your overall concern, hurricanes in Alaska are unlikely for reasons unrelated to temperature. The Coriolis effect is a rather dominant force in creating the characteristic(and necessary for stability) shape of hurricanes. I haven't done that math, but I think if you started hitting arctic latitudes the relative acceleration of north side and south side would be a fraction of what was needed to maintain the clear eye that drives hurricane intensity.
Oh fuck it, I'll do that math. The relative acceleration of the top of a hurricane vs the bottom in the northern edge of "hit zones" is in the range of 2 kilometers per hour, per hour. In Alaska, it'd be about a half of a kilometer per hour per hour, meaning the relative energy needed to maintain the storm is in the neighborhood of 4x. That's a lot of heat energy to stick in the ocean, even with global warming. For context Super irregular Sandy was still 1.5/hour² ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 16:16, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

is archiver down?[edit]

i can run it if needed Fuzzy "Cat" Potato, Jr. (talk/stalk) 01:01, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

@FuzzyCatPotato It is down, and please do so. Oxyaena Harass 01:11, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
It's permanently borked since Kazitor went nuts left so yes that would be awesome. NekoDysk 01:53, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

rmf 2019 elections[edit]

judging by 2017 and 2016, we're supposed to have rmf elections late july-early august. (we forgot in 2018.) people up for election would usually be @Human and @Spud, but @Bob M recused himself from the board.

why do I care? i wanna run b/c ratwiki still needs a proper bank account and still needs form 1023 for 501c3.

is it election time? Herr FuzzyKatzenPotato (talk/stalk) 01:12, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Sounds about right. I will organize it shortly. NekoDysk 01:53, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
@FuzzyCatPotato Ok it's happening, see RationalWiki:2019 board of trustees election. I will probably put a sitenotice up for the last week of nominations, but everyone is welcome to get started immediately. NekoDysk 17:12, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
I feel bad for not really being engaged in the RMF stuff lol. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 21:07, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Clearer Picture on the "You are the universe" bit I was about[edit]

Soooooo it does seem like it's based on this idea of some kind of super organism:

What it means?

Atoms are not discrete balls floating in space. They are more point-like excitations of a field. (Think of standing waves in a body of water.)

There are no discrete things or objects of solid substance; things as we perceive them are merely changing forms and patterns in nature (the universe) as a whole. You are not a small and lonely being lost in a foreign universe; you are a direct expression of the whole of the universe as it currently is; you (as everything else) is a brief movement in the dance of nature. You do not exist independent of the perceived outside; outside and inside are two sides of the same coin.

The seed is no different from the tree. They are the same thing viewed from different perspectives in time. Birth and death are really no different; waking life is really no different from dreamless sleep.

The nature of the human perspective is experience. This is why we say that we are the universe experiencing itself: A dark cloud is the universe clouding itself; the sun is the universe lighting itself; the rotating planet is the universe spinning itself.

The ocean waves; the planet rotates; the sun shines; the heart beats; the stomach digests; the brain thinks; the body acts. These events are no different in nature. The thinker of thoughts is the waver of oceans, not a little man behind the eyes of the body; the waver of the ocean is spontaneous, as is the thinker of thoughts. Nature is not being moved; nature flows without direction; nature is not concerened with tomorrow, for it is dancing today.

Look at a tree, see how it moves in the wind.

Notice your thoughts arising, even the thought "I am thinking."

Notice that the movement of the tree and the movement of thought are two expressions of the same thing.

Stop labeling the tree and yourself; notice that all separation is a consequence of the labeling process; allow all boundaries to dissolve.

Feel the swaying of the tree as much as you feel the arising thoughts and the other bodily sensations.

Feel intuitively that what you refer to as I is a form in the universe experiencing itself.

The reddit page has similar replies: https://www.reddit.com/r/StonerPhilosophy/comments/2n1qn3/a_question_about_universe_experiencing_itself/

Granted I don't know much about physics or quantum physics thereof so can anyone clarify this for me?Machina (talk) 02:03, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

This is pseudo-spiritualism, commonly dreamed up while high on drugs hence why it's on r/StonerPhilosophy. :D NekoDysk 02:06, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
Can you explain why, because the science behind it seems pretty sound to me:

If you understand this and it is not significant, than you have known it for a while now.

I think the aha moments mostly come from people raised to believe in predestination or our bodies being a "temple" kind of thinking. It can often be rather disturbing to those who haven't before thought about the meaning, or lack there of, of sentient life among a universe filled with inanimate matter.

For me it was looking into my friends eyes and realizing that there really isn't that big of a separation between me and him at the atomic level, we are just atoms rearranged to move through space unpredictably, and at our most deconstructed for we are no more than the minerals in the earth.

The shock comes from (for me) the realization that everything you have ever experienced, everything everyone has experienced, all the pain, anguish, love, and efforts we put into our lives is done and experienced by nothing more than a unique collections of particles, nothing more. It can bring about a certain fear, carelessness or comfort to one's live when you understand that all human emotion is but a complex electric signal communication network between cells and that all conscious observers are really all the same being that split into two cells at the beginning of life. We share one consciousness with all other life forms. There is no self. The individual is an illusion. Death of the ego.

— Unsigned, by: Machina / talk / contribs

What part of this nihilistic view on a universal hive mind is supported by science again? NekoDysk 03:16, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
The part about atoms not being discrete and solid units.Machina (talk) 05:54, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
@Dysklyver I remember talking with a psychology grad student who was doing work on correlation between prolonged hallucinogen use and propensity to belive in flat earth. I don't know if there was anything published on it. CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 03:34, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
I'm more looking for a response about the atoms bit.Machina (talk) 05:54, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
I think theoretically yes, but there is so much being taken from that it's hard to tell. An I am not an expert on atomic physics. NekoDysk 11:51, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
It is kinda sorta close to the quantum physics atom and standing waves has been used as an analogy for atomic orbit. The next sentence ("no discrete things or objects of solid substance") isn't really a conclusion I'd derive from that, as it takes an awful lot of energy to change from one atom to another. The rest of that Desiderataish stuff makes me want to reach for my New Age wall of keyboards for proper accompaniment. Soundwave106 (talk) 15:46, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

I’m not entirely sure what that means, but I knew that atoms where made of smaller particles.Machina (talk) 14:22, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Well, it's important to understand how an atom actually works if you want to be concerned about how parts aren't actually "touching". A bunch of forces mediating the positions and energy levels of probability waves that never actually occupy space in the traditional sense. Everything is held in place by quite literal force fields. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 00:18, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
So how does that apply to the above about being the universe?Machina (talk) 02:53, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
I don't know, I think I imagined the part I replied to. Weird. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:14, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Attention Ratwikians[edit]

Y'all collectively invited to stick yourselves and your mates on the nomination page of the 2019 RationalMedia Foundation election. Have fun. :) NekoDysk 17:35, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Vote for me and get a free Triceratops! (while stocks last) Avida Dollarsher again 18:41, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
If I am nominated again I will run on a platform of figuring out how to set up a mobile version of the site. I will not however, nominate myself. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 19:03, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
@GrammarCommie We already have the mobile version planned since I outlined the deployment in February, it just takes time to get it actually installed, although Tim Starling will be doing that soon now. It is frustrating it takes so long for sure though. NekoDysk 19:24, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
@Dysklyver I see. In that case I have no platform, and thus no reason to run if nominated. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 19:56, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
Well I nominated you, so you can stop saying if. =-) 71.3.195.138 (talk) 00:54, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
Of course I would say "if". There was no guarantee of me being nominated (though the odds were high that someone would nominate me, probably because of how active I tend to be.) I honestly don't know what other reason people have for nominating me, given that I had no platform and have expressed little desire to run. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 02:26, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
If elected, I promise to write to Andrew Yang and ask for $1,000 a month for each and every Ratwikians. nobsI'm all yea'res 21:30, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
Who's the BoN that nominated both Nobs & Mona? Also, Mona being a "Sensible Liberal Woman"? She's a Conspiracy nut that believes that the zionists are out to take over the world. Tinribmancer (talk) 11:11, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
A troll probably, but since they followed the correct procedure it's allowed so meh. Bongolian dealt with Mona and PB3 already. NekoDysk 15:51, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

If intelligent aliens landed on Earth, creationists would be hard pressed to explain it away[edit]

Like life on Earth, alien life would have to obey the laws of physics which disprove creationism. Now, that life would have had to evolve and take the time to engineer technology to travel millions of light years. Unless they claimed some sort of Anti-Christ thing, they would have no other explanation. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 02:33, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

There are already a vast number of facts available here on the earth which easily disprove creationism. If creationists are able to double-think their way around them I'm not sure that an alien visitation would make a lot of difference.Hubert (talk) 07:36, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
Oh, come on! Creationists wouldn't accept that life would have had to have evolved on another planet. They'd just believe that it had been created there. Most would believe it had been created by God and some probably would believe it had been created by the Devil. Then, much like when the Europeans first met the peoples of the Americas, the question would be did the aliens have souls and could they be saved by teaching them the Gospels. I know theologians have already wondered whether Jesus was just the Saviour of the Earth or the Saviour of the Universe and if he would have had to have died over and over again on different planets in order to save the souls of their inhabitants. Spud (talk) 07:47, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
The creationists I knew (Seventh Day Adventists) were perfectly fine with the idea of life on other planets, and even thought that a particular biblical verse implied it. Avida Dollarsher again 11:12, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
Actually, I'd be prepared to bet that not even flat-earthers would change their minds after an añien visitation. If you can ignore the existing obvious evidence - what difference would more evidence make?Hubert (talk) 14:54, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
My casual examination of Christian history suggests that insular culture-centric visions of christianity that rejected the humanity and salvation of "savages" quickly adapted versions that were inclusive because minds are actually fairly flexible and dogma isn't forever. I don't see why "Jesus died for your species too" wouldn't immediately arise, though probably simultaneously contrasted with versions that claimed that aliens have no soul. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:49, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
There's always the possibility God gave these aliens their own Jesuses as well. Oxyaena Harass 16:14, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
So that was what God was discussing with his sons in the Book of Job. What about the daughters and 'entities of all other genders'?
Where does this fit into the discussion? Anna Livia (talk) 16:17, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
If God in his sovereign power chose to create intelligent space aliens (in your idiom) I doubt Creationists would object or deny God's right to do so. nobsI'm all yea'res 18:23, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
On the other hand, what if ETs landed on earth and confirmed Genesis as being for realz and said that atheists are stupid? 2607:FB90:6A57:FD63:0:7:C1A9:4901 (talk) 22:01, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
If extraterrestrial aliens landed on earth, Creationists would shout Hallelujah and cite it as proof that God exists. What other explanation could there be? nobsI'm all yea'res 22:11, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
If genesis was literally correct then aliens would not exist. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 22:24, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
What part of the bible says that God never created life on any othe planets? 2607:FB90:6A57:FD63:0:7:C1A9:4901 (talk) 22:34, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
No. That's not how this works. Cite the Bible version, chapter(s), and verse(s) that support your claim. You made it, you back it. Don't even try to shift the burden of proof to me. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 22:37, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
Oh, I almost forgot! Since you specifically used Genesis, you are also restricted exclusively to that book. Have fun! ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 01:50, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
Another thing, I read the Book of Genesis myself and it strictly mentions the Heavens and the Earth. That would be a major challenge. Good luck dude. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 02:37, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
Just Google the phrase "Thou knowest not" and you'll find a treasure trove of answers. For example, Jeremiah 33:3 says Call upon God, and he'll show you space aliens. Or John 13:7, Jesus says he was working on space aliens just then. nobsI'm all yea'res 03:18, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
@RobSmith I get the impression from the tone of your last reply that you might view this whole thing humorously. In case you do not, only quotes from Genesis count (Since that was part of the original claim), though you are free to use any version of the Bible that you prefer. PS: I've already beaten all the apologists to the punch, but I will not disclose my answer to the claim until the BoN reveals theirs. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 03:36, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
Oh Jezuz. Let's begin with "God created the heaven(s)" plural. nobsI'm all yea'res 03:43, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
"Heavens", a common poetic rendering of "the sky". Example, "the heavens are beautiful tonight, are they not?" ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 03:54, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
If we're going to be pedantic, it's the dual case in Ancient Hebrew, not plural. CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 04:08, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
It's all relative.; God is deliberately ambiguous at times cause he knows people are stupid in their pride. Now, where Ikanreed says, "I don't see why "Jesus died for your species too" wouldn't immediately arise" is a more interesting point. We know God created man in his image, so why he created space aliens is anybodies guess. Are we suppose treat them with the same good grace and common courtesy that, say Antifa, treats a fellow human being with a MAGA hat? nobsI'm all yea'res 04:13, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
In theory, loving thy neighbor is the second most important commandment in Christianity, but we know how things go in practice. On the one hand, Bible woo and alien woo go hand in hand on the History Channel, showing that pseudomystical spiritual babble can appear in many forms and be perfectly acceptable. On the other hand, many human societies seem to have a fair bit of difficulty dealing with foreign humans, let alone presumably a completely different species. I presume that whatever side is taken, fundies will quote mine the Bible to support their opinion as usual.Soundwave106 (talk) 12:12, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
"God is deliberately ambiguous at times cause he knows people are stupid in their pride" So are you going to cite the version, chapter, and verse? Or are you going to hide behind "interpretation" and semantics? We know God created man in his image No, we do not. We have no more evidence of that than we have for the events described in the pages of a thousand and one nights. Or the epic of Gilgamesh, or the tales of Monkey, or the events depicted within the Silmarillon, or even the creation story recounted in Butcher Bird. All of these have equal merit, as they are all works of fiction. But that wasn't the claim. The claim was that belief in a biblically literal account of Genesis is compatible with belief in extraterrestrial life. "Are we suppose treat them with the same good grace and common courtesy that, say Antifa, treats a fellow human being with a MAGA hat?" Red herring, not relevant. Cite chapter(s), verse(s), and bible version. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 12:16, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
This whole debate with Nobs just serves to prove the point. There is absolutely no way that seeing aliens land would persuade dyed-in-the-wool creationists that anything has changed. They did not arrive at the conclusions they hold through logic and evidence. (They were just put there by their parents.) As they did not arrive to these beliefs through logic and evidence it is highly unlikely that logic and evidence (even the most extreme evidence) will cause them to give up these beliefs.Hubert (talk) 13:41, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
Without being denigrating or offensive, let me say, the last two comments do more to betray the posters own shortsightedness and bias than to indict the Christian faithful or Creationists. As to pride, you have to look to what God says on the subject in its entirety (you can begin with Prov. 6:7 or Gen. 3:6; Isa 2:11 ties into what I'm about to say also).
I'm going to preach on Isaiah chapter 2, but let's focus on verse 8 (the globalist United Nations uses Isaiah 2:4 on their headquarters, and verse 6 speaks of population replacement). Verse 8: "They worship the work of their hands (the first half of the verse, "their land is full of idols" speaks of pride, i.e. replacing God with an idol = a manifestation of pride). They worship the work of their hands. This refers to a owning a BMW. It also refers to the Hubble Space Telescope. And the microchip. It refers to funding an economic stimulus program, slave reparations, and Andrew Yang's promise of $1,000 a month. It refers to Kim jong-un and North Korea's nuclear program. It refers to Huwai and Chinese tariffs. (It refers to healthcare as a human right, but let's not digress right now).
Back on point. Obviously, space aliens would not be "the work of their own hands. This is simple logic. While I'm a grateful my parents steered me in a certain direction, I didn't learn these details from them. I did learn to study, absorb, digest, and analyze subject material moreless on my own, with their encouragement. I'm grateful to God for revealing, and even inspiring me with what he has revealed to me. Why he did it, I haven't a clue. And I do know it wasn't to feed my own personal vanity and pride. nobsI'm all yea'res 15:07, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
And we see more of the same. We talk about logic and evidence and the fundie Christian quotes their favourite multiple-interpretation work of fiction. I'm not saying that none of them can be moved by evidence, but it's clear that it's really really difficult for them.Hubert (talk) 17:14, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
"...what if ETs landed on earth and confirmed Genesis as being for realz..." Rob, you have one last chance. Where in Genesis, is the quoted assertion supported. Chapter(s), verse(s), and you are allowed to use whichever version of the bible you think proves the claim. All of your previous comment is off topic conspiracy mongering meant to divert from the initial claim. If you wish to step up to back the BoN's assertion, fine, do so. But I will hold your toes so close to the fire they're scorched off if it means getting a straight answer out of you. This isn't hard. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 15:20, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Nice try. But no ever said, AFAIK, that space aliens don't exist. Genesis says God created all things. Logic makes an assumption that the probability of space aliens is remote. A hypothetical assumption about a remote estimation is hardly proof Creationism or God is bunk. In fact, it's a pretty lame argument the BoN makes for a weak premise to bolster your own biases. nobsI'm all yea'res 15:28, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

The point is more BoN made a shit argument, no less a fundie authority than Billy Graham says the Bible has nothing to say about aliens. Nothing for, nothing against. Just nothing. It's pretty simple. Soundwave106 (talk) 15:34, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
Ding ding ding!! And @Soundwave106 wins the prize! You have won a shiny new goat! (though if one wanted to be technical and more than a little intellectually dishonest, one could point out that since God does not originate on Terra Firma, he is a de facto extraterrestrial. Though again, this argument requires more than a smidge of of intellectual dishonesty since it relies on a Motte and bailey style structure.) ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 15:41, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
Speaking of dishonest argumentation, you seem to demand at once that the devout consolidate biblical literalism with space aliens while also dismissing from the getgo God (and probably all heavenly beings mentioned in the Bible) being labeled an alien as dishonest. If you want religious texts to be analyzed in accordance with naturalism, how would God not be an extraordinary sort of immortal alien lifeform which creates order within the shapeless void by e.g. generating a universe-ranging morphic field? As to the original question, it's obvious that visiting space aliens would be considered either angels or demons. 2A02:1810:4D34:DC00:5D52:E700:16FC:2A2C (talk) 18:44, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
The intuitive naturalistic perspective on god is "not present" as there are no natural forces and phenomena attributable thereto. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 19:26, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
You're misframing the question. Theists and atheists generally agree on the laws of nature deriving from a centralized absolute (God creating order vs a Big Bang from quantum fluctuations). The disagreeance is the properties and uniqueness ascribed to this centralized absolute. 2A02:1810:4D34:DC00:5D52:E700:16FC:2A2C (talk) 19:42, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
Okay, thank you for your unnecessary elaboration on the laws of physics, then. I'll file it next to "the speed of light is limited by little tiny quark sized police cars" ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 19:50, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
Huh? 2A02:1810:4D34:DC00:5D52:E700:16FC:2A2C (talk) 19:51, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
I'm saying the nature of the difference in perspective you treat as so minimal, in a philosophical sense, is a really profound abuse of science, and really quite unreasonable, at its core. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 19:53, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
I have actually made no claim that the difference between the ways these centralized absolutes are thought about is minimal, as opposed to light years apart. But the focus on whether God 'exists/is present' detracts from discussing and comparing the relevant ascribed qualities in favour of both sides affirming their own positions within their own frameworks. 2A02:1810:4D34:DC00:5D52:E700:16FC:2A2C (talk) 20:04, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
"God" is an unessary addition to physics, one added by theists so they can feel like their favorite book is still relevant in a modern world that has made it obsolete. I can get just as much wisdom, if not more, from those other books I reeled off earlier, without having to believe them to be true accounts. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 20:42, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
See? People don't even try to hide it's about affirming "my modern framework is correct" vs "my traditional framework is correct". Meanwhile, nothing of substance is actually discussed. Sigh. 2A02:1810:4D34:DC00:5D52:E700:16FC:2A2C (talk) 20:48, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
"Nothing of substance is discussed, just the pointless underlying epistemology of literally how truth itself is derived." ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 21:00, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
The off-hand dismissal of vague terms without discussion of any underlying qualities is apparently how truth itself is derived? Remarkable. 2A02:1810:4D34:DC00:5D52:E700:16FC:2A2C (talk) 21:05, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
Almost, the unnecessary and unjustified inclusion into an otherwise evidence-based body of knowledge is super relevant though. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 22:26, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
God is usually a vague term, therefore all religious thought should be dismissed out of hand? Seems like a non sequitur. I doubt anyone disagrees that "God" is not a rigorous scientific term, but that doesn't tell us anything about which religious notions may or may not correspond with reality or may be meaningful for scientific inquiry. If scientists can speculate about this universe being a simulation from an alien civilization, why not likewise consider the possibility of an alien entity with the inherent ability to sustain an ordered universe? 2A02:1810:4D34:DC00:5D52:E700:16FC:2A2C (talk) 22:58, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
Honestly, this just comes off as an argumentum ad fastidium based on anti-religious bias. 2A02:1810:4D34:DC00:5D52:E700:16FC:2A2C (talk) 23:02, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
Well for one reason, cosmologists don't speculate about the universe being a simulation from an alien civilization and Elon Musk is not a scientist.. Genesis begins..."[1:1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth,
[1:2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.
[1:6] And God said, "Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.
[1:7] So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so."
It seems that Genesis would have it that everything was made from water. This is reasonable since that's exactly what Thales of Miletus thought. (620-546 BCE). So, it seems likely that the author of those lines from Genesis was a student of Thales. I suppose it goes without saying that God must have created the universe because either there is not much to do in a void, or He was tired of swimming.Ariel31459 (talk) 23:42, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
Last I checked Neil deGrasse Tyson was an astrophysicist. Also, you folks should make up your mind if biblical literalists are dumb for interpreting every word in the Bible literally or whether literalism is always appropriate. As for your last bit: pure conjecture. So much for scientific standards, hmm. 2A02:1810:4D34:DC00:5D52:E700:16FC:2A2C (talk) 23:59, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
Since the traditional date of the first written form of Genesis is circa the 6th century BCE I am indeed serious about the author getting his ideas from Thales, who was the most famous of all Greek Natural philosophers. Also, Tyson was probably just playing. Simulated reality is a philosopher's game.Ariel31459 (talk) 00:15, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

Prometheus[edit]

I'm not a big fan of the later Alien movies, Prometheus and Alien Covenant. These two movies depict an advanced race of "Engineers" who are devoted to their own religion. I found it a revolting supposition. They supposedly seeded the earth with life. Not only this, but according to the insinuations of the plot, the Engineers sent Jesus to earth and were subsequently so outraged by the mistreatment and execution of Jesus that they decided to destroy human life on earth. Not my cup of tea.Ariel31459 (talk) 16:02, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

The plot is pretty sketchy in some points. But if humanity is anything to go by, spacefaring species combining religion with terraformation doesn't seem very farfetched, honestly. Remember this? 2A02:1810:4D34:DC00:5D52:E700:16FC:2A2C (talk) 19:02, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

Johnson vs. Hunt[edit]

Is Hunt less of an asshole than Johnson? Tinribmancer (talk) 12:14, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

Well, last month, Victoria Derbyshire called him "Jeremy Cunt" live on BBC TV only one week after Nicky Campbell had also called him "Jeremy Cunt" live on BBC radio. So he must be a bit of a twat. Spud (talk) 12:40, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
boris is clearly the worse choice. he has literally no plan of his own, saying only what he thinks people want to hear. but its a real sophies choice here. both are cunts offering a fantasy of low taxes and increased public spending. no prizes for guessing which will be abandoned when reality forces their hand. boris is the one committed to a no deal Brexit, and the glimpses we get of his actual opinions have been racist and homophobic. it will be like toad of toad hall as pm. 12:50, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
Does BJ give oral? Oxyaena Harass 13:14, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
lol. Tinribmancer (talk) 13:47, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

Google listening in on your conversations in your home via your computer[edit]

One of our click-bait newspapers claims that Google is doing this. Anyone heard of this today and whether this is true or not? They also claim that their source is one of our news channels. Tinribmancer (talk) 14:23, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

That sounds like an exaggerated bastardization of the various concerns brought up with voice assistance technology, which usually isn't on PCs but is on phones, and from what I can see does not record continuously. There is a similar concern with home assistance technologies (see this story on Amazon Alexa) but again, this is not a personal computer. Some computer malware that acts as remote access tools (RATs) have this ability. Soundwave106 (talk) 15:45, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

Gurdjieff tells how "the bell tower-ringer in a small town changed his life by cursing before ringing the bell. The bell-ringer realized that everyone was cursing him every morning, noon and night for disturbing them with the bell and so, by cursing them first, he somehow deflected their negative energy." So, by all means curse at all of your household appliances as part of your daily ritual. Ariel31459 (talk) 16:17, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

Gong by 99% of mobile phone calls one should feel sorry for Alexa and friends - and they and the computers 'behind' them are being given sufficient brain(-equivalent)-rot for the singularity/the basilisk to be put on hold indefinitely. Anna Livia (talk) 16:32, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
Google literally owns my life at this point. I'm not OK with it, but it is a fact. --RipCityLiberal (talk) 16:52, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
theres always bing AMassiveGay (talk) 16:59, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
Bing doesn't make phones.RipCityLiberal (talk) 17:49, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
Bing's parent company does. 2607:FB90:9141:B2E2:0:3:60A7:AE01 (talk) 02:13, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

So, these are the articles (both can be translated via GT or whatever translation site). Seems to be about the google speaker & Google assistant app. Both sites claim this to be big news several hours ago. If this is the case, why can't I find anything about it on CNN, NBC, Al-Jazeera, BBC World or abc (I've been checking some international sites)? Not even Wikipedia has it in their current news bulletin. Shouldn't this be seen as something big? Tinribmancer (talk) 17:08, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

because its old news AMassiveGay (talk) 17:23, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
I think the triangulation algorithm is more powerful than we give it credit for, and peoples' aptitude to use their phones/computers to take another look at whatever they are talking about feeds into this. I don't think Google or Facebook or Amazon or Apple needs to listen to your conversations to know who you spend most of your time with and what you and they spend unusual time looking at on the internet. I can say "OK Google" and my android phone doesn't do anything. I don't think I got flooded with pet food adverts because my phone "heard" my friend and I talk about his newly adopted cat. I think it's easier than that to read our data. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 04:43, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Bing bing bong bong bing bang bong. Oxyaena Harass 07:02, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

So, they had a Q&A about this subject yesterday (which they would give answers to today) and I asked them the question why they didn't talk about this 3 years ago (adding the link to the article from The Indepentent that AMassiveGay posted), and they ignored it... Tinribmancer (talk) 14:45, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

Learn to bafflegab your 'hearing aid' and/or ask enough diverse questions to confuse it. Anna Livia (talk) 16:23, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
All this reminds me of this classic. CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 20:05, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

Why is it that many people treat Autism as if it was the second Black Death?[edit]

Obviously that mentality is from Pro-Plague people. Either way, they treat Autism like a virus. It is incorrect and unethical. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 01:41, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

Who do you know who treats autism in such a way? That's not my experience, and I am autistic. 2607:FB90:509A:2243:0:1A:F401:2A01 (talk) 12:35, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
Not really, it's more the logical derivation for someone who, say, think polio as something that is "better" than autism / Asperger's from my viewpoint. Even if the vaccine/autism connection was true, which it isn't, a disease like polio is far more devastating than mild autism / Asperger syndromes, so getting the vaccine would still be worthwhile. Autism was diagnosed as a disorder only in the 1940s (just when vaccination was starting to become production scale), and Aspergers only in the 1980s, so IMHO one of the faults of the anti-vax crowd is not recognizing the relative history and making bad connections due to the relative recent nature of autism diagnosis (as well as, in particular, the much newer tendency to diagnose non-debilitative variants like Aspergers, a trend only a couple decades old). From my reading of history, autism / Aspergers and relatively related syndromes (eg OCD) have been around for *much* longer than their diagnosis suggests. It is possible to do quite well even with the symptoms. (It is impossible to definitively tell, of course, but one can speculate which classical composers would be diagnosed with an "autistic" or at least the related OCD disorder today. Anton Bruckner? Erik Satie? Bohuslav Martinu? Maybe. Speculative, of course, because mental diagnosis like autism / Aspergers / OCD did not exist 100 years ago, the behavior would only be described as "odd" or "eccentric" back then, and you can't reliably diagnose by anecdote. Still... seems possible to me. You can run this speculative exercise in other heady fields like scientists as well.) Soundwave106 (talk) 13:08, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
Breeder class anxiety, basically. Most parents above a certain income level have figured out that downward mobility is a very real possibility for their children. They are willing to move mountains to avoid that fate for them. It's the same reason I am basically sympathetic with those parents who 'cheated' to get their children into prestigious schools. Where real life rewards are gated by silly games, you do what you gotta to win, and I have no problem with that. AAR I suspect the explosion of autism diagnoses is an example of the same kind of fear. And the many autism self-diagnoses have one of their mainsprings as a desire to explain failure to Mom and Dad. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱs. 14:17, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
It actually makes me wonder how many historical figures were on the spectrum, but no one ever knew because there wasn't any knowledge of autism. RoninMacbeth (talk) 14:31, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
I normally strongly dislike speculating about individual historical figures, but the one I'd make an exception for is Jeremy Bentham; he might as well have had it tattooed on his forehead. But I dislike the idea of normalizing autism in a lot of ways; if there ever was a cure I'd seek it in a heartbeat, I'm one of the relative success stories and I'd only wish my day to day existence on someone I truly despised. Most likely I'll live out like Eleanor Rigby, and it's extremely obvious that, whatever positive traits I have from The Big A (I wish I could take credit for that, certainly better than repeating ASD or PDD-NOS all the time) are more than outweighed by how hard it is to give/receive information in a normal way. If I hadn't avoided the nearly-ubiquitous monotone voice of The Big A I'd pretty much be totally fucked. Should society work with us, yes, but trying to present it as some "alternative way of thinking" is the mental version of "healthy at every size" bullshit. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 23:03, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
Also on the spectrum,.and I'd just like to point out that a lot of the negative aspects are amplified far beyond the impact that they might otherwise have specifically because it's the so-called "neurotypicals" who refuse to give and receive information as they ought to. In any event, autism is not the end of the world and if parents are panicking about it I have to wonder why absolutely every other form of intellectual disability and incurable birth defect known to man isn't treated with the same form of hysteria.--Logos (talk) 01:08, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Move along[edit]

Does non-attachment lead to an happy life?[edit]

https://www.elephantjournal.com/2015/09/why-non-attachment-is-one-of-the-keys-to-a-happy-life-relationship/

Because to me it seems that they are trying to justify nonattachment being healthy where in relationships it makes it seem like you are always on edge because you know it will end. It also to me makes it sound like the relationship is cheap, like why invest in it if you just know that it's going to end some day. I mean yeah we do get hurt when these things end, but that's normal. It's part of life and living is about learning to move on from those things. I know I've lost in the past and it hurt, but I wouldn't trade that for happier times or being non attached. It seems to me that non-attachment and disinterest go hand in hand. I mean....if you are setting goals and you don't care about the outcome then why are you setting goals to begin with?Machina (talk) 21:46, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

I decided to turn to a well respect sociology journal to approach your question. Namely the Journal of Happiness Studies. The net results of my review of relevant articles is "Probably not happiness per se, no".
All this starts to put together an image of lower attachment not leading specifically to increased happiness, but maybe a bit of a flatter emotional curve. Lower highs and higher lows. Someone consistently battling depression might see some value in that for living a happier life. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:06, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
I guess but the idea here is that it is supposedly THE way to go. I can say that having tried it before it's not what I would call living. I went through life mostly being unaffected by anything at all and it wasn't pleasant but not bad either. It's similar to being dead honestly.Machina (talk) 23:29, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Burden of Proof / Null Hypothesis[edit]

So I'm having a mock debate with a friend on the topic of mermaids (neither of us believe, just for practice). We're having some issues with the burden of proof. I made the claim that mermaids do not exist. Is the burden of proof on me (as he claims) to prove that they do not exist since I made the initial claim? Is it a Null Hypothesis that is free from the burden of proof? When I Google both "Burden of Proof" and "Null Hypothesis" it doesn't clarify much. The article for Burden of Proof on this site doesn't clarify as much as I would like either. I'd appreciate some input. Alec (talk) 22:03, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

You cannot prove mermaids don't exist. You can only show that it is unlikely that they exist. The concept of null hypothesis is irrelevant. One way to show there is no evidence for the existence of mermaids is to consult a species catalog. This suggests that no responsible scientist has ever verified the existence of mermaids. Unicorns might also exist. We just don't know of any.Ariel31459 (talk) 22:43, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
To be blunt, yes. You have made a positive claim (X does not exist) and must now either cite evidence or redact your claim. For example, if I claimed that God does not exist (and I do) I would point out how God has traditionally been where humans cannot go (mountains, skies, beyond the sky, beyond reality), which indicates to me at least that theists cannot help but move the goalposts to such a degree as to appear as if there is no god, and that they are just making up excuses. Or I could point out that an invisible, intangible, and indirect god is practically the exact same thing as no god. Likewise, you could point out that if we cannot find mermaids, and if we cannot find evidence that such creatures are even possible, then we must for all practical purposes take it that they do not exist, unless extremely extraordinary evidence proves otherwise. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 22:53, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
Not sure what'd be physically impossible about mermaids or unicorns. Give humanity enough time and we'll probably genetically engineer them. 2A02:1810:4D34:DC00:5D52:E700:16FC:2A2C (talk) 23:21, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
Also it's kinda disappointing Hoplitomeryx isn't a staple "awesome extinct mammal" in pop culture. 2A02:1810:4D34:DC00:5D52:E700:16FC:2A2C (talk) 23:43, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

Isn't the Null Hypothesis relevant in this case? With the stance that mermaids do not exist being the Null in this instance? "The person claiming something is possible or has happened needs to produce evidence to refute the null hypothesis." If he's advocating that mermaids DO exist he's just working against the Null Hypothesis which is the neutral starting stance that I'm advocating for. Alec (talk) 00:23, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

You made the wrong claim - had you claimed "I have seen no (credible, verifiable, sufficient, etc) evidence that mermaids exist" you could defend it. By saying that do not exist then you make a statement of fact - so what's your evidence to support that fact?Aloysius the Gaul 01:05, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
So in my case my evidence would be a lack of evidence for the pro-mermaid side. Alec (talk) 01:22, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
As per GrammarCommie (above), see Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Bongolian (talk) 07:48, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
Burden of proof shouldn't be used as a cudgel. This is a common novice skeptic mistake. There are classes of statement where it's a bit unreasonable to expect someone to casually and easily refute a complex and vague claim with absolute evidence. "There's a teapot floating in the asteroid belt in some non-specific location" being a kind canonical example. Teapots have remarkably hard to diffentiate character compared to asteroids, and the area to consider is huge, and the resources available to investigating the claim are few and expensive, and better suited to other tasks. And if there were any reason to believe it to be true, you'd probably have leads to make backing your claim much easier. Orders of magnitude easier.
But trying to generalize to say "Burden of proof is always on the person making a claim" is a bit too easy. We can provide decent evidence that bigfoot doesn't exist, because any charasmatic megafauna with a specific habitat and a population large enough to sustain itself without going extinct leaves numerous identifiable physical artifacts that we would find: bones, scat, kills(if predatory), territory markers, fur, teeth. At levels where we could basically guarantee finding them in a given acreage. The absence of evidence in such a case truly is evidence of absence.
So... be aware of the burden proof, but don't let it be your single guidepost on truth. Pose hypotheses. "If what you're saying is true, Y should also be true, and we can examine the facts of that, right?" is a powerful expression of the scientific method. For mermaids, that could be things like "What role are you proposing they fill in an ecosystem? Which ecosystem? What evidence would that leave behind?" ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:19, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
I would say it's about knowledge versus belief. I do not believe mermaids exist. I do not know that mermaids don't exist.
If I make the absolute claim that "I know x does not exist" then, yes, the burden of proof is on me to explain how I have come by this knowledge.
In addition, my belief is not an on/off thing. My level of belief is conditioned by the quality of the evidence.
I also agree that the null hypothesis would be "X does not exist" - but that's part of a reasoning methodology. It's not a statement of personal knowledge.Hubert (talk) 19:41, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Death threats over Unplanned[edit]

Rough storm pirate.png Ahoy, matey!
Beware, for there be a great sea of
Concern Troll Bullshit ahead!

So apparently Canadian theaters have been getting death threats over showing the film Unplanned. Two theaters caved. According to some people, including Geeks + Gamers, Breitbart, various subreddits, those death threats came from "SJWs" or "far left thugs".--DoomTay (talk) 01:20, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

"Apparently" and "according to some people" are not credible sources. Need to see some evidence, then we'll talk. CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 01:37, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
Here's probably one of the few articles on the matter that isn't from some nutcase site. Though what gets to me is that do we really have any idea who made these death threats?--DoomTay (talk) 03:47, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
Thanks. It appears the threats were real, but of course we can't have any way of knowing where they came from. CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 04:05, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
@CogitoNotStirred They received this information from credible, otherworldly sources. The SJWs have connections with the Dark Lord himself, and the Nazis are doing the work of God in purging the world of their Satanic menace. Oxyaena Harass 02:05, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
A not inaccurate description of the plot of the movie, that includes scenes of their straw liberals cackling with glee with literal bloody hands. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 02:13, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
@Oxyaena lol. I was just confirming this with Satan Himself on Goat (you know, Gab meets Voat, but for RWers). CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 02:48, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
Literally every single has-no-quality-except-being-right-wing movie pitches itself on "we're oppressed for our opinions". That's literally been the advertising campaign for every single one. Listing 3 sources whose whole job is to sell right wing bullshit and expecting anyone to care is a big ask, tay. Especially given the "side" you're asking us to fear for here, has literally committed multiple mass shootings in the last decade to push their position.
Another story earlier in the production cycle included this bit
All that aside, the anti-abortion community claims the movie has been censored, especially in Canada. At an Ottawa press conference in early May, producer Lisa Wheeler said, “We have been effectively blocked from distributing the film in Canada.” Cinema chains responded that this wasn’t the case, but either way it played into the movements’ hands, enabling them to complain of elitism, the basic right of freedom of expression, and the danger of censorship. Last week, however, it was announced that Unplanned will indeed be playing in at least 24 theatres across Canada.
They lied. Straight up lied about being censored. And now you want us to believe articles that cite literal hearsay? From far right propagandists? Really? ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 02:13, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
Are we still talking about this thing? It was boring. Like Austen Powers, but written by and for pro-life Fundies and not very amusing. The Bells of Innocence was better. Hell, there are multiple crappy fundy flicks that were and are better than Unplanned, and most if not all of them are crap. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 03:46, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
CTV news has a more sober take. I wouldn't be surprised if a few nutty angry lefties did some death threat thingy, but we are in the age (as in every time) where nutty death threaty thingies are the norm for every single hot button subject. It sounds like a "preach to the choir" type film, if I watched it (hah!) I'd probably be reaching for TVTropes to cross-reference what standard emotion-sleeve-tugs they are utilizing. Soundwave106 (talk) 13:17, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Qanon is personally frustrating[edit]

I have a friend that I really respect. He is smart, he is funny, always laughing and having a good time with anybody and everybody. He is a good guy and not some kind of right-wing nutjob. But he interprets a lot of his news through other friends he has who he believes really hammer down on the facts. The 5th, I asked if anybody saw the Trump airports gaffe, and he said, "yeah, but the thing about that, do you know what Britain called their catapult sites during the revolutionary war?" I stared at him silently. "Airports, so, that's BS." But is it likely that Trump knows about Revolutionary War tactics or just that he talks faster than his brain can keep up with? I looked it up later, and again, and again, and I still can't find any reference to catapults even being used in the Revolutionary War. There is a method for launching planes from aircraft carriers called catapulting. That's close.

There are plenty of previous examples from this guy of really bad information, like when he said that abortion after birth is now legal but he agreed with me that it's probably not a real thing that happens. Another backwards impossible justification happened today, after I was excited to see that Jared Fogle made prison friends that attempted to "Sovereign Citizen" their way out of prison two years ago. I was personally like "Why didn't anybody tell me this, this is fantastic!" but also like "Well, here I go geekin on some shit." I shared it, there was something about Fogle somehow selling out Epstein a year ago for a lighter sentence (which Fogle does not have), but I'm not here to put this guy on blast. Just, I do have to listen to "facts" interpreted in a way that cannot be corroborated by any source, but seem to be healthy in the Qanon memorandums. But how do you disprove something that doesn't exist? Am I wrong about this catapult-airport connection? I know we've got some Brits here, but it would probably take a Revolutionary War historian to clear this one up. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 01:51, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Catapults were obsolete before the revolutionary war. They were not used. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 01:55, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
I was just thinking while reading this how bizarre it would be for soldiers to be using catapults during the revolutionary war. Alec (talk) 02:39, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
It is truly amazing the incredibly stupid shit ideology will convince you to say. Since this is only a gaffe it won't be with us forever, unlike the almost entirely fictional historical definition of "well regulated" that has become central to the right wing vision of the 2nd amendment. Namely that it merely indicates the presence of ranks. Complete bullshit. Or the whole "eye of the needle" invention. One of them will make up a convenient total fabrication that explains away why they're wrong, and then that fabrication becomes the new party line. I wish I had a term for that phenomenon. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 02:45, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
It's a little like a slippery slope in reverse. Kinda like a snowball, except if it ever stops rolling for long enough to test the ice core, oh, whoops, that history must be inaccurate. Maybe closer to Sisyphus, where the top of the hill is where everything is right, and the bottom of any side of the hill would be easier to forget than think about while pushing that boulder. Crafting a clay mountain? Like, if everything from the bottom to the top can be piled on or chucked off, just as long as it's still a mountain we make ourselves that nobody can summit? I'd also call it a shit-pile, and I think as a phenomenon, anyone might be susceptible to it. Also, this include shifting goalposts. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 03:43, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
Hahaha, sorry, just thought about a dung beetle version of Sisyphus, couldn't keep that to myself. "This ball of shit is so good, just gotta get it to the top of this OH DAMMIT no problem. This ball of shit is so good." Gol Sarnitt (talk) 04:25, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

The Paradox of the "Open Secret" and Exploitation[edit]

I am not a conspiracy theorist. I trust Occam's Razor to usually pare down the best explanation for a phenomenon. However, I'm a little perplexed by the recent trend and focus concerning "Open Secrets." Not because I don't believe the accounts, but more that I can't reconcile the broad amounts of dismissal, denial, lying, and intentional silence these things would require for, shit, decades now from, shit, basically everybody in front of a camera, and a staggering number of people without even the threat of being in front of a camera. The Catholic Church, Bill Cosby, R. Kelly, Louis C.K., Jared Fogle, Michael Jackson, Jeffrey Epstein, Harvey Weinstein. I mean, does it really take a Roosh V to make people start openly stating that "Holy shit, this whole (power + coercion = no accountability) equation sometimes works and that is gross?" I just don't get why it took so long, and this is not a dig at the victims, this is a dig at the people in the periphery who said/did nothing, and the people who encouraged the victims and periphery to say/do nothing.

How can a secret be so open that everyone knows it, but so important as a secret that it's not worth outing? Way to go society, we really did it. We really created a socially constructed paradox. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 03:13, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

I'd put Jared Fogle under the "ordinary kid-diddler who happened to have a slightly noteworthy role", but for the rest, I reference the factoid that Donald Trump was elected president, and 70% of the so called "Moral Majority" approve of him even now. Yay human tribes. Soundwave106 (talk) 13:26, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
Putting Fogle under the "ordinary kid-diddler who happened to have a slightly noteworthy role" point doesn't describe his ability to find and abuse kids. I'm sorry, but I just don't dismiss it as such. An ordinary kid-diddler? I think you might have been careless here, and I'd like to give you a chance to remember your childhood before you follow up. This isn't like stealing. Sure we've all stolen, but Jared Fogle got caught up in having sex with children for a couple years. How is he an exclusion to this list? It's not a complete list, if you'd like to add to it, feel free, but why would you exclude Fogle from a list of known abusers just because he sought out sex with minors like an "ordinary kid-diddler?" Like an ordinary kid-diddler, are you serious? Yes, he did act like an ordinary kid-diddler, I am not arguing against that. But people knew he had sex on kids.
I am very upset with you right now. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 01:42, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

RIP SealionThinker[edit]

So a few days ago, I tried to vote for UT (if CTers are allowed, why not a sealion tamer?). Turned out he got banned on the 4th. Why was he banned?

Also, what will happen with his sealions? Are they going to a zoo? Tinribmancer (talk) 08:53, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

A zoo was proposed but the mob decided that banning him was better, see this and this. NekoDysk 09:00, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
I wonder if he still lurks here, sneering to himself. Oxyaena Harass 09:17, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
He could still make a sock, no? Tinribmancer (talk) 13:06, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
Since he got "banned" he isn't allowed to come back with a sock, unless he convinces the mob to unban him first. NekoDysk 13:22, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
So there's no way for him to do a mikemikev, then? Tinribmancer (talk) 13:35, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
Well Mikemikev is also banned he just loves to come back and complain that we aren't racist enough. It's not allowed he just doesn't care. NekoDysk 14:27, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── hes gone and you are still talking about him. stop it. AMassiveGay (talk) 14:21, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Dude was our biggest shitposter for ages, some clarification ought to perhaps have been posted at the time for people not following COOP procedure, but I guess this works too. NekoDysk 14:27, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
UT, we knew ye a bit too well. RoninMacbeth (talk) 15:28, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
There were like 2 or 3 times where I was like "maybe they'll stop being a dumbshit, this post reflects some degree of critical thought" then the next post came. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:48, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
One less mother fucker to bring up PRATT's, good riddance.RipCityLiberal (talk) 16:05, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
I think we should have kept him, if only for entertainment..108.208.14.123 (talk) 20:51, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Bible[edit]

If everybody followed the Bible, would the world not be a better place to live in? — Unsigned, by: 2600:1:F165:7DE3:6163:B73C:6456:3 / talk

No. Tinribmancer (talk) 16:01, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
I think humanity tried that once, the results were less than ideal. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 16:04, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
Good luck finding enough ginger cows to make up for a fraction of the sins out there. CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 16:12, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
What are you talking about? — Unsigned, by: 2600:1:F165:7DE3:6163:B73C:6456:3 / talk
Typical: Christians never seem to know their own Bible. CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 17:00, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
Checked. See what you mean. Well, is not sacrificing ended since the New Testament? — Unsigned, by: 2600:1:F165:7DE3:6163:B73C:6456:3 / talk
On talk pages, please sign your comments using four tildes (~~~~) or by clicking on the sign button: SigButt.png on the toolbar above the edit panel. You can also indent successive talk page comments using one more colon (:) for each line. Thank you. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 17:14, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
I don't know. Did Jesus say sacrifices are no longer allowed? RoninMacbeth (talk) 02:33, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
I'm also firmly in the no category. One is reason for that opinion many people throughout history who purport to follow the bible are awful, terrible people, committing murder, genocide, rape, and a variety of other atrocious crimes for various reasons, suggesting that, at best, conceptually following the bible is not substantively protective against the kinds of thing that you'd want to minimize for the world to be a better place.
But also because some of the written moral precepts of the bible themselves are not at all good for making a better world. Punishing rape victims for being raped, executing blasphemers, exiling men who aren't circumsized, prohibiting crop rotation, being obedient slaves. These are strictures that are not only lacking in benefit to society, but hurt people and make the world a worse place.
No, you'd be far better coming up with a vision for universal morality based on some kind of human empathy, than an old book. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 17:19, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

I think the world will be in a better moral place (especially for women, people of color, and LGBTQ people) if the Bible was used as toilet paper or a door stopper. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 17:29, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Cosign this, possibly include all other religious texts also.RipCityLiberal (talk) 18:05, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

No. If we only went by the ten commandments we would live in a theocratic nightmare. If we followed the other OT stuff as well then it would be hell on earth.Hubert (talk) 19:30, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Once upon a time, all Europe followed the bible, for hundreds of years. It was a period riddled with wars, plagues, poverty and absolute dictatorships. So the answer is no. Avida Dollarsher again 21:16, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
That's a bit of an oversimplification of the Middle Ages. But yes, in general, the world (or at least, the West) was better off after the Enlightenment. RoninMacbeth (talk) 02:33, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
Following a non-fiction document is tough in its own right. Let's not get so righteous about an anthology. Pick a single book out of the Bible first, get back to me. I don't get why the Bible is used as a singular piece of infallible philosophical/theological literature. Clearly Christians don't either or there wouldn't be hundreds of different sects. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:53, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
Any given region of Europe was at war in the 10th century way less than the US has been in the 20th and 21st. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 06:45, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Lack of proper nutrition of Noah's Ark[edit]

Last night when I added a section to Noah's Ark relating to Zoonotic diseases, it made me think of the lack of nutrition. What food did Noah and his crew eat? I highly doubt their diet involved protein. They would be getting sick quick. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 15:59, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Obviously because there was only two of every animal (or maybe 7 of the unclean animals), they definitely didn't eat any of the animals. Definitely. I think it's clear that at this point God decided that he would change the internal organs of all the participants to be able to process microscopic species in the waters, similar to whales. Duh. RipCityLiberal (talk) 16:08, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
If they started out with 2 of every animal, they could have been eating a lot of bugs. I'm a little more worried about scurvy since they didn't bring fruit. CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 16:39, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
"The things which are impossible with men are possible with God" LUKE — Unsigned, by: 2600:1:F165:7DE3:6163:B73C:6456:3 / talk
"Goddidit is a lazy excuse devoid of any original thinking or reason, one which can be dismissed offhand without any preamble."- Me. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 16:51, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
This is especially true if the source material does not bear out the claims. If I claimed that space aliens and cyborg dinosaurs helped Harry Potter defeat Voldemort, that would be untrue, and it would be blatantly untrue if it could not be verified by the story in question. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 16:56, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
Why didn't Got just Thanos snap sinful people. Why even get rid of them, why not just "fix" them? Why does he need to go through all this process and needlessly kill everyone? --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 17:22, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
God installed indoor greenhouses. Oxyaena Harass 16:58, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
And miracled Somer legumes in there. Anyway, eating some of even the clean animals wouldn't have been an option, since everyone and everything (even the animals with carnivores teeth) were supposedly vegetarians until the flood ended. Coigreach (talk) 18:27, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
Why didn't Noah pass on down knowledge of all these advanced engineering techniques, leaving us to rediscover them? Stingy old bastard. Oxyaena Harass 20:31, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
Well what would you expect from a guy who would curse his own son and all his descendants, just because Noah got shitfaced, disgraced himself and Ham happened to witness it. I'm getting a distinct feeling that Noah was bit of a cunt. Coigreach (talk) 08:18, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

I believe their diet consisted exclusively of unicorns. Though if we really want to be generous, I guess they could have eaten fish. Assuming, of course, that both the freshwater and saltwater fish weren't poisoned by the extreme salinity change.Hubert (talk) 19:25, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

noah also lived to be 950 years old. i'm not sure of the point in picking holes in a fairy story. AMassiveGay (talk) 20:18, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Presumably with enough holes the boat will sink. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 20:45, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

They ate the dinosaurs, of course! Avida Dollarsher again 21:11, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Chronology is hard[edit]

When the Atheists and anti-theists side with the Theists...[edit]

Because the Christians have a point. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 23:11, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

It sounds like the school admins are trying to "work by rule", without really understanding the rules... Pyro (talk) 23:33, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
Indeed. I hope the IVCF wins. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 23:42, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Why we should abandon Democracy to save the planet.[edit]

Many may not like what I am about to say, but oI believe it is a hard pill to swallow.

In dire times, we must take extreme measures. Climate Change is a threat to our civilization. But there are groups and forces determined to stop any action against this trend. Many are unfortunately in the seats of our corrupt civilian government.

Liberal Democracy has failed to lead any action to stop this trend as it has enabled groups such as the Koch Brothers to halt any type of action.

Thus I advocate more radical measures. The current establishment is broken and thus a new one is in order.

This order is neither capitalist or socialist, I reject the dichotomy of capitalism or socialism and instead advocate a new system.

In order to effectively combat climate change we need a total commitment from society and the state. Both must cooperate and be organically intwined as it were a body. The Earth is like a body and thus civilization should be too. We must ensure the body’s health.

Spacehillbilly (talk) 03:17, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

No. Yours is not the first a third way, nor the last. Neither is it the first to suggest enslaving us all in order to free us. If humanity and other life on the planet perishes because I wish live up to my ideals, so be it. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 03:29, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
You sound like a republican or libertarian. Koch Brothers think tanks like the CATO institute and Fox News want you to think in terms of “freedom”. When the Civil War began, Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus. A necessary sacrifice for a great cause. Spacehillbilly (talk) 03:43, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
Deflection, ad hominem, poisoning the well, yawn. What Lincoln did was wrong, plain and simple. Further, do not mistake me for some whimpering centrist merely because I reject your path. You are not the first to offer gilded shackles, nor the last. I merely recognize them as such, and the impracticality of enslaving an entire planet in order to save it. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 03:51, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
Isn't proposing a cooperation between society and state a socialist ideal? --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 03:59, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
The Socialism I was referring to is of the strand of leftists thought that argues that the stand must wither away and die. This is a fallacy, the state is necessary for the benefit of the people. The lack of the state power in the US is why we such corporate power and influence. Unfortunately most of the leftists I talk to don’t see eye to eye with my ideas.Spacehillbilly (talk) 04:05, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
Breaking: Soros and Koch join the anti-globalist anti-neocon Trump reform movement. nobsI'm all yea'res 05:43, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
Eh, nobs, you do realise that the article you link to simply states that the Kochs and Soros agree on appealing to Washington to end the seemingly interminable wars, right? That’s actually something you’d find quite a lot of “globalists” (if by that, you mean something like what’s known as liberal internationalists in the terminology of international relations scholarship) and even neocons agreeing with (though they’d likely disagree over what constitutes necessary grounds for armed intervention).
If anything, this piece of news mainly illustrates the power of political inertia (US involvement continuing due to a lack of consensus on what new/other direction to take). It certain says nothing about the Kochs and Soros teaming up with Trump or supporting his erratic and confusing foreign policy (such as it is...) of personal photo op diplomatic events with Kim Jung Un, sabre rattling against Iran, pissing on European allies, praise of Putin and love of trade wars. ScepticWombat (talk) 08:58, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
@Spacehillbilly So... when you say "Socialism" what you really mean is "Anarchism"... Is that what you're saying? Because that's a big mixup to make. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 12:20, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
While what Spacehillbilly suggests is bound to fail bigly, saying outright that "I'll stand by my ideals even if it means the death of humanity" makes a good case for others to reject those ideals. That's kinda the downside of rejecting the Platonist realism of ideals as found in many religions. The only ideals that still matter are ones that can be realized in the material world. 2A02:1810:4D34:DC00:75E3:7FF5:9FAB:F5ED (talk) 16:43, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
You assume my ideals are unrealistic, first mistake. My ideals tend to revolve around acknowledging the more negative aspects of existence and trying to minimize them, while also acknowledging that if such an approach fails the consequences could be quiet severe. Hence my rejection of ideas based on how someone thing ought to be, rather than how things actually are. If you try to force someone to do something, no matter how benign your intent, they will rebel. People by and large like to think of themselves as in control, even if that control is merely an illusion. So, with all of that in mind I reject the original proposal as unrealistic and hysterical and if its proposed consequences occur, I accept them as potentially inevitable. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 16:54, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
Well, I don't know what your ideals are. Was just commenting on "If humanity and other life on the planet perishes because I wish [to] live up to my ideals, so be it." 2A02:1810:4D34:DC00:75E3:7FF5:9FAB:F5ED (talk) 17:12, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be better, rather than quoting me and declaring me unreasonable, to just ask me why I made such a statement? ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 17:17, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
Where did I call you unreasonable? I'm just saying your statement is unpersuasive within a particular context. 2A02:1810:4D34:DC00:75E3:7FF5:9FAB:F5ED (talk) 17:21, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
I see, my apologies then. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 17:25, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
The strange thing about all of this is that it's not cosmologically important, nor is it ecologically important. It's the little niche we want to carve that's important. I would agree that the survival of humanity is paramount, because there are too many works that humanity has already performed that I find precious and would want to preserve for later generations of humans. But democracy is also one of those works. As Jim Bouton said, if the bases were loaded and it came down to needing a single strikeout to win: "I would throw a knuckleball. I would throw a knuckleball because my feeling is I would rather live and die with my best pitch than take a chance with something that wasn't my best." Democracy may be easy to game when it's done poorly, but it's impossible to game when it's done right. Perfecting democracy is the way to save the planet, in my opinion. Switching to some other system, rather than working on democracy, is silly. As far as America is concerned, there are plenty of ways to improve our democracy. The "first-past-the-post" method, for example, might not be our most representative method, versus the "Ranked Choice" method.
I am also very frustrated with the way we are prioritizing the future. But I am also very distrustful of anyone who makes their way to the top of politics, and the amount of effort it takes to play the game if you aren't towing the lines is intentionally financially and mentally exhausting. I mean, confidently name all the congresspersons you can off the top of your head. There are 535 of them, so any number less than 5 is smaller than 1%. I don't think cutting this number down is the exact solution. But I agree, we're doing something wrong. I'd say it's closer to not caring who gets into government and what they do from there, which isn't solved by rolling back democracy or appointing one person or group into power and washing one's hands of everything that happens after that. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 09:29, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
Before this is encouraging, I assure you, I meant to say it's not. It's meant to be the bleakest of points. We can't just vote people into office if we want things done. The civil rights movement was correct, facts over feelings, but it hasn't been implemented. What makes anybody so sure that voting a dickhead into office makes a difference? Voting is important, and those dickheads are our elected voice, but you can't just vote and quit, no matter who gets elected. Democracy requires every person to weigh in on the power conversation, best they can. Electing a squad of champions is very cool. As much as I love the squad and what they represent, they are doomed if democracy doesn't support them, because the highest congressional figures in the land want to kick the ladder out from under them and burn the traces and remind them that democracy done the congressional way means you don't ask for things the same year you've been elected. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:16, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

House of the Rising Sun[edit]

@Gol Sarnitt might like this, I do. Oxyaena Harass 06:53, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
Of course I like The Animals. I had a friend who made me listen to Eric Burdon every day for like a year. I was about to post this, under the title "You and I, Then I Alone." Serendipity that we can condense it. Also, all the tones match Burdon's, if you wanted to know why I'm geekin.

Thao & The Get Down Stay Down "Kindness Be Conceived" Live at KDHX 8/19/1

I tear up like it's a Pixar movie at 1:10 every time. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 07:02, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wF7sAjVcFJM if you want, this also follows a Burdon pace, Wye Oak for prayer, just linkin don't want to crowd the space Gol Sarnitt (talk)
On the off chance neither of you knew the original traditional song on which The Animals' hit was based... CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 01:29, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
I spent a little time on Leadbelly, but songs didn't stick with me like they do now. I knew that Leadbelly wrote it, somewhere back in that old filing cabinet part of my brain, but I was cross referencing so many songs in my head to the Animals and Burdon that somehow it didn't cross my mind. And I have to say, after running through some of them, I appreciate the Leadbelly tracks a lot more than I did back when I was first exploring them. Which, of course, I did because of Nirvana's MTV Unplugged session, keen crossover on that one. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 00:31, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
I love nirvanas cover of where did you sleep last night AMassiveGay (talk) 00:38, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
It's a great version. CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 05:16, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Of gods and terms[edit]

Is there a term for someone who believes the mythology of a religion to be true, but rejects its teachings on moral grounds? For example, if someone believed in Heaven, Hell, God, and Satan, etc but rejected traditional doctrine and mythologies as immoral. Or to put it another way, someone who believes scripture is literally true but rejects it anyway. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 14:21, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Misotheist. Oxyaena Harass 14:29, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
Or heretic. Kencolt (talk) 15:30, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Right-wing sceptics that have changed?[edit]

At 9:50, is he right? I mean, didn't we end up having an edit war with her fanboys last summer?

And yes, it's a 2 year (almost) old video, that's why I'm asking this. Tinribmancer (talk) 17:46, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you asking if several of the YouTubers we have articles on are opportunistic dipshits? ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 17:57, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
That, and what Jake said about Shoe0nHead. She seemed pretty pissed about her page last summer, so I'm not quite sure whether what he says about her is true (both of them are, I think, good friends with her, so). Tinribmancer (talk) 18:11, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
Should we care? Oxyaena Harass 18:24, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
I would suspect, given that the original version of the article contained inaccuracies, that it was a combination of those inaccuracies and her having to face some of the ugly shit she's supported. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 18:25, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
Ok, so this is like how I feel about Joe Rogan. I watched these guys for a while, and really liked it. When they are slammin Chick Tracts, or bad Christian movies, they are great. When they are dissecting Bible verses or Jordan Peterson's book, they are great, I'm on board. When Joe Rogan is talking about MMA or smoking pot, he's the fucking authority. Otherwise, I consider him an idiot. I, unfortunately, do not like when Hugo and Jake just sit and talk about things. A little hypocritical, because I will absolutely do that, but I mean, why are you dedicating time towards listening to/watching these guys talk about shit they don't research or craft? There are people who love these two so much that they literally spend money on them to encourage them create content, and this is part of it. I mean, I get it, but I don't get it. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 10:44, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
Chick Tracks and them taking the piss of bad Christian movies/shows. Just for entertainment in my case. Haven't really checked out their other stuff. Not ok with the fact that only Patreon members can join their Discord/get early shoutouts to some video's/video's only for patreons (apparently they have that). Then again, name 1 youtuber with a decent amount of subscribers who isn't in it for the money?
I also hate the jumpscares they have in some video's around halloween (I hate jumpscares in general to begin with)... Tinribmancer (talk) 22:33, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Chemtrails[edit]

A chemtrails believer presented me with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wynpGOWb80&list=PL193118EE36034ED8

Any thoughts? How does one know for sure where this barium came from? ཨོཾ་མ་ཎི་པདྨེ་ཧཱུྃ (talk) 22:05, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

It's very simple. When dealing with Chemtrail truthers, simply remember one thing. They don't understand how physics and engineering works. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 22:11, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
"Could a strange substance found by a southwest Arkansas man be part of a government test?"
"They begin as 'normal' contrails, but do not fade away like a 'normal' contrail."
Reporters have no idea how contrails work, which follows the basic rules of cloud formation. It's completely normal for some contrails to remain in the sky for a very long time, due to certain levels of humidity and temperature in the sky (which can indicate an approaching frontal system).
And then guy apparently finds particles in the air and sees them drop to the ground in a haze, which he assumes has to do with the contrails (one event preceding another doesn't mean causation). Guy collects water in bowls, scientists discover high levels of barium but also other chemicals all which are already known pollutants in water (except silver?). The department the reporters asked said that the water is highly contaminated but aren't sure about the source (that isn't evidence for chemtrails; they probably just couldn't determine barium from typical natural erosion or waste runoff from a nearby factory). And then they point to stories where people are contaminated with biological agents between 1949 and 1969 and the Rockfeller Report showed secret biological tests. Again, these are unrelated events especially given the sheer implausibility and impracticality of dispersing shit thousand of miles overhead for some unspecified reason. Also, "chemtrails" are mentioned in a document HR 2977 but was written by UFO enthusiasts from a site called "exopolitics" who gave chemtrails only a passing mention. So, this is mostly bunk. Like usual. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 22:38, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
Do you think they could ever use chemtrails to sterilize all the rich people? Worth considering imo. Oxyaena Harass 05:01, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
Might hurt nonrich people in the process. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 16:31, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
This is from 2007 - I'm afraid you've been PRATT-ed.... eg see http://contrailscience.com/barium-chemtrails/ Aloysius the Gaul 22:37, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

There was something in the newspapers the other day about the contribution of the water emitted by planes to global warming/absorbing sunshine. Anna Livia (talk) 11:02, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Something that would be a funny addition to RW[edit]

Have an automated voice say, "Welcome to RationalWiki". Have the voice in the style of an annoyed Wal-Mart greeter when people log on. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 01:53, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Funny like "haha" or funny like "Active userbase of zero"? ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 02:13, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
Either or. Does not matter. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 02:34, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
Fuck that. Oxyaena Harass 03:34, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
I honestly think that has to be your worst ever idea, Rationalzombie. It's bad enough news sites use autoplaying videos to annoy the user, now you want to use something similar? 6 days in the sin bin for you. Cardinal Chang (talk) 16:26, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
Sin bin? I got something similar.
Mario of disappointment.jpg
--It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 16:31, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
Awh, just look at the sad look on the fictional character's face. Doesn't it just move your fictional self to fictional tears. Someone get Luigi, In bocca al lupo Cardinal Chang (talk) 14:56, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Should Spud's next translation be into French or Spanish?[edit]

I plan to translate the Halloween page into both French and Spanish by the start of October. The question is, which translation should I start first? My second RW Spanish translation (after Papá Noel) or my first RW French translation? Please help me decide. Thank you. Spud (talk) 11:07, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

I just flipped a coin, head I suggest French, Tails I suggest Spanish. It landed heads up. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 12:49, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
Suggestion - do Andorra both ways. Anna Livia (talk) 12:59, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
Pig latin. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 14:49, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
Don't they speak Català in Andorra? CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 15:06, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
Go ask Boris. Anna Livia (talk) 16:26, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
@Anna Livia Ha ha, thanks, hadn't heard of him before. CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 18:18, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
He should consider translating the page into Irish Gaelic108.208.14.123 (talk) 20:50, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
Which page? Anna Livia (talk) 22:25, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
Pay attention, Anna. The BoN means the Halloween page, of course. If I could speak Irish, that would be a good suggestion. I'd like to know why @Féinléiriú hasn't moved any of his Irish translations to mainspace yet. They look finished to me.
So to make it clear, the next translation I'm going to start is of the Halloween page. Not the page on Andorra or anything else. Anyway, we haven't got a page on Andorra anymore. It was deleted on 1 October 2017. By me. But, by the way, I can speak Catalan too.
Anyway, so far it's one vote for French. Unless there's some change over the next few days, it looks like I'll start the draft of my first RW French translation on Saturday. Spud (talk) 05:50, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
As I mentioned Andorra and Boris S 'just clarifying.' Anna Livia (talk) 16:18, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
Are you a hyperpolyglot, Spud? That's pretty rare. I'm only good at a few languages and so-so at a few others. CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 04:36, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
With the help of Google Translate Duolingo, anyone can be a hyperomnipanmonoduotripolyglot: GUARANTEED!!! Oxyaena Harass 04:37, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
@CogitoNotStirred I guess I'm just a regular polyglot. I can speak five languages, English, French, Spanish, Esperanto and Catalan. And because of having studied those four additional languages, I can read a few other Romance languages that I never studied (like Ladino, Papiamento and Asturian) without much difficulty. I can also read a few other conlangs (like Ido, Interlingua and Lingua Franca Nova) without much difficulty. Then there are a few other Romance languages (like Walloon and Haitian Creole) that I can just about get the gist of in written form if I really try. And I'd never know I could read those languages if it weren't for the internet (specifically Wikipedia in its multilanguage forms). So, yeah, the internet can be a great tool in language learning. And Google Translate is a lot better than it used to be. Spud (talk) 09:19, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Petra[edit]

Any guesses as to when 7k will be reached (and is deleting 'dud' pages between now and then cheating?). Anna Livia (talk) 16:26, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Deleting pages or moving them out of mainspace slows it down of course. NekoDysk 19:36, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
More to pass and repass 7k several times/maximise the percentage of 'proper articles.' Anna Livia (talk) 22:26, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

45 is a racist[edit]

45 went from a dog whistle, to a megaphone, to an Amber Alert to tell us how much he hates POC's and immigrants. But still, most people say nothing.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 18:21, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

I'm dubious that most people say nothing. The fact that he's racist is a primary motivator for many of his voters. This wasn't undiscussed prior to him getting in office. It was flatly denied because the right are intellectual cowards to a man, but it's not some unknown newfound revelation. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 18:28, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
I dont get what is meant by Amber Alert. Can you elaborate? Did Trump send a racist Amber Alert to people's phones that I missed or something? MirrorIrorriM (talk) 18:55, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
It's an extension of the metaphor(that doesn't quite work tbh), from "only understood as racist to racists(and people familiar with racist positions)" to "obviously racist" to "undeniably racist" as levels of filter dropped. As a comparison, only dogs can hear dog whistles, anyone can hear a megaphone, everyone hears an amber alert(because it's pushed to your phone). I'm dubious because "they're sending us their rapists and drug dealers" was a pretty obviously false and very racist comment in 2015. The birther thing in 2012 was pretty obvious too. He's never been good at hiding it.
There's not much blood to get gotten from the "convincing right wingers of an undeniable truth" stone. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 19:09, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
The biggest accomplishment Trump did with that undeniably racist tweet is unite the left, just at the moment the more moderate factions in the House were squabbling with progressives in the House. So there is that. Not that this matters to the Breitbart racists, but considering Donald Trump's heritage (Donald Trump's paternal grandfather and mother were German immigrants, and Donald Trump's mother was a Scottish immigrant) it's noteworthy that two of the Congresswomen addressed in the Tweet attack actually have more solid US family roots then Donald Trump. (As far as I can tell, Ayanna Pressley's parents and AOC's father are native born, and AOC's mother was born in the US territory Puerto Rico.) Soundwave106 (talk) 21:50, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
All that stuff was undeniably racist to most people, however he always had a habit of giving himself wiggle room; i.e. He never said Obama wasn't a citizen (he insinuated it), he also use the qualifier "Some I'm sure are good people", and denied saying "shithole" instead "shithouse" (which isn't really better). The fundamental difference I see now is that the wiggle room for any logic is gone, because he says that these women hate America and should leave, not to mention he doesn't care if White Supremacists agree with him because "a lot of people agree". For POC, and anyone with a shred of critical analysis knew he's been a racist, now he doesn't have any off ramp to hide behind. -RipCityLiberal (talk) 21:55, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

yeh its racist but it is just another tweet. I cant get worked up over something that just further confirms what I already believed and everyday has yet another tweet thats bullshit for one thing or another, everyday another garbled statement or easily refuted lie. it drowns everything else out with arguments over 'what he ACTUALLY meant' and then its contradicted in another tweet or 'he never said that, fake news'. outrage and condemnation of his tweets wont change peoples minds about him - if you didn't think he was racist before you probably wont now. the extra focus just helps normalise the views. the arguments will be forgotten when the next tweet comes, but the sentiment of the tweet will linger with the waters further muddied, views further entrenched. all the outrage and energy should be directed at policy. whats he actually doing, not his verbal diarrheaAMassiveGay (talk) 08:12, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

don't take the bait AMassiveGay (talk) 08:17, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
One affects the other. For instance, refugee crisis are never easy to handle, but Donald Trump's handling of the current Central America / Venezuela refugee crisis makes other political responses to refugee crisis (say, Jimmy Carter's kind-of-shaky handling of the Cuban refugee crisis... or Angela Merkel's response to refugee issues in Germany, which I think were right-headed but caused much political tension) look like shining beacons of awesomeness in comparison. Racism is a key ingredient IMHO for the poor handling -- the deplorable conditions you hear about in the refugee camps, the cruel policies (eg the family separations), and the lack of effort being put forth by the administration to correct this. It's much easier to dismiss this sort of thing if you think these people are "others". (In fact, much of the said administration effort is concentrated on anti-immigration saber rattling... which will probably make this crisis worse.) I do agree that the focus should not be on just one tweet, of course, this is a moral stain on the entire GOP (home of the "moral majority", hah!) that will probably haunt them for decades to come. Soundwave106 (talk) 15:42, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
I kinda mean the endless arguments over the semantics of a two line statement. at no point will anyone say 'oh I see, that's why it racist'. they already know their arguments are unconvincing. because they are racist or its their team, they don't care. if its built up to be too big a deal over more concrete policy issues, they can just cave and play it off as compromise that effects nothing. then its 'see republicans are reasonable people' and 'why dems cant be reasonable too?' on any important issues.
I dunno. twitters nothing but bullshit and distraction and im on a massive comedown. AMassiveGay (talk) 17:35, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
Trump is recycling the old "America: Love It Or Leave It" trope that Nixon embraced and was popular among the reactionary right in the 60s. Trump's "law and order" stance is also copied from Nixon. For some reason tough posturing against nonconformists and non whites resonates with the conservative crowd. Millennium Scallion (talk) 19:23, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
The Nixon comparison is obviously clear in more ways than one. But the outright white nationalism combined with the executive overreach is particularly dangerous, more similar to Andrew Jackson.--RipCityLiberal (talk) 21:23, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

RW youtube channel[edit]

Does RW have it's own YT channel? If not, any plans on making one? Tinribmancer (talk) 19:31, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

The flaw in this question is that youtube channels, unlike text media, are very hard to make collaborative. You might say "well a twitter account is also..." and I'll cut you off and say that posting our articles and retweeting relevant posts is not the same as creating new videos.
Also, I'd be scared of devolving into the toxic mess of idiots talking to cameras that defines most of "skeptic" youtube. I see you there, person reading this, toxic idiot, yes, I'm afraid of videos by you having RW branding. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 19:34, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
RW doesn't need her own Youtube channel. Seems like a waste of time. Oxyaena Harass 19:38, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
@Ikanreed Actually, the only real problem with sharing a YT channel would be production rights, i.e., who owns the channel on paper. In practice video chats make sharing a video discussion easier, though content and quality would likely vary. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 19:54, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
Soft disagree. Producing videos that are useless might be easy, but good videos take sustained, organized, planned effort with a singular purpose that aren't a good fit with wiki culture. Contributor-based creation might be possible, but someone would have actually step up and create. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 20:01, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Styx talked about us.[edit]

I would like your rational take on his arguments against you in his recent live stream.

To get the full context start at 2:36, but if you want to skip the fluff and get to where he mentions rationalwiki by name start at 3:52.

What do you consider of this? I find it incredibly dishonest that your website used a tweet, deliberately made with a fellow video in mind. Also the fact that you call him a white nationalist for debating, against might I add, a white nationalist is absurd. this is pure guilt by association, a logical fallacy I would think the "rational" wiki would be above.
Ironically despite being opposed to the human shithead that is Richard Spencer, he is a white nationalist. Styx was being sarcastic when he said he would side with the far right. It was a reaction to the Far left jumping down his throat, but then some members of this wiki turn around and use it as evidence that he was part of the far right all along. I think that is what we call Confirmation Bias. It's not platforming to debate someone, period. Also some advice, don't take people out of context.108.208.14.123 (talk) 20:42, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
B-but I thought this was supposed to be RationalWiki? Also, I haven't had one yet. Tinribmancer (talk) 21:01, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
So... He's not a Nazi shithead, he was only pretending to be a Nazi shithead (without any clarification until after he was called out on it) I think this blog post Illustrates the problem quite clearly. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 21:08, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
  1. I'm not watching a white nationalist video. I'll read text on their positions, but youtube videos are a shitty-ass way to deliver arguments. The particulars of "idiot talks directly to camera" are especially bad for supporting misinformation. There's no chain of custody for citations(the lefttube types work pretty hard on that problem but it's still shitty compared to text).
  2. Debating against someone on some technicalities doesn't mean you disagree with them broadly. I could have a profoundly deep debate on important subjects that show intractable differences with someone who loosely fits the same political bucket as me. I do a lot, in fact.
  3. Consistently making videos promoting far-right garbage and then saying "I'm not far right, I just hate the left sooooo much" is a go to 'undercover' neonazi lie these days. We already know the sham.
  4. You don't do videos about how the holocaust is "overstated" unless you're full-on nazi piece of garbage, and you should abandon your stupid argument today, BoN, and start hating this fucker. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 21:14, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
@Ikanreed How much you want bet that the BoN comes back with some excuse and completely ignores your advice? ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 21:25, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
2nd most likely case after fucking off from a drive by troll. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 21:28, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
Dat BoN edit history. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 21:31, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
He seems to be a PewdiePie fanboy. Tinribmancer (talk) 21:43, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
A little unfair. They're a loser wasting their life worrying over the treatment of youtube stars. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 21:45, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
It must be sad being that insecure about one's idols... ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 21:49, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
TDM2 is so pathetic it's sad at this point lol. Oxyaena Harass 05:54, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
Wait, that BoN is TheDarkMaster2? When did he get banned? Tinribmancer (talk) 09:07, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
He was banned by my hand months ago, keep up, will ya? Oxyaena Harass 09:20, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

The IS comment[edit]

http://www.dailybuddhism.com/archives/903

"It amazes me how often I’ve seen the word “is” throughtout this site. Nothing “is”. Things resemble, apeear, or have some qualities of other things, but no thing “IS” another thing. Most grown adults know what “is” means, so most grown adults lie incessantly everyday. “The sky IS blue. The air IS cold. That man IS ugly.” Lies.

Not mistakes, not semantic differences, but mere lies."

I know I posted this before but I don't get why this is wrong. I think the bit about lies is a tad much, but is it wrong to say that something is cold even if some people have different measures of cold. Like when I say it is cold outside it usually refers to a temperature range, which in Florida is usually below 60ish.Machina (talk) 04:07, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Deepity CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 04:28, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
the are different levels of precision depending on whats being said and where. if I say its a bit chilly today down the pub, im not commenting on the precise temperature in calvins or saying its an indisputable fact true to all people everywhere, I am saying I might need to put on a jumper. If I say it is cold today in a paper on meteorogical trends, with studies and graphs and time lines and scientific research, it will have a more definite meaning in reference to something specific. we know the difference between the two. we know when take one statement more seriously than others. context tells us if we are too vague and need to clarify or be more specific.
its insane to expect a ridiculously high level of precision in all things. you'd need a war and peace length book of clauses and subclauses just to say hello.
its also insane to worry over comments that appears to take such an incredibly vague statement that its meaningless with no context, linked with such a strongly stated definite conclusion that i'd imagine the poster is insufferable in real life. AMassiveGay (talk) 07:19, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
I hearby endorse @CogitoNotStirred's one word response to Machina posts. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 14:37, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
That's being close minded then, just dismissing something because it "Sounds" dumb.— Unsigned, by: Machina / talk
I have a homeopathic kraken to sell you for $1000. I freely admit it doesn't exist, but neither does your money, apparently, so it would be closed-minded of you not to pay me for the kraken, just because this highly intriguing business opportunity sounds dumb to you. CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 06:23, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
Buddy, it's not that it sounds dumb. It's that it sounds "deep" while being undeniably dumb. I have 3 pieces of advice
  1. read my all time favorite scientific paper
  2. read my all time favorite scientific paper
  3. read my all time favorite scientific paper
Then you'll understand where I'm coming from. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 14:55, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
(Pay special attention to section 4.2, Ontological Confusions, because I think it's a point I've haphazardly tried to make to you in the past). ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 14:56, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Bones[edit]

Oxyaena Harass 06:00, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
Oh, a disco earworm, just what I wanted... Avida Dollarsher again 08:33, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

The "I thought this was supposed to be RATIONALwiki" article[edit]

Shouldn't we add to the examples section "The site is too centrist" and "The site is too communist"? Tinribmancer (talk) 09:13, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

This site is massively anti-communist, I mean just look at any article about it here. NekoDysk 13:19, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
I know, but because I read some comment a few topics up that some people accuse the site for being pro-communist... Tinribmancer (talk) 14:34, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
@Tinribmancer If it's recent it's probably because A), I exist. And B), we are collectively to the left of Hitler. And as we all know from the Alt-righters and assorted idiots (who have LOGIC and FACTS!!!) Being to the left of anything on the far right makes you a Bad Person(tm). ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 15:29, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
I mean, imagine what you'd think if you were stupid enough to have the perception that Obama was a socialist. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:47, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
This wiki is more socdem than anything else. Oxyaena Harass 16:51, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
Whose brilliant idea was it to make "social democrat" and "democratic socialist" different things? ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 16:55, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
Because they #are# different things (or at least WP thinks so). Anna Livia (talk) 18:19, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
Yes, and the joke I was trying to make is that it's a dumb distinction verbally. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 18:21, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

BEHOLD[edit]

The new and improved site notice!!! Oxyaena Harass 16:51, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

"Destroy Western Civilization"... Tinribmancer (talk) 17:00, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
Muahahahaa. Oxyaena Harass 17:04, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
This is something that communists and fascists have in common: They know how to literally destroy an entire civilization.. Tinribmancer (talk) 17:08, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
Is it? Communism has killed many people, but I can't think of a single case where it ended a civilization per se. Fascism you could make a case for, you know, based on the whole active genocide thing.
But the real killer of civilizations in history has been colonialism. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 17:16, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
A picnic did destroy a civilisation here, and a meeting in the woods destroyed the USSR. Anna Livia (talk) 18:07, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
USSR was a nation, but it wasn't a civilization. It's not like the end(or beginning) of the soviet era brought about a demise of Russian(or baltic or balkan) culture, language, arts, and history. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 18:47, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

I think the whole which is worse - fascism or communism is a lot of shite. despite being a horrorshow everywhere its tried, communism to me doesn't inherently mean millions will die. in places like western Europe, or the the us, home of the most ardent anti communists, its a pointless and meaningless endeavour which will never bare fruit. they sell some crappy newspapers, and considering the continued roll back of the welfare state, their only influence is a bogey man to warn against even the most minor improvements. fascism on the other hand is inherently about fucking people over, and is popular with fucknuts actually in power, is having a horrible influence on policy every where, and has some of the scarier thugs in grass roots. ardent anti communism may as well be ardent anti dalek for the actual 'threat' it represents, or just a convenient bogey man to justify their shitbaggery and self righteous 'struggle' AMassiveGay (talk) 19:08, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Jeffery Epstein: missional or tangentially relevant passing news[edit]

Should we have an article on the billionaire rape island extraordinaire whose actual behaviors is not unlike certain common conspiracy theories in some characteristics? Gross evil fucker with numerous connections to academic, political, and economic levers of power, masterminding a mass systemic pedophile rape island? Becoming rich mysteriously and without any notable merit or entrepreneurship? It's a news cycle item that's already dying down, but does the kind of similarity to the form of conspiracy theories while also being true merit an article? ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 16:54, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

We do cover the anti authoritarian aspect of the wiki. Guess this means people with a disgusting amount of political power is missional to the wiki. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 17:20, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
Scumbag though he is, and powerful though he may have been, I don't know that anything about the case was authoritarian in terms of ideology. There wasn't(at least not until the very recent hot takes started coming) any allegation that raping children was ideologically valid because the strong deserve power over the weak. It was something the conspirators did in secret knowing full damn well it was both illegal and wrong. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 17:42, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
Epstein though does seem to be an excellent example of the mechanisms that protect those with political connections. RipCityLiberal (talk) 18:02, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
The Epstein case may not have been authoritarian, but it was strongly anti-democratic. The rule of law is an important aspect of democracy. Epstein evaded the rule of law in the Florida case by manipulating powerful people as well as victims through threats, bribery and corruption. It is not much different than organized crime, for which we already have a page. Bongolian (talk) 18:27, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

"Destroy Western civilization"[edit]

Perhaps someone could take a look at that? - Immigrant laborer (talk) 18:13, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

It's there because someone(well, two someones) put it there? ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 18:15, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
It's annoying. Can we get rid of it, @Tinribmancer & @Oxyaena? Bongolian (talk) 18:29, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
@Bongolian Dysk and I put it up, Tinrib had nothing to do with it. Oxyaena Harass 19:22, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
OK, sorry for the confusion. I see that Western Civilization has been saved. Bongolian (talk) 19:26, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
Destroyed again. Bongolian (talk) 19:40, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
I did as instructed by this legal incitement and launched the nukes. Thank you for the guidance on where to direct my self-radicalized internet anger. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 20:30, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
is there time to beat one out before the bombs hit? it doesn't look like the ghouls or super mutant have much in the of a sex life and I might not get another chance. im not even sure ghouls have genitalia. I can deal with having no nose, but an eternity without even a hand shandy? the horror, the horror AMassiveGay (talk) 20:37, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
@AMassiveGay I'm pretty sure that Ghouls have genitalia, as there are a few Ghoulette prostitutes in New Vegas. Likewise, I'm fairly certain the super mutants either have no genitalia or are just sterile, per Fallout 1. RoninMacbeth (talk) 21:19, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
@RoninMacbeth Supermutants retain their genitalia, but lose all secondary sex characteristics, and are also rendered sterile as a result of the procedure. Oxyaena Harass 21:26, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
ive never seen ferals with their bits flapping as they rampaging toward you, and they'd be pretty obvious as it would be glowing like a light saber. fuck that shit. no wonder they are feral. id be furious AMassiveGay (talk) 21:31, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
@Bongolian I'm not a commie nor a kool-aid drinker. I even tried to undo it, since it annoyed me. But I had no idea how to do it. Tinribmancer (talk) 21:03, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

@Oxyaena STOP IT!! Tinribmancer (talk) 21:36, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

I found it funny too, but I'm probably going to avoid editing RW in public or citing it in discussions until the joke passes. I'm already paranoid enough of shoulder surfers seeing pages that look from a distance like a wall of text with a red box and a swastika, and automatically leaping to the worst interpretation. ℕoir LeSable (talk) 21:55, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Okay y'all can quit your whining it's fixed. Oxyaena Harass 22:16, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── @Bongolian You should see it now, it's definitely been improved. Oxyaena Harass 03:09, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Okaaaay. Bongolian (talk) 03:25, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

The "Anyone but Trump" Strategy is Not Going to Work[edit]

We're hard pressed to find a capable president, and I think we'd all agree we want one. The democratic party has put forward its own clown car to rival the 2016 Republican runoff. I can't believe they think this will work. If it's anyone but Trump, V2.0, there should be at most 4 candidates like there were in 2016, otherwise we're just stepping on toes and fucking our cousins. Either Democrats can't do the politics, or it's like it was in 2008 when Obama was up against McCain and Palin, when Republicans couldn't do the politics, or 20012, when Obama was up against Romney and Paul Ryan. Yeah, that Paul Ryan. I mean, this has always been a joke, right? Please, I'd rather think they are all up to some grander scheme than to look at them and say "Holy Hell, the amount of money they put into campaigning could change the world, these guys are idiots." Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:38, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

You're trying to think like a party with political goals. Think instead like a crowd of self-interested assholes who view the historic unpopularity of trump as their chance at greatness. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 02:48, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
Holy Hell. The amount of money they put into campaigning could change the world. These guys are idiots. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:57, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
I got shut down by a friend who was working on a local Gubernatorial race, I asked "Why not take some of that money, contract with some local businesses and fill some potholes?" He shut me down in a really frustrating way "Oh, you think going out and just patting out some concrete is going to work?" "No, but it might work better than a sign, cause at least it's gonna be there later." Dude laughed me off. I don't think sponsored works are a stupid way to go about campaigning. Especially since we lost to a "business man" and our city has mismanaged snow removal and road repair for 5 years straight. Nobody is happy about it, but we keep voting for those people who don't care and don't fight for local business. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 03:10, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
Will it require foreign influence to force the US to do the right thing for once? Or will some smart Americans be able to figure out what the colossal problem is and force the status quo to change? I'll bet China or Russia would want to do the former, albeit for their own interests. CommanderOzEvolved (talk) (contribs) 04:22, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
@Gol Sarnitt20012? Are you from the future where Obama's cyborg version/clone is in charge of the US Government? Tinribmancer (talk) 07:02, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
So you think that whatever any democrat has been saying on TV (reactions to the refugees, trump's racist tweets), has been just one big show for publicity and that they really don't care at all? Tinribmancer (talk) 07:02, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
I find myself sadly somewhat in agreement with Gol Sarnitt and ikanreed: The Democratic field of POTUS wannabes is ludicrously large and it smells of opportunism - at least when it comes to some of the entrants. Now, this doesn’t mean, as Tinribmancer seems to interpret, that they all only run or present their messages from a desire for publicity, but it is at least a contributing factor (more for some than for others).
Let’s face it; candidates like Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden were probably going to run no matter what, but the ridiculous ballooning of the field to more than 20 more than smacks of opportunism; especially when you’d be hard pressed to argue that they all really reflect different strains (ideologically, geographically etc.) within the Democratic Party. This doesn’t mean they’re all interchangeable - just note the differences between Biden, Buttigieg, Sanders, Warren and Yang, to take just a random sample. But with so many candidates you basically have to have some “doubles”.
Also, I don’t see the current Democratic contest as quite as clownish as the 2016 shit fest that was the last GOP nomination. Sure, some of the Democratic candidates are fairly left wing by US standards (meaning that they would be centre/centre-left/centre-right social liberals in much of Europe with a few social democrats in the mix), but remember the 2016 GOP field? Arguably, the most sane candidates were the likes of Pataki, Kasich, and Jeb Bush for crying out loud, of whom the two first basically never stood a chance and the last quickly flamed out. ScepticWombat (talk) 08:11, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
The problem with unsuitable opportunistic candidates who have no real policy and who are just running for the publicity is that they might win. Ah no. That was the last election with Trump.Hubert (talk) 11:25, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
isn't this the (only) benefit of such a long and drawn out electoral process? you've got over a year to whittle em down. everywhere else in he world would only get about a month AMassiveGay (talk) 11:58, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
and we still get joke or opportunist candidates. look at Corbyn in the labour party. AMassiveGay (talk) 12:00, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
I share your concerns, perhaps even moreso. How, unfortunate as it may be it is very likely that Trump will be re-elected in 2020, much to my eternal shame. I of course, will vote against Trump and for the candidate that I think is the most qualified, but I do not expect to win. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 12:41, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
The field will be thinned out by the third debate, which has much more stringent qualifications. So far, only five are in the position to qualify for that. Unless there's another breakout moment (like Harris out of the first debate) or maybe better polling for a couple of marginal candidates like O'Rourke and Castro, you aren't going to see too many other faces IMHO. At present, Biden, Harris, Sanders, and Warren are the clear front-runners -- the others aren't very close at all. Soundwave106 (talk) 14:59, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
So... the ones with the highest name recognition a year ago. Marrianne Williams has been consistently outpolling O'Rourke and Castro, probably entirely due to an irony campaign of overly online people. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:26, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
Y'all are missing the forest for the trees here. Although there are 23 Democrats running for president, 5 (Biden, Warren, Sanders, Harris, Mayor Pete) have raised $100 million combined and account for more than half of the support in polling. Sanders and Biden supports choose the other candidate as their second choice. Warren and Harris supporters choose the other as their second choice. Not to mention we are FIVE MONTHS AWAY from the first actual votes in this primary and 15 months out from Election day. SoundWave is correct that the field will likely cut significantly by August/September. Currently a lot of people feel like this is a crisis (which honestly it is) but there isn't an immediate solution here. It took time for 45 to rise. It will take time for him to fall.--RipCityLiberal (talk) 16:19, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
45? Tinribmancer (talk) 16:21, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── The forty-fifth president in the US. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 16:23, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

45 = Trump. Because saying his name is now problem. Apparently... ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 18:01, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
Call it the harrypotterification of the center. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 18:49, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Nerd[edit]

Has he gone and disappeared on us? Yikes. Oxyaena Harass 04:35, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Shouldn't you be happy? You and Avida Dollars were complaining several times about him changing titles in WIGO last month. Tinribmancer (talk) 07:05, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
We were. Most of the time he's fine, but sometimes he gets it wrong and won't stand to be corrected. He also seemed, in the last argument, to believe RW should be NPOV instead of SPOV, in order to attract more readers. Avida Dollarsher again 08:21, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
He's only been a way for a month and a half. He might just be taking a summer break. Spud (talk) 09:28, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
Probably because @Oxyaena and @Avida Dollars hounded him off. Nice job, idiots Nice job (talk) 12:38, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
I'll feign some distress for you. Oh no. How terrible. Another user who has been here a long time just stopped editing. How tragic and unprecedented. And such a nice one I always got along with. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 14:51, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
LOL. Oxyaena Harass 16:04, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

The police in my area are steadily becoming stupider[edit]

Fewer and fewer are obeying traffic laws along with not enforcing leash laws for dogs and well..........not doing the job that they are paid to do. How sad. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 13:03, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Good. Broken windows isn't a good enforcement paradigm. Also the police have ignored traffic laws as long as there have been police cars. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 14:50, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
Cosign the fuck out of this. --RipCityLiberal (talk) 15:43, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
So what? Police threatened to slap me and my mom with jailtime for being a "nuisance caller" to 911, simply because we called 911 more than once a year to deal with domestic violence. Oxyaena Harass 16:50, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
That sounds like the American police I know. Law as weapon against those they deem unworthy. Not a way to define moral boundaries explicitly in the hope of making justice fair. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 17:49, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
Can't say I agree. How police acts is really dependent on the department, resources allocated to them, and other factors such as being prepared to deal with everyone since our gun laws put them in every step of danger, and I feel all these generalizations about police are from confirmation bias and bad press. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 17:53, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
I have had one interaction with the police in my life, and included overt threats of arrest and jailtime over a procedural matter that was dismissed without fine or warning by a court official in 10 seconds flat upon seeing a single document. I don't think that's a particularly unique kind of interaction. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 18:01, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
Police brutality is a problem and many people have similar experiences, but to generalize it as a trait among American police and concluding they mistreat those they deem "unworthy" is pretty hasty. I've also noticed those that have negative interactions with police are more likely to generalize them like this when I feel we need to point out that there are 1.1 million of them and conduct can vary wildly by county. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 18:04, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
Overgeneralizing is bad, but there's not just personal anecdote at play here. One out of every four people in jail in the world are in the United States. Systemic problems with excessive force, over-armed police, and lack of prosecution of police misconduct are structural problems here. Mandatory sentencing minimums have created a prosecutorial environment where conviction for anything is life-destroying. Which makes it easier for police to hold that threat over peoples' heads. Cultural ideas such as the "thin blue line" are all but completely unopposed within police culture.
When I went to china, every single police station I went to(we had some paperwork to do) had signs up about how the government would pay you for leads on police corruption. Imagine that here. To say "Don't generalize" really needs me to actively see evidence showing reasons to trust police at this point. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 18:48, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Stephen Colbert's take on the Trump tweets[edit]

Laughing my ass off with this. Tinribmancer (talk) 18:40, 17 July 2019 (UTC)