Question Evolution! - CMI's Rebuttals to Responses to Questions 1 through 3
Creation Ministries International's Rebuttals to Responses to Questions 1 through 3 of its 15 Questions for Evolutionists
As with the questions themselves, CMI's rebuttals illustrate the great epistemological gulf between the discussants. The Question Evolution! Campaign is not concerned with justifying the truth claims that underlie CMI's religious objections to the theory of evolution. Rather, CMI engages in a negative apologetics calculated to cast as much doubt as possible on the Theory of Evolution. At times, by doggedly relying on cherry-picked and sometimes dated sources, CMI's rebuttals run contrary to its own interests by illustrating one of the most powerful central features of doing science: it's an iterative process that necessarily depends on continual critical evaluation of theories and data as the state of the art and knowledge advance. Creationists generally take the position that unanswered questions pose serious problems for the Theory of Evolution, rather than providing opportunities for the advancement of knowledge. While young earth creationists occasionally make truth claims that are susceptible to scientific investigation, their overall program is rooted in an unwavering belief in the truth of scripture. It is primarily concerned with finding evidence consistent with its interpretations of an ancient religious text and, therefore, will always lack the superior explanatory power of modern secular science.
This round of CMI's rebuttals was drafted by Jonathan Sarfati, a PhD physical chemist and prolific creationist author with a number of papers published in secular peer-reviewed journals; Robert Carter, a PhD marine biologist; Don Batten, a PhD agronomist and horticultural scientist with many secular peer-reviewed papers on non-creationist subjects relevant to his field; and Lita Cosner, MA theology.
Have a look at the original article: Question Evolution! - "15 critically important questions that evolutionists cannot adequately answer" and our responses to CMI's latest attempts to rebut answers to its questions:
- Question Evolution! - CMI's Rebuttals to General Objections to the 15 Questions
- Question Evolution! - CMI's Rebuttals to Responses to Questions 4 through 8
- Question Evolution! - CMI's Rebuttals to Responses to Questions 9 through 15
Question 1: How did life originate?
Answer 1: Abiogenesis is not relevant to the discussion of evolution—it is a separate topic (this has been a very common claim).
Rebuttal: No one claimed that abiogenesis was irrelevant to the evolution debate until evolutionists realized they were losing the debate on it. Indeed, abiogenesis is also often called ‘chemical evolution’ (see Natural selection cannot explain the origin of life and here just one example of a paper by evolutionists proving the point, titled, “On the applicability of Darwinian principles to chemical evolution that led to life”, International Journal of Astrobiology 3:45-53, 2004). It doesn’t matter how well one can or can’t explain how the first life could evolve, if you can’t explain how it got there in the first place, the theory is literally dead in the water (or the (non-existent) primordial soup, as the case may be). Notice also that, as we stated clearly above, creationists believe in changing allele frequencies over time. Therefore, since both sides claim this as part of their model, the debate must lie outside this area. Hence, the origin of life is fair game for discussions on whether or not evolution is true.
See our Origin of Life Q&A for more information.
|This is completely incorrect. For all evolution is concerned, God may have created the first cell. After that, however, evolution took over. Evolution explains the diversity and complexity of life, not the origins of life itself. Furthermore, creationists believe in changing allele frequencies over time, however they do not believe in "Macroevolution". This is where the debate lies, not abiogenesis. Furthermore, if the theory of evolution was "dead in the water" without abiogenesis, the same could be said about any other idea humans have come up with to explain observed phenomena, from science, to history, to Christianity itself. One can talk about what happens in steps 5-8 without knowing about steps 1-4, other than their end result.|
|Answer 2: Life/non-life isn’t a dichotomy. Rather, there are many examples of ‘proto-life’ such as viruses, prions, etc.||Again, evolution doesn't try to explain the origin of life; it explains how life changes over time once it exists.|
Answer 3: Some experiments show that the early earth’s atmosphere was optimal for life.
Rebuttal: And which studies would those be? The Miller-Urey experiment which used the wrong sort of atmosphere and produced more sludge than amino acids? Or the studies which show that the early atmosphere was oxygen-rich—not friendly for the origin of life. Or the ones that show that water would impede the formation of the hypothetical earliest cell, because it would favour hydrolysis over polymerization. Or the ones that show that information is a crucial component for life—the ‘software’ is just as important as the ‘hardware’, in other words—which gives the evolutionists the burden of showing how something so mind-bogglingly complex (such that we only are beginning to unravel some of the code) came about by random chance?
|Producing "more sludge than amino acids" is irrelevant to the significance of the Miller-Urey experiment. The use of the "wrong" atmosphere (which was correct to the extent of scientific knowledge on the subject at the time) is barely relevant; the significance of the Miller-Urey experiment is proof that the building blocks of life could form at all without supernatural intervention. Likewise further repeaters of the experiment have produced the necessary acids: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=primordial-soup-urey-miller-evolution-experiment-repeated|
Question 2: How did the DNA code originate?
Answer 1: This is not an evolution question, because evolution starts with an already-reproducing organism.
Rebuttal: But this is something evolution must assume. Leading philosopher Antony Flew lost his atheistic faith by considering (among other things):
If there’s no way for the DNA code to come about via natural processes, evolution is impossible. A huge problem is this: the DNA information requires complex decoding machines, including the ribosome, so it can be decoded into the specifications to build the proteins required for life, including enzymes. But the information required to build ribosomes is itself encoded on the DNA. So DNA information can’t be decoded without products of its translation, forming a ‘vicious circle’. And decoding machinery requires energy from ATP, built by ATP-synthase motors, built from instructions in the DNA decoded by ribosomes … ‘vicious circles’ for any materialistic origin theory.
|This is getting really tiring to refute. The first claim, made after the quote of Flew, on which this entire argument is predicated, is simply absolutely wrong. Whether the first cell was poofed into existence by God, or arrived on a meteor, or formed by natural processes is entirely, absolutely, totally irrelevant to whether evolution happens. Evolution describes what happens to life that exists, which means that it began no earlier than the origin of life by whatever means (and, according to modern molecular genetics, it appears to have begun quite a while after). If DNA could not possibly form by natural processes, that would constitute a refutation of abiogenesis. It would not refute the theory of evolution and it certainly would not prove CMI's claims about the origin of life any more than it would prove the Zoroastrian, Hindu, Shinto, Polynesian, Hopi or Aztec creation myths.|
Answer 2: Originally, life used RNA instead of DNA to encode information.
Rebuttal: First, where is the evidence for this, such as fossilized ancestral RNA life? Second, the RNA world hypothesis is fraught with difficulties. RNA is even less stable than DNA, and that is saying something—about a million DNA ‘letters’ are damaged in a typical cell on a good day, which then requires repair mechanisms to be in place (another problem for origin-of-life scenarios). And it is extremely unlikely that the building blocks for RNA would come about by undirected chemical interactions, and even if this happened, it would be even more improbable that the building blocks would self-assemble into any RNA molecule, let alone an informational one. And this is only the tip of the iceberg. See this article for more details, which discusses the objections of a major origin-of-life researcher to the ‘RNA world’ hypothesis.
|The likelihood increases exponentially when you add in more time. It is popular to say that life emerged soon after the Earth formed/cooled, but these scientists mean something on the order of hundreds of millions to billions of years. It also increases with more space; obviously origin of life studies take place within test tubes, but reality includes the volume of the ocean. Of course, many areas did not have the vital minerals, but during this time there were immense tides due to the Moon's proximity to Earth. These caused many nutrients to be mixed up countless times, and one of these times, somewhere, RNA could have, and did, form. All RNA is inherently informational. After that, this need not happen again because the RNA will make copies of itself.|
Answer 3: It is disingenuous to argue from the current DNA code, because the original code would have been much simpler.
Rebuttal: This is most disingenuous. So many evolutionists have appealed to the common DNA code to “prove” common ancestry. But now they are claiming that the first life had a different code not possessed by any living creature! But how could we go from the hypothetical simpler coding system to the current one? It would be like switching keys on a computer keyboard—the messages would become scrambled (as anyone who is accustomed to a QWERTY keyboard who has tried to use a non-QWERTY Latin keyboard would know only too well).
Actually, it has long been known that there are exceptions to the code, as we have pointed out (see The Unity of Life) and that is a problem for evolutionists. Richard Dawkins was recently stumped when “life-creator” Craig Venter pointed out that there were different codes—Dawkins has long taught that evolution was supported by a single code and used this to argue for the single (evolutionary, of course) origin of all life.
There is a certain minimum amount of information which would have to be encoded for any living thing to survive. Currently, the self-replicating organism with the least amount of genetic information is the Mycoplasma genitalium with 580,000 ‘letters’ coding for 482 proteins. But this can only survive as a parasite, so non-parasitical life would have to encode even more information. See How simple can life be?
|Consider yourself, a human being. Your genome contains approximately three billion base pairs. Now consider amoeba proteus, a microscopic single-celled organism. Surely you're more complex than this amoeba, right? Surely it takes more information to build you, right? Wrong. Amoeba proteus has a genome of 290 billion base pairs - 100 times more than you! Either the claim that complexity requires more "information" is wrong and/or the claim that there's no "junk DNA" in existence is wrong. CMI makes both claims, and the stark difference between the genomes of these two organisms is an insurmountable counterexample to both and indeed to literally every claim made by creationist "information theory".
CMI's second point is a red herring. Evolutionary biologists have long since known about the exceptions to the code; Richard Dawkin's mistake is irrelevant. Not only that, but the minor differences to a near universal code were predicted, based on the assumption of Common Descent, before it was cracked. What's more, they knew where, if there was going to be any differences, the variations would occur; mostly restricted to the higher taxonomic groups, such as Kingdoms and Phylums. The code, variations and all, follows the prediction of Common Descent. If the results pointed to most organisms having completely different codes, Common Descent would be falsified. Creation made no such prediction, because any result would fit. "Universal Code?" "Common Design" "We expect to see similar design from a designer". "Varied Code?" "Varied Design" "We expect variation from an omnipotent creator; why should he restrict himself to only one design"?http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html
Answer 4: The question of how the modern code emerged from these early predecessors is evolution itself. Random deviations in the nucleic acid structure would change the by-product produced, if the by-product was more efficient at replicating, it would overwhelm less efficient codes. This gradual change in the complexity of the underlying code is useful in explaining many aspects of biological theory. Such as why RNA is used as an intermediate between DNA and protein synthesis.
Rebuttal: Random deviations would randomly change the “by-product produced”, so they would disrupt all the proteins encoded. RNA is used as an intermediate because it is more labile; it’s optimal for the short time frames needed for cell communications. It is a hopeless candidate for hypothetical eons in a primordial soup.
Answer 5: The words ‘code’ and ‘language’ are only metaphors when applied to the DNA code, and they have no reality outside our own mental constructs. In reality, the whole thing is dependent on chemical properties.
Rebuttal: Secular scientists refer to the nucleobases of DNA as ‘letters’, so it’s hardly original to us. And we would agree that the workings of the code are due to chemical properties—we are not vitalists (see also Naturalism, Origins and Operational Science). But this doesn’t explain the origin of the code. Similarly, we believe that the workings of computer decoders can be explained totally by the laws of semi-conductor electron levels and other electrical properties, but these laws didn’t make the computer. Should we say then that there is no difference between a 500 GB hard drive and an old 2 MB one, because it has no reality outside our mind? Also, this is a rather petty thing to dispute, since it does not address any of the arguments from the pamphlet. One wonders why we received several objections of this nature.
|Scientists also use "letters" as a metaphor. Metaphors are used to make things easier to understand, not because they're literally correct.
For the millionth time, the origin of life (and its necessary bases) is beyond the scope of the theory of evolution. It falls under abiogenesis. Evolution doesn't explain how life arose but how it diversified and continues to diversify.Secondly the statement: " And we would agree that the workings of the code are due to chemical properties—we are not vitalists" Runs completely contrary to the previous assertion: "The code is a sophisticated language system with letters and words where the meaning of the words is unrelated to the chemical properties of the letters—just as the information on this page is not a product of the chemical properties of the ink (or pixels on a screen)." CMI is either unsure of their own stance on DNA or are just simply moving the goalposts and this writer suspects a combination of both. But if the latter is the case, then all that leaves for the argument is the notion that DNA is too complex to have evolved and as has been proven time and time again, complexity is not a barrier to evolution, it's expected.